UMC-1 distortion issues

[Entity]

And now if we could get a response on the broken enhanced bass ;D

[rob80b]

Jun 5, 2012 10:21:59 GMT -5 KeithL said:

EMoQ and multiple runs.

Note: When you run EMoQ multiple times, you MUST always do a Load Defaults before EACH time you run it. Not only will running EMoQ multiple times one after another not do a better job (EMoQ is not designed to average multiple runs or anything like that), but it can actually sometimes cause odd results, which may include distortion or "odd" results. This happens because "junk data" accumulates in the data buffers; which is why we tell you to clear the UMC between runs.

Hi Keith

Thanks for the heads up, does that also include manual adjustments, I would assume that it does but maybe I'm incorrect on that assumption.
"This happens because "junk data" accumulates in the data buffers; which is why we tell you to clear the UMC between runs."
Maybe this is what is also causing a few hiccups elsewhere?

Also as a new user I was looking for a reset just for the EQ, wouldn't the "Load Defaults" necessitate redoing all your setups?

Robert

[Maus]

I've had this issue with UMC-1 since the beginning (that is for about a year and a half now) and it is the worst of the problems (and there are many with UMC-1). It happens mainly with PCM sources, although sometimes also with Dolby Digital or DTS or other surround formats. It is digital clipping and I believe it was also discussed on Audioholics forum when UMC-1 was reviewed there. It was written there that none of the speakers should be set above 0 dB, and I've tried that and reduced all levels below 0 dB and for a while it was a little better, but now it happens even after that. And the weird thing is, it does not happen across all spectrum, but the distortion is evident at certain frequencies in music, e.g. certain guitar, sound effect and so on. Which suggests it is certainly a software and decoder problem.

So now I have the front three channels connected directly from the Oppo BDP-93 analog output to UPA-5 inputs, and surrounds and subwoofers are going from UMC-1 to UPA-5. This way I can avoid distortion, for now, before it appears also in rear channels, as it has before the latest firmware.

All in all, I believe UMC-1 is a product that should have never been sold. The analog part is as good as we know it from the Emotiva amplifiers and the sound quality is undisputable, but the digital part never worked and never will. And this digital clipping issue is one the worst aspects of it, it has successfully killed my joy of listening to music. At least Emotiva recognised that and they've completely changed the platform, so hopefully XMC-1 will be trouble free.

[roadrunner]

Maus

You may have missed it, but Emotiva posted that the digital distortion problem was a result of the Cirrus DSP chipset incorrectly decoding the data. Emotiva had to totally rewrite portions of the microcode to fix the issues the Cirrus DSP was causing. If you have the latest FW installed and still experience the digital clipping you should contact Emotiva Tech Support. I have not had any distortion with decoding movies in long time. Even before Emotive rewrote the microcode I could eliminate ithe digital clipping by lowering the EQ such that no band was boosted more than 2 dB. When using EQ I seldom boosted any freqency range while tweaking the settings.

In the early days, the UMC-1 experience a lot of problems as you describe above, but it had been many months since I had seen such posts here on the Lounge. I recently played Master and Commander The Far Side of the World and the soundtracks was totally awesome, not a hint of any distortion.

[rob80b]

Jun 5, 2012 16:22:54 GMT -5 Maus said:

I've had this issue with UMC-1 since the beginning (that is for about a year and a half now) and it is the worst of the problems (and there are many with UMC-1). It happens mainly with PCM sources, although sometimes also with Dolby Digital or DTS or other surround formats. It is digital clipping and I believe it was also discussed on Audioholics forum when UMC-1 was reviewed there. It was written there that none of the speakers should be set above 0 dB, and I've tried that and reduced all levels below 0 dB and for a while it was a little better, but now it happens even after that. And the weird thing is, it does not happen across all spectrum, but the distortion is evident at certain frequencies in music, e.g. certain guitar, sound effect and so on. Which suggests it is certainly a software and decoder problem.

So now I have the front three channels connected directly from the Oppo BDP-93 analog output to UPA-5 inputs, and surrounds and subwoofers are going from UMC-1 to UPA-5. This way I can avoid distortion, for now, before it appears also in rear channels, as it has before the latest firmware.

