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Post by petes on Jun 11, 2012 12:13:32 GMT -5
Ok, dropping the input level to -10 for the Bryston BCD-1 improved things significantly, no distortion.  Not too sure how much attenuation there is at -10 but it appears to work. Robert Very interesting. Are you dropping the output level at the source, or dropping the input level on the umc? If it's on the input, then this suggests the attenuation is being done before the overloaded "first" component. On the output side would be easier t understand, but not sure if it's possible. Keith, where does input attenuation happen in relation to the overloaded component, and did you mean to reduce the output level from the source, or to attenuate th input on the umc. Ps. Writing this at work, so can't remember the settings ..... Pete S |
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Post by rob80b on Jun 11, 2012 12:53:05 GMT -5
Ok, dropping the input level to -10 for the Bryston BCD-1 improved things significantly, no distortion. Not too sure how much attenuation there is at -10 but it appears to work. Robert Very interesting. Are you dropping the output level at the source, or dropping the input level on the umc? Pete S Hi Pete The input through the UMC-1, the Bryston BCD-1 has no provision for reducing the output gain. Robert |
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Post by petes on Jun 11, 2012 14:51:36 GMT -5
Very interesting. Are you dropping the output level at the source, or dropping the input level on the umc? Pete S Hi Pete The input through the UMC-1, the Bryston BCD-1 has no provision for reducing the output gain. Robert Thanks. So, that would suggest that the input gain adjustment comes before component which is being overloaded, which is interesting. Would be interesting to hear from Keith on the order of things here ,..... |
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Jun 11, 2012 14:54:08 GMT -5
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Post by rob80b on Jun 11, 2012 17:36:55 GMT -5
Hi Guys
Just one more update with the Bryston BCD-1, apparently the output can be as high as 4.6V with the balanced outputs, currently I’m running the BCD-1 (with balanced inputs) and my phono through the tape outs of my Bryston BP25P to the UMC-1's analogue input so even lowering the input to -10 was not enough if the 4.7 V are passed directly onto the UMC-1 as I could still notice a bit of stress in Feist’s voice.
I just hooked up the unbalanced connections direct from the BCD-1 but kept the input level lowered just in case, excellent!, I can now turn things up to were I like it. ;D
Robert
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Post by rob80b on Jun 13, 2012 15:22:55 GMT -5
It is important NOT to confuse problems that occur only with analog inputs, or only with digital inputs, or with both. The causes and solutions are almost always different for the two. Just a follow up to the distortion, as Keith mentioned mine was probably two fold and confused the issue, the analogue distortion was solved by decreasing the level input for the CD player, the distortion I experienced through HDMI with the BDP and ATV2 was solved by doing a Restore Defaults, then a re-install of 7.4.19 following the "Alternative Method for UMC Firmware Updating" and then another Restore Defaults before using the UMC-1, so far the sound output has been excellent in 5.1 or stereo regardless of source and the unit has been very stable, mind you it’s only been three days, but I’ve not been able to reproduce any of the distortion issues or previous glitches regardless of which modes or buttons I pushed. Maybe Keith can chime in here but I’m almost under the impression that with some units it may be necessary to do a few repeat installs of 7.4.19 to get a complete bug free operation, (exorcism of FWs past?) Anyway Happy Camper here !! ;D |
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Pauly
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Post by Pauly on Jun 13, 2012 15:29:04 GMT -5
That's good to hear, Robert. In previous FW updates, it only took me one time to get it loaded and have everything work. With .19, I had to load it four times until I got "bug free" operation. A little weird, but it sure was worth it in the end, since .19 was a huge step up in reliability and SQ for me.
