The Emperor has no clothes! XPA's vs. AV receiver

[capn]

First, I really appreciate all of the feedback. I knew this topic would likely invoke some emotion, but I'm pleasantly surprised by the amount of useful feedback.

Anyway, I'm surprised to hear that putting the USP-1 in place of the XDA-1 might help the sound situation, but that is certainly easy enough for me to try. In fact, getting back to the surprise aspect of this, I thought I recalled Big Dan mentioning something on a long ago podcast about the release of the XSP-1 being delayed because they determined that their prototype wasn't good enough [when compared to the XDA-1 hooked directly to the amps]. I could definitely be mistaken about that.

Also, in response to another comment, when testing the Denon, I did disable the Audyssey stuff; I ran it in "pure direct" mode.

[monkumonku]

Jan 27, 2012 16:08:47 GMT -5 capn said:

First, I really appreciate all of the feedback. I knew this topic would likely invoke some emotion, but I'm pleasantly surprised by the amount of useful feedback.

Anyway, I'm surprised to hear that putting the USP-1 in place of the XDA-1 might help the sound situation, but that is certainly easy enough for me to try. In fact, getting back to the surprise aspect of this, I thought I recalled Big Dan mentioning something on a long ago podcast about the release of the XSP-1 being delayed because they determined that their prototype wasn't good enough [when compared to the XDA-1 hooked directly to the amps]. I could definitely be mistaken about that.

Also, in response to another comment, when testing the Denon, I did disable the Audyssey stuff; I ran it in "pure direct" mode.

Most definitely you should hook the ERC-1 analog to the USP-1 and then to your amps. The XDA-1 is not going to do anything to improve the signal and you can leave it out of the chain.

When I had my USP-1, it was dead silent - turn up the volume all the way and there was no hiss. It's a very nice piece of equipment. Like I said, I regret selling it.

[audiofile]

I'm using an Integra DHC-40.1 as a pre/pro with the Audyssey system on, except for my 2-channel Sonos listening, and I use an XDA-1 to receive the signal from the Sonos system, then I send that to the Integra.

Prior to that I used my Denon AVR-2805 as the pre-amp and I do notice a difference. The Direct mode works best for my digital music. Problem is, now it has me wondering about lossless files, a home server, etc....for the music...hehehehe...does this ever stop???

[thepcguy]

[bitsandbytes]

Are your XPA-1's plugged directly into your wall outlets - or are you using a power conditioner which does not limit the current?

[Golden Ear]

Jan 27, 2012 19:38:47 GMT -5 bitsandbytes said:

Are your XPA-1's plugged directly into your wall outlets - or are you using a power conditioner which does not limit the current?

This is very important because my UPA-2 was connected to monster power and it has high current outlet and the sound was dull. One day I was skeptical and I said to connect to wall out and guess what violla!! the sound is smooth and airy. I read that UPA-2 has power surge and conditioning so it's safe to connect it directly. I spend more time listening than ever before and eventually all my gear will be replace with emotiva.

[Dr. Feel Good]

Here is my two cents 
For starters you have a very good Denon AV receiver. I personally have the older AVR 3300 from the Last Century (literally) and I had it connected to a set of DCM Time Window 7 Speaker with a 700 WPC range w/a 92 DB sensitivity.
I have 2 Carver A 500x amps running in monoblock setup connected, and when I did my A/B test years ago when I was moving I came to the same conclusion so much so that I disconnected the carvers, but then I started noticing that when I turn it up a bit my sound starts to diminish, that base isn’t always the same..etc. so the carvers went back and I’ve NEVER looked back since.
Now I wish I had the funds for the XP1’s  .
So on to my most resent upgrades. I got the XDA for my computer then I was disappointed to find out it has only a 16bid USB (damn you emo!...and I say that w/love). But I kept it & connected it to my $1500 Rotel 991ae CD Player… after much debating and borrowing other peoples ears, came to the conclusion that w/the XDA I was getting better Mids & clearer base, and wider range highs.
So I ordered the USP 1…. This is when I borrowed a friend’s multi source selector switch (from Radio shack) and plugged my XDA & CDP w/a Y splitter into the Denon and the USP and their outputs into the source multiplier and then that into the Carvers. Again, disappointment at first….kicked myself a few times….but kept at it, borrowed a few friends again…and there it was unanimously, the USP 1 gave me better sound overall…and now that It’s been in the system for a few weeks, it’s really shining. I am not missing any of my equalizer settings of the Denon at all
So in conclusion…do not sell any of your gear for you’ll be sorely disappointed and find yourself spending even more $ trying to replace it all, although you have a good AV, but it’s not a Denon 5805 or AVP-A1HDCI….BUT know this, the Integra DHC..will make your system shine, it is made to work w/XPA’s caliber gear, you may come to find out that you ERT8.3’s are your new weak links….
Sell the Denon, and get the Integra and be the Envy of many ….including myself 
I still LOVE Denon, and I’ve hear from Integra owners that Integra has a low output voltage on their pre amp outputs than usual. How about a Denon AVR 4810 CI, you’ll be set for a lifetime, I know I am going to continue using my AVR 3300 in a 5.1 system for sound only.