The distortion has again raised it's ugly head and like maus said it's mostly with PCM.
My setup it fairly straight forward using just the Sony BDP and the Apple TV to watch movies, I just tried adjusting the sub's output level,(EQ is flat as I have the the LFE out going to my Velodyne SMS-1 and then to the sub.(the rest of my equipment is listed below) when the distortion set in.
Turned the UMC-1 off from the back for a bit but the distortion was still there, turned it off and unplugged it again and now it seems ok but it still a bit unnerving for a seasoned audiophile just getting his feet wet in HT.
I did a refresh of the .19 FW earlier on in the week and things worked great but slowly the have bugs started to creep back in.
Maybe Keith can chime in here as I know the topic has been brought up over and over again from some users, just curious if some of the earlier units may have had a buggy board that may have been the culprit as the problem appears not to be wide spread.
Haven't really tried the EMO-Q yet as the mic with the unit was not working and Emotiva are sending me up a new one.
So do all units have this trait and is there a possible definitive solution as obviously not all users appear to have this problem.
Anyway I really would like to hear from those who may have had a similar situation which got resolved.

Thanks

Robert

[Pauly]

No, not all of the units share this trait. The only time I've experienced distortion, was after running EmoQ with an early FW version back in late 2010. Shortly after that it's been pretty smooth sailing for me ever since.

[rob80b]

In communication with Keith he did mention that in all likely hood that it may be a software glitch/temporary corruption that should have been eradicated with the newer FW. I'm fairly computer literate but sometimes one may need to do the FW update or an OS a few times to clear up an imbedded problem.
Now that I think about it, what was interesting (and I think this what happened before) was without changing anything was that the volume from Direct PCM appeared to have increased prior to the distortion, normally when watching movies I would turn up the UCM-1 to about 60 but today it was way too loud, so it was in most likelihood over riding the input levels (a no no for digital) to distortion, so obviously a bug there.

I'll try another FW install anfd keep my fingers crossed.

[rob80b]

OK, I'm back back to square one after re-installing the FW once more, oddly I had two run-time errors on the DSP install this time, I'll try the alternative method next time.
Everything thing appears to be running up to speck, so I've only configured my inputs and speaker distances and left everything else enough alone.
One thing though, while doing the install I was listening to music with my Bryston BP25 Pre back in the chain, the UMC-1 might be fun for movies but I have to honestly say it really is still only mid-fi for pure musically enjoyment, but then again the UMC-1 only costs just a bit more than a Bryston remote (although the Emotiva remotes are IMHO on par) so the UMC-1 is definitely a bargain for what it does do, that is, when it does it.

Robert

[rob80b]

Jun 8, 2012 20:26:11 GMT -5 rob80b said:

normally when watching movies I would turn up the UCM-1 to about 60 but today it was way too loud, so it was in most likelihood over riding the input levels (a no no for digital) to distortion, so obviously a bug there.

I'll try another FW install anfd keep my fingers crossed.

I should mention movies are now back at 60 on the dial after the re-install so the bug, what ever it is, is causing the volume in the digital processing to unexpectedly increase most likely prior to the DAC conversion.

Robert

[Pauly]

Robert, I would just send it back to Emo. I'm willing to bet that there's something wrong with it. There's just no reason to go through all of this.

[roadrunner]

Robert,

I have to agree that it sounds like you have a defective board in your UMC-1. I'd say you have more than your share of problems with it corrupting the FW and/or user settings. I tweaked my UMC-1 a lot while sculpting the sound to provide the best sound possible and have never experienced the corruption you are dealing with.

As Keithemo pointed out that Emotiva had a batch of bad boards that exhibited these sort of issues. I am afraid that you may have one of them in your UMC-1. It is time that you get to fully enjoy the sound quality that the UMC-1 is capable of delivering.

[rob80b]

Jun 9, 2012 1:34:22 GMT -5 roadrunner said:

Robert,
.............
As Keithemo pointed out that Emotiva had a batch of bad boards that exhibited these sort of issues. I am afraid that you may have one of them in your UMC-1. It is time that you get to fully enjoy the sound quality that the UMC-1 is capable of delivering.

Hi roadrunner

Hadn't seen Keith mention anything about bad boards, just earlier FW versions. (although there are 120 pages to go through in the processor section ).

Jun 5, 2012 10:16:27 GMT -5 KeithL said:

PLEASE READ

In some of the older firmware versions, there were issues with the the DSP signal levels that would cause distortion if the EQ was set such that it increased the overall signal level - which would be the case if several bands were boosted (the output wasn't normalized properly). The short-term solution was to avoid using boost in the EQ and stick to cut (and, if EMoQ boosted some bands, lower all bands by an equal amount until the adjustments were all cuts). This issue has been corrected, and should be gone in v .19 (the current version). IF you re-install an older version of firmware you may re-introduce the problem (and the distortion), so it's not a good idea to do so.

I'll play closer attention (remember I'm new at this) to which adjustments I've been making although they've been minimal and see if the problem arises again.