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Post by rob80b on Jun 13, 2012 17:01:51 GMT -5
That's good to hear, Robert. In previous FW updates, it only took me one time to get it loaded and have everything work. With .19, I had to load it four times until I got "bug free" operation. A little weird, but it sure was worth it in the end, since .19 was a huge step up in reliability and SQ for me. Hi Pauly I'm relatively new to the UMC-1, but from what I've been reading was that the last firmware was basically a re-write or total overhaul, so it might be that it takes a few installs to completely over-write bits or fragments of the previous software code. It's not unusual, and how fast we forget, with older Windows OS it was necessary to completely purge an older driver or software to get things running smoothly, with Macs it quite often came down to re-formatting the drive but with consumer firmware upgrades/installs that's not possible, especially in the field. The thing to remember is all this new equipment is software driven and quite complex under the covers and for some audio manufactures just getting their feet wet in the digital domain it all takes time, years in fact to get all the wrinkles out. Robert |
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Maus
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Post by Maus on Jun 14, 2012 13:55:25 GMT -5
I am not that lucky. I have again reinstalled the firmware (with loading the defaults of course) and now it's actually worse over HDMI. I've listened the same CD again, and where previously there was distortion at certain frequencies (meaning instruments or parts in the music), now it's global. And as previously it was more prominent in left channel than in right, now it's more to the right. And I have decreased the output from Oppo quite significantly but it did not help. There's heavy distortion even when listening at very low volume levels, as if speakers were busted. Of course they're not. I have again connected the front three channels directly to UPA-5 from Oppo analog output and there's no distortion at all.
So this makes UMC-1 pretty much useless, I can listen to some of the movies through it, but for CD's, SACD's and FLAC files it's a no go. I believe that something is very wrong with it, not just a firmware issue. Unfortunately, shipping it back to Emotiva is not an option since the shipping costs would be almost as much as UMC-1 costs now. So it will be an expensive piece of recycling hardware. At least I'll be able to use the 40% discount on XMC-1, even though in summary it will still cost me more (if I add to it the 699$ for the UMC-1).
But this time I will wait to see the response from you guys in the States to the XMC-1. If the response will be positive (and I believe it will be, given that Emotiva learned from mistakes with UMC-1), I will for sure buy it. And by then there should be an European outlet for Emotiva in Germany, so that should make it a lot easier for us Europeans.
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Post by geertm on Jun 14, 2012 14:32:52 GMT -5
@maus
Have you checked if Dolby Volume is not enabled by accident?
Do you have any other HDMI audio sources? Does the distortion also happen with those sources?
Does the distortion also happen if you connect the Oppo to the analog inputs of the UMC-1?
As a happy Dutch UMC-1 owner I have to say that the unit has never sounded as good as with the latest firmware. And I have no problems at all. Sounds like perhaps you really have a faulty unit.
Did you contact Emotiva about the problem? Outside the US the often can send you just a new board that you can install yourself.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2012 15:04:32 GMT -5
Maus, the Oppo's volume control only works on the Oppo's analog outputs. Try connecting your Oppo this way to your UMC-1 and see how it sounds...
-RW-
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Post by rob80b on Jun 14, 2012 16:56:06 GMT -5
I am not that lucky. I have again reinstalled the firmware (with loading the defaults of course) and now it's actually worse over HDMI. I've listened the same CD again, and where previously there was distortion at certain frequencies (meaning instruments or parts in the music), now it's global. And as previously it was more prominent in left channel than in right, now it's more to the right. And I have decreased the output from Oppo quite significantly but it did not help. There's heavy distortion even when listening at very low volume levels, as if speakers were busted. Of course they're not. I have again connected the front three channels directly to UPA-5 from Oppo analog output and there's no distortion at all. So this makes UMC-1 pretty much useless, I can listen to some of the movies through it, but for CD's, SACD's and FLAC files it's a no go. I believe that something is very wrong with it, not just a firmware issue. Unfortunately, shipping it back to Emotiva is not an option since the shipping costs would be almost as much as UMC-1 costs now. So it will be an expensive piece of recycling hardware. At least I'll be able to use the 40% discount on XMC-1, even though in summary it will still cost me more (if I add to it the 699$ for the UMC-1). But this time I will wait to see the response from you guys in the States to the XMC-1. If the response will be positive (and I believe it will be, given that Emotiva learned from mistakes with UMC-1), I will for sure buy it. And by then there should be an European outlet for Emotiva in Germany, so that should make it a lot easier for us Europeans. Hi Maus My UMC-1 is distortion free right now and sounds very good, just a few things. Did you do a default re-set after the install?, recommended. How many re-installs of 7.4.19 have you done and were they with the same file downloads, if so, it's possible the files them selves got corrupted, it does happen some time while be downloaded or un-compressed. I would trash your original files even the installer and download new files from the Emotiva site and use the recommended WinRAR expander from: download.cnet.com/WinRAR-32-bit/3000-2250_4-10007677.html and give it one more try. Robert |
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Maus
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Post by Maus on Jun 14, 2012 16:58:42 GMT -5
Sorry, I wrote it wrong, I lowered the input level on UMC-1 for this input quite significantly, but it did not help. Even with this and at very low volume level there was lot of distortion in the sound.