Doc!

[Deleted]

Capn, I feel you will most likely not hear any detectable difference with most source material at reasonable levels. I know "reasonable levels" is a very vague term but to me it means a lot as a far as amps and any possible audible difference is concerned.

In your comparison I feel you will most likely hear any audible difference when your 3311ci has reached or nearing clipping and has audible distortion. This will happen only if you have source music with very high dynamic range and you are playing back at very loud levels.

I live in a condo and very seldom am allowed to max out the volume. perhaps other can recommend CD's with max dynamic range. Several that come to mind are:

.....1812 Overture, Telarc, Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra with digital canons.

.....Pomp & Pipes by Dallas Wind Symphony, HDCD.

.....Planet Drum, Mickey hart

Some members might have others. These types of very dynamic recordings will strain your amps to the max and at maximum volumes will likely drive your Denon 3311 into audible distortion. Many times folks will perceive this as "ear bleeding levels." They feel they have reach the threshold of pain when actually they are suddenly strongly irritated by the onset of amplifier distortion. Try this one amp at a time. If you feel the Denon might be audibly running out of gas, take an SPL reading. Play the same track with the XPA-1 at the same volume and see if you now notice a difference. It is very likely that you will realize perhaps 4-5 decibels more clean output from the XPA-1. Many folks seldom have this situation where the amp is stressed to the max. But in the occasional times that you do then you will realize the difference in the huge additional headroom from the XPA-1.

Most music CD's are too compressed to reach these large differences in dynamic range to demonstrate this. However, there are lots of labels and recordings with significant dynamic range that can separate the men from the boy in amps. Music with very low bass is extra helpful as it takes much more amp power to reproduce the lowest bass. Try Taiko Drum (large Japanese drums) recordings as a good test.

[capn]

The saga continues....

Let me first address several comments/questions:

1. Per the suggestion of one or two of you, I did remove the XDA-1 from test setup#1 and replaced it with the USP-1. I still don't understand why that should improve things and I can't say that it has [improved things], but it sounds fine.

2. I do NOT have the two XPA-1's hooked directly into the wall outlets. They are the only two devices connected to a Monster HDP-900G surge protector (I feel the need to defend any purchase of Monster gear, so let me point out that I bought that when it was a gold box deal on amazon one day). Anyway, the use of the Monster surge protector is for convenience sake only (e.g. making more outlets available).

For grins, I plugged one of those Kill-a-watt outlet meters directly into the wall and then plugged the Monster surge protector (with the two XPA-1's connected to it) into the the Kill-a-watt meter.

With the volume turned up as high as I could stand it, I'm drawing between 5+ and 6+ amps (500+ to 600+ watts) for the combination of both amps, so I don't think the Monster is choking the XPA-1's.

3. Undoubtedly, it stands to reason that if I crank up the volume high enough, the Denon will cry uncle before the XPA-1's. I haven't verified this yet through an actual test, but I know this to be true. Heck, that little test I described in #2 above to see if the surge protector was limiting the current would have likely exposed the Denon as I was running the XPA-1's in the 200-300 watt (consumption) range. The issue of course is that the volume I used in #2 above is NOT my normal listening volume and other than setting up for an all-house party, I can't imagine I'll really need all that power.

4. So, at the moment, I'm inclined to agree with several of you that have pointed out that the Denon unit is pretty darn good in its own right and it's probably all I really need. I'm definitely scuttling any plans to purchase the Integra DHC-80.3, but I haven't yet decided what all I will sell out of my current setup. Maybe I'll hang on to the USP-1 and XPA-1's as a pure stereo setup and get rid of the XPA-5 (and let the Denon handle those channels instead).

[knucklehead]

An excellent primer on the problems with compressed CDs can be found here: georgegraham.com/compress.html
Most people think their CDs are uncompressed - not quite true and you can test your CD collection for compression. The louder one plays without the volume being changed is a good indication of 'engineering' the sound - compression.
An excellent example of a well engineered CD is Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon - and one of my favorites.
I live in my own home - and I can blast the music at midnight if I want.

Sorry Chuckie...

[roadrunner]

Capn

I have read lots of threads where using Monster surge protectors have had a negative impact on the sound quality of their music. After plugging their power amps into the wall outlet they reported obtaining significantly better sound quality. I think I have even read several such posts on the Emotiva Lounge.