Robert

[rob80b]

Just sat down to listen to Feist's "The Reminder" hookup was direct from the Bryston BCD-1 through the analogue stereo mode, sadly totally un-listenable, once Feist hit those top notes distortion set in big time, direct mode appeared to be just ok, so I can rule out the HDMI, so blame can sadly be laid on on the DSP.
I'll contact Emotiva tomorrow and see if we can resolve the issue because it starting to make this UMC-1 totally unusable.

Robert

[suffolk112000]

Yup... call em tomorrow.
Let us know what advice they give.
Hopefully you'll just get a new UMC-1.

[audiobuff1974]

I noticed tonite when i play a cd through analog and set to stereo the sound is very muddy but when i click direct its much better. I keep the EMO Q off when i play cds so that isnt the issue.

[KeithL]

Yes, the Load Defaults wipes all user settings.

Actually, the issue I mentioned is specific to automatic processes like EMoQ, which store data in various buffers as part of their operation. Manual adjustments shouldn't cause that particular issue, although doing a Load Defaults sometimes fixes various other similar issues as well.

There is no "reset to flat" button for the individual equalizers.

Jun 5, 2012 15:22:37 GMT -5 rob80b said:

Jun 5, 2012 10:21:59 GMT -5 KeithL said:

EMoQ and multiple runs.

Note: When you run EMoQ multiple times, you MUST always do a Load Defaults before EACH time you run it. Not only will running EMoQ multiple times one after another not do a better job (EMoQ is not designed to average multiple runs or anything like that), but it can actually sometimes cause odd results, which may include distortion or "odd" results. This happens because "junk data" accumulates in the data buffers; which is why we tell you to clear the UMC between runs.

Hi Keith

Thanks for the heads up, does that also include manual adjustments, I would assume that it does but maybe I'm incorrect on that assumption.
"This happens because "junk data" accumulates in the data buffers; which is why we tell you to clear the UMC between runs."
Maybe this is what is also causing a few hiccups elsewhere?

Also as a new user I was looking for a reset just for the EQ, wouldn't the "Load Defaults" necessitate redoing all your setups?

Robert

[KeithL]

The original issue (with certain EQ settings - notably boosts - causing distortion) has been eliminated with a firmware update. It was due to a firmware bug where the signal level wasn't properly normalized after the boost was applied.

There is no "bad board" that is routinely causing problems. In fact, the hardware on the UMC-1 is pretty reliable (as is the current firmware). With certain notable exceptions, most of the problems that occur are usually either caused by occasional firmware glitches, most of which are cured by a Load Defaults or a reload, or by isolated hardware failures, which DO NOT apply to other users.

The analog inputs on the UMC-1 go to an active component. This means that, unlike on old-time preamps and receivers, where the analog inputs go first to a passive attenuator (a pot), the analog inputs on the UMC-1 CAN be overloaded by too high an input signal. In that case, the solution is to reduce the level of the input signal. (If this happens at low signal levels, it might indicate a hardware problem.) This ONLY happens with analog inputs.

Digital inputs are different, and cannot overload in this manner. If a digital input has audio signal, and no dropouts, then the hardware cannot be overloading. In that case, the problem is most like something related to firmware, and will probably be cured by a Load Defaults or even a firmware update or reload.

Any time you see a situation where powering down the unit makes a problem go away, then the problem is most likely firmware related (since the firmware is reloaded into operational memory when you turn the unit back on). In those cases, if it doesn't recur, then no action is necessary. if the same problem does recur, then a Load Defaults, or even a reload of the firmware may well eliminate it permanently. Of course, if it remains after that, then a call to support is probably in order.

It is important NOT to confuse problems that occur only with analog inputs, or
only with digital inputs, or with both. The causes and solutions are almost always different for the two.

Jun 8, 2012 19:48:42 GMT -5 rob80b said:

Jun 5, 2012 16:22:54 GMT -5 Maus said:

I've had this issue with UMC-1 since the beginning (that is for about a year and a half now) and it is the worst of the problems (and there are many with UMC-1). It happens mainly with PCM sources, although sometimes also with Dolby Digital or DTS or other surround formats. It is digital clipping and I believe it was also discussed on Audioholics forum when UMC-1 was reviewed there. It was written there that none of the speakers should be set above 0 dB, and I've tried that and reduced all levels below 0 dB and for a while it was a little better, but now it happens even after that. And the weird thing is, it does not happen across all spectrum, but the distortion is evident at certain frequencies in music, e.g. certain guitar, sound effect and so on. Which suggests it is certainly a software and decoder problem.

So now I have the front three channels connected directly from the Oppo BDP-93 analog output to UPA-5 inputs, and surrounds and subwoofers are going from UMC-1 to UPA-5. This way I can avoid distortion, for now, before it appears also in rear channels, as it has before the latest firmware.