I will try and connect it from the analog output of the Oppo, but I must get the additional interconnects for this. I would connect Oppo directly with UPA-5 for all channels (as I have for a while), but the sound is better through UMC-1 (when there is no distortion). I believe that the analog stage in the UMC-1 is better than the one in Oppo BDP-93.
Last year, when I've had it with all the problems with UMC-1, I bought a Pioneer VSX-2012 AV receiver (the first Pioneer with analog pre-outs) and used it just as a processor. Needless to say, in digital domain there were no problems whatsoever, everything worked. Not a hint of distortion, dropouts or anything else. But the sound was not so luscious and full as it is when UPA-5 is paired with UMC-1.
So when this latest firmware was released and I've read that it is complete rewrite of the code, I gave it a second chance. And for a while it was better, many of the problems were resolved. But then this distortion came back and become more and more severe. So now I have the first three channels connected directly from Oppo to UPA-5 and rear channels and subwoofer from UMC-1. Mainly for bass management, because UMC-1 has better bass management than Oppo (except for Multichannel PCM, where it also lacks bass).
I will send a mail to Emotiva, although unlike most of you I don't have a good experience with their customer service. Before I bought UMC-1 I sent them an e-mail with a question how UMC-1 handles Multichannel PCM sources, because this was most important for me because of the SACD's. I had to send the e-mail three times to customer service and to Sarah before I got an answer. Then last year before I bought the Pioneer I sent them an email detailing all the trouble I've had with UMC-1. I got no answer at all. Only later, when I was reconnecting UPA-5 with the Pioneer and one of the RCA jacks on the UPA-5 has snapped, I got an answer to that from Mr. Matt Wall and they have sent me the replacement jack immediately (actually two of them). I'll see how it will go now.
Just incidentally, Oppo is another story. I have sent them an e-mail about problems with BDP-83 (which I've had before BDP-93) on two occasions. First one of the discs in the Fringe first season box set did not work, and second time about the breaking up of the sound in the rear channels for Multichannel PCM (when listening to SACD's), for which the culprit was of course UMC-1. Even though it was both times just slightly over their working hours (a little after 2 A.M. where I live), both times I got an answer in LESS THAN 2 MINUTES! I mean it takes this time to type an answer, actually. Now that is some customer service!
And, after all, if UMC-1 would be OK, then XMC-1 would be like it is outlined on the XMC-1 Specs thread, started by Lonnie on November 9th, 2009. Obviously they have planned for XMC-1 to be upgraded version of UMC-1, but they have luckily realized this would not work and designed XMC-1 anew from scratch. This is why we are waiting for it for so long already. It will be good, I'm sure of it!
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Post by rob80b on Jun 14, 2012 17:21:28 GMT -5
Hi Maus
Still I would try as I indicated above with a clean download and install, with complex programing all it takes is a bit of corrupted or missing code to really mess things up for no apparent reason.
Robert
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Post by rob80b on Jun 14, 2012 17:28:33 GMT -5
So when this latest firmware was released and I've read that it is complete rewrite of the code, I gave it a second chance. Unlike using a computer and reformatting the drive it may take a few re-installs to over-write "all" the old code (which will at some point conflict with the new code), I'm new to the UMC-1 but I've experienced similar situations over the years with software based systems. Robert |
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Post by jlange on Jun 15, 2012 18:54:17 GMT -5
I just ran into this problem with distortion for the first time about a week ago. However, I haven't changed anything and have been running the same firmware for over a year.
I initially suspected that something inside the unit had failed and I would require warranty service, but after reading this thread I'll try some software adjustments first. I'll report back after the weekend.
Jim Lange
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 15, 2012 21:02:26 GMT -5
I am absolutely incredulous that folks have to re-load firmware multiple to get it to "take". That is BS, plain and simple. Emo need to address this problem by writing their software properly.