When you used your Killawatt to check total current draw you are not revealing whether you would get better results by circumventing the Monster surge protector. That tells you nothing about what is happening dynamically. You may want to try connecting direct to the wall outlet to to see if it improves your listening pleasure.

[Golden Ear]

Jan 28, 2012 16:46:48 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

Capn

I have read lots of threads where using Monster surge protectors have had a negative impact on the sound quality of their music. After plugging their power amps into the wall outlet they reported obtaining significantly better sound quality. I think I have even read several such posts on the Emotiva Lounge.

When you used your Killawatt to check total current draw you are not revealing whether you would get better results by circumventing the Monster surge protector. That tells you nothing about what is happening dynamically. You may want to try connecting direct to the wall outlet to to see if it improves your listening pleasure.

Before, everything was connected to monster power hts 2500 including video and amps on high current outlet. Everything I hear was dull on my sound system particularly music and my boombox sounds alot better. The monster power is good on video oriented material as they are not high powered unit. I unplug all of my audio and connect to power strip that doesn't have EMI/RFI filtering and violla! The sounds came alive as if blanket where remove from the speakers. If my system get destroyed by surge so be it instead I don't get to enjoy my system. ;D

[hberg32]

Has anyone using a Denon 3311 as a pre-out found that the volume seems to be very low and that the unit has an annoying habit of resetting the volume to -40db when changing inputs? I find it exceedingly strange that the pre-outs on this box aren't line level. To compensate I turn the unit up to about +15db then do adjustments with the final amp's volume.

I've come to loathe and despise this Denon. After its NIC/HDMI board blew I borrowed an old NAD amp while the Denon was in the shop and was utterly blown away by the NAD's performance. It did more with 2 channels than the Denon does with 6. So now I'm using the Denon as a pre-amp in front of an NAD 7100 and it can't even do THAT right!!

Henry

[garbulky]

First, if you don't hear a difference, that is GREAT! You just saved tons of money!!!
Used markets really deprecate gear so let's make sure that you gave it the fairest test. Though you may be drawing 500-600 watts out of the monster or the wall, there are microdynamics that could stress an amp pretty hard for very short periods of time that may not be visible on the meters. I too would recommend taking out the Monster. Emotiva says that their systems are fully protected and do not require power conditioners/ similar units, and to plug all their stuff directly into the wall to prevent any possible decrease in audio quality created by these dynamics. They say this at the risk of alienating customers that stick firm to very expensive power conditioners. So I would certainly listen to emotiva if they felt the need to clarify this.
Also, I don't know the music material or CD's you are listening to but lots of recent CD's have compressed dynamic range due to the loudness wars to make things sound better on poor quality audio systems and radio.
An example of compressed dynamic range would be empire state of mind and some RHCP songs and a good amount of pop, rock, and rap. It's unfortunate. Anyway, this dynamic compression would also not highlight the benefits of using a powerful amp with lots of headroom.
Movies tend to have tremendous dynamic range so they would get around this compression issue, but a few caveats. Any Transformers blu-ray will leave you breathless with the sheer amount of power it throws at you. Unfortunately, I don't think it's the most ideal thing to test difference in sound quality. Most movies aren't necessarily as detailed or have audio in the music format that we are used to evaluating with the same kind of quality as well produced music CD's (and higher quality material). I don't have enough experience to recommend a particular CD, somebody else maybe able to help you out with that.

ALSO, did you make sure that your XDA-1 was set to 80 when connected to the USP-1?

[Golden Ear]

Many people who purchase XDA-1 also purchase USP-1 for the purpose of analog bass management provided by USP-1 as well as to compensate the bits lose when XDA-1 set lower than 50. It has been said that XDA-1 is not loseless due to digital volume instead of an analog. We all know direct path (XDA direct to XPA) signal is the best connection for maximum signal purity but with such issue there would be a compromise that we all have to live in. Some people say using USP-1 in the mix produce same result as XDA-1 direct to XPA's. Of coure, your miles may vary from system and your ear. When I get my XDA-1, I will connect directly to the amp and do critical listening. I will add Marantz to the mix if I I find missing bits at low level. At lease, I have a preamp to use just in case a problem arise on the equation.

[jdskycaster]

As stated previously I use the 3311 as a pre/pro and have not experienced any volume/gain issues using it as such. Everytime I power on the unit it defaults to the previous volume set for that input.

[Eli & Oscar]

My USP-1 + UPA-1 combo sounds significantly better than the old Yamaha RX-V663 AVR I was using as pre & power prior to acquiring the Emo gear.
Why? Because the Emo stuff is: quieter; more dynamic; more powerful.
It's really quite simple.
So there's my opinion on the issue, worth what you paid for it. ;-P

[bitsandbytes]

Jan 28, 2012 12:42:56 GMT -5 capn said:

The saga continues....