The distortion has again raised it's ugly head and like maus said it's mostly with PCM.
My setup it fairly straight forward using just the Sony BDP and the Apple TV to watch movies, I just tried adjusting the sub's output level,(EQ is flat as I have the the LFE out going to my Velodyne SMS-1 and then to the sub.(the rest of my equipment is listed below) when the distortion set in.
Turned the UMC-1 off from the back for a bit but the distortion was still there, turned it off and unplugged it again and now it seems ok but it still a bit unnerving for a seasoned audiophile just getting his feet wet in HT.
I did a refresh of the .19 FW earlier on in the week and things worked great but slowly the have bugs started to creep back in.
Maybe Keith can chime in here as I know the topic has been brought up over and over again from some users, just curious if some of the earlier units may have had a buggy board that may have been the culprit as the problem appears not to be wide spread.
Haven't really tried the EMO-Q yet as the mic with the unit was not working and Emotiva are sending me up a new one.
So do all units have this trait and is there a possible definitive solution as obviously not all users appear to have this problem.
Anyway I really would like to hear from those who may have had a similar situation which got resolved.

Thanks

Robert

[Entity]

The original issue (with certain EQ settings - notably boosts - causing distortion) has been eliminated with a firmware update.

And yet it still occurs for several of us. Odd.

[rob80b]

Jun 11, 2012 9:12:11 GMT -5 KeithL said:

The original issue (with certain EQ settings - notably boosts - causing distortion) has been eliminated with a firmware update. It was due to a firmware bug where the signal level wasn't properly normalized after the boost was applied.

There is no "bad board" that is routinely causing problems. In fact, the hardware on the UMC-1 is pretty reliable (as is the current firmware). With certain notable exceptions, most of the problems that occur are usually either caused by occasional firmware glitches, most of which are cured by a Load Defaults or a reload, or by isolated hardware failures, which DO NOT apply to other users.

The analog inputs on the UMC-1 go to an active component. This means that, unlike on old-time preamps and receivers, where the analog inputs go first to a passive attenuator (a pot), the analog inputs on the UMC-1 CAN be overloaded by too high an input signal. In that case, the solution is to reduce the level of the input signal. (If this happens at low signal levels, it might indicate a hardware problem.) This ONLY happens with analog inputs.

Digital inputs are different, and cannot overload in this manner. If a digital input has audio signal, and no dropouts, then the hardware cannot be overloading. In that case, the problem is most like something related to firmware, and will probably be cured by a Load Defaults or even a firmware update or reload.

Any time you see a situation where powering down the unit makes a problem go away, then the problem is most likely firmware related (since the firmware is reloaded into operational memory when you turn the unit back on). In those cases, if it doesn't recur, then no action is necessary. if the same problem does recur, then a Load Defaults, or even a reload of the firmware may well eliminate it permanently. Of course, if it remains after that, then a call to support is probably in order.

It is important NOT to confuse problems that occur only with analog inputs, or
only with digital inputs, or with both. The causes and solutions are almost always different for the two.

Jun 8, 2012 19:48:42 GMT -5 rob80b said:

The distortion has again raised it's ugly head and like maus said it's mostly with PCM.
My setup it fairly straight forward using just the Sony BDP and the Apple TV to watch movies, I just tried adjusting the sub's output level,(EQ is flat as I have the the LFE out going to my Velodyne SMS-1 and then to the sub.(the rest of my equipment is listed below) when the distortion set in.
Turned the UMC-1 off from the back for a bit but the distortion was still there, turned it off and unplugged it again and now it seems ok but it still a bit unnerving for a seasoned audiophile just getting his feet wet in HT.
I did a refresh of the .19 FW earlier on in the week and things worked great but slowly the have bugs started to creep back in.
Maybe Keith can chime in here as I know the topic has been brought up over and over again from some users, just curious if some of the earlier units may have had a buggy board that may have been the culprit as the problem appears not to be wide spread.
Haven't really tried the EMO-Q yet as the mic with the unit was not working and Emotiva are sending me up a new one.
So do all units have this trait and is there a possible definitive solution as obviously not all users appear to have this problem.
Anyway I really would like to hear from those who may have had a similar situation which got resolved.

Thanks

Robert

Thanks Keith,

Definitely a point, it occurred to me last night the the Bryston BCD-1 was indeed problematic when used with some pre-amps because its higher than normal output, I've always had an all Bryston system for the last 25 years so never a problem, lowering the input level will mostly likely fix the overload.

Robert

[rob80b]

Ok, dropping the input level to -10 for the Bryston BCD-1 improved things significantly, no distortion.
Not too sure how much attenuation there is at -10 but it appears to work.

Robert