Let me first address several comments/questions:

1. Per the suggestion of one or two of you, I did remove the XDA-1 from test setup#1 and replaced it with the USP-1. I still don't understand why that should improve things and I can't say that it has [improved things], but it sounds fine.

2. I do NOT have the two XPA-1's hooked directly into the wall outlets. They are the only two devices connected to a Monster HDP-900G surge protector (I feel the need to defend any purchase of Monster gear, so let me point out that I bought that when it was a gold box deal on amazon one day). Anyway, the use of the Monster surge protector is for convenience sake only (e.g. making more outlets available).

For grins, I plugged one of those Kill-a-watt outlet meters directly into the wall and then plugged the Monster surge protector (with the two XPA-1's connected to it) into the the Kill-a-watt meter.

With the volume turned up as high as I could stand it, I'm drawing between 5+ and 6+ amps (500+ to 600+ watts) for the combination of both amps, so I don't think the Monster is choking the XPA-1's.

3. Undoubtedly, it stands to reason that if I crank up the volume high enough, the Denon will cry uncle before the XPA-1's. I haven't verified this yet through an actual test, but I know this to be true. Heck, that little test I described in #2 above to see if the surge protector was limiting the current would have likely exposed the Denon as I was running the XPA-1's in the 200-300 watt (consumption) range. The issue of course is that the volume I used in #2 above is NOT my normal listening volume and other than setting up for an all-house party, I can't imagine I'll really need all that power.

4. So, at the moment, I'm inclined to agree with several of you that have pointed out that the Denon unit is pretty darn good in its own right and it's probably all I really need. I'm definitely scuttling any plans to purchase the Integra DHC-80.3, but I haven't yet decided what all I will sell out of my current setup. Maybe I'll hang on to the USP-1 and XPA-1's as a pure stereo setup and get rid of the XPA-5 (and let the Denon handle those channels instead).

I commend you for experimenting with the Kill-O-Watt meter. There is no need to defend Monster products. I have one of their HDMI cords, an interconnect and a Monster power center which I use to protect my components (except for my XPA amps).

Please try connecting both your XPA-1's into a wall outlet. Run an extension cord temporarily if necessary to power up your other components and see how you like it. This should expand the dynamic range and bass slam significantly. Try also playing a blu-ray concert.

Not everyone can hear the difference. If it sounds the same to you or the difference is only marginal, at least you will have tried - and you know you will not be selling your amps prematurely.

[solidstate]

For those people that don't think digital volume hurts SQ!

www.esstech.com/PDF/digital-vs-analog-volume-control.pdf

This is why on the XMC-1 it will be using a CS3310 chained for the channel volumes in the main zone. These are after the DAC and operate as analog resistor volumes even though they are digitally controlled and it's an IC in a SOIC. I think you can chain four of them and for true balance out there would be two CS33310s per channel for a total of four CS3310 volume ICs for the left right. It's serial controlled. For a truly balanced design on the volume the XMC-1 would have to use two CS3310s per channel or 14 of them for the main zone to make it truly balanced. I hope at the least the mains use four of them and go pseudo for the rest. Actually LCR should be truly balanced I don't care if the rest is pseudo. I'm DYING to see real pictures of it's output stage and analog section!

At least I hope they use four and not two in pseudo-balanced mode!

I hope the XMC-1 is TRULY DIFFERENTIAL from DAC to +4dBu and that it has a great I/V !!!

[capn]

2013 update: Last year, I started this thread by stating that I could not hear the difference between the sound produced by my Denon AVR3311CI integrated amp and that produced by my Emotiva XPA-1's and XPA-5. Here it is now a year later and I feel compelled to provide an update.

Sometime starting about April of last year, I developed a loud and constant ringing in my left ear (and no, it wasn't the result of my running sound tests between my AVR and my amps . Now I REALLY can't tell the difference given that I have to overcome this 50 dB high-pitched whine. This is something I wouldn't wish on anyone. When I used to see those commercials on TV advertising cures for ringing in the ears, I thought the whole thing was made up. Unfortunately, it is real.

While I can't identify the specific cause of my problem, I can implore all of you to take care of your ears; they already naturally deteriorate with age and you should make sure you're not doing anything to make them worse. Wear ear protection whenever you mow the lawn, use a blower or other loud and/or droning equipment, and attend concerts (I'm not suggesting you wear the over-the-ear protection at the concert, but you should wear the ear-plug type protection especially if you're near the stage).

Okay, I'm done preaching.

- Reverend Capn

P.S. Incidentally, my Emotiva gear has been boxed up for the past 9 months (more the result of my move to a new home than to this ringing deal), but I plan to sell it when I can get around to it since I can't really enjoy it anymore. I was thinking Ebay, but if any of you know of a better forum for selling this type of gear, please respond and let me know.