How "junk data" accumulates in the buffer is a mystery to me. If Emo knew this was an issue, amd *clearly* they did, why did they not write a routine that clears the buffers prior to applying the new microcode? This is, quite simply, sloppy programming and needs to be addressed with a NEW version of the firmware. Emo are quite lucky that their fan-boys customers are so tolerant of this inanity.
When I got my 1st UMC-1, it was a dog. No, make that a dog with fleas. And I did not accept that from them. To their credit, they shipped me a new unit on their nickel and then had a call-tag issued for the bogus unit. *That* is great customer service, and is the main reason I hung in there with them. In return, I have recommended the UMC-1 numerous times on other fora. Good customer service is a big deal with me and gets rewarded. Bad customer service is harshly punished.
I did have some minor problems with the replacement unit, but it was livable. However, once I updated the firmware to 7.04.00.19, I have experienced a marked improvement in the sound-quality and the operational quality. Good on ya, Emo!
Nonetheless, Emo need to come out with a final version of the firmware that clears up the remaining issues. And this new version *must* clear the buffers prior to committing itself. Anything less is not acceptable...
-RW-
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Post by rob80b on Jun 16, 2012 15:17:58 GMT -5
Just reading through some of the documentation for the Cirrus chips, unless the programmer has a strong conceptual grasp of the intended operational use I could see how the end user could indeed cause the DSP to trip up. The procedure for the FW install from what I can understand from the Cirrus documentation cannot be changed all that much so Emotiva obviously underestimated not so much the difficulty for the intended end user, but the ability to get a clean install 100% of the time. Today’s consumer just expect things to work first time around, this clearly was not the case with regards to the UMC-1 or more specifically with the Cirrus chip and I can see why Emotiva has moved on to the Texas Instrument DSP for the XMC-1. Having said that, my last 2 weeks with the UMC-1 has proved interesting and I was starting to feel others frustration and possible buyers remorse, but in the end with a little more perseverance I did manage to get a clean install of 7.4.19, the UMC-1 is now working 100% as intended, no distortion (my biggest concern), no switching or HDMI problems, 5.1 works great, I’ve been unable to trip up the unit regardless of what combination of buttons I push, so for the time being all is well. The only thing I’ve yet try is EMO-Q as I’m waiting on a Dynaudio center channel (currently using some Monitor Audios). With direct regards to distortion issues one of the Cirrus PDFs do point out the possibility with PCM sources as noted below. www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheets2/19/1937090_1.pdf"11.4.1 Input Configuration Considerations1) 24-bit PCM input requires at least 24 SCLKs
per sub-frame. The DSP always uses 24-bit
resolution for PCM input. Systems having less
than 24-bit resolution will not have a problem
as the extra bits taken by the DSP will be under
the noise floor of the input signal for left
justified and I2S formats. For compressed
input, data is always taken in 16 bit word
lengths.
2) If the clocks to the audio ports are known to be
corrupted, such as when a S/PDIF receiver goes
out of lock, the DSP should undergo an
application restart (if applicable), soft reset, or
hard reset. All three actions will result in the
input FIFO being reset. Failure to do so may
result in corrupted data being latched into the
input FIFO and may result in corrupted data
being heard on the outputs.
Corruption is only an issue when PCM data is
being delivered. When compressed data is
being delivered, there are sync words
embedded in the data stream to which the DSP
can lock. Certain application codes that are
capable of processing PCM may now have a
special feature called “PCM Robustness”
which prevents the corruption described above,
but you should still use a FIFO reset to ensure
good data."
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Maus
Minor Hero
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Post by Maus on Jun 17, 2012 12:49:26 GMT -5
It seems it is a software issue after all. I have again re-flash the software (this was my sixth or seventh time, I believe - after load defaults, of course, before and after), and have tried the CD that previously distorted heavily and for now it was distortion free. Haven't changed anything yet, except distances to speakers and crossover points. It will be interesting to see if the distortion issue will creep back in again.
I will also try to use the EM-Q again, to see if that will spoil everything again.
@row It was about time someone said it. It really is BS for a component to be re-flashed gazillion times for the software to finally "get in". I've been in the audio world for more than thirty years, and the digital world is also not strange to me, so I know this is what should not happen. I was having Onkyo receiver before, and for a while I've used Pioneer receiver instead of UMC-1, and with both of them everything worked. The only issue there was that with certain mkv files with DTS sound there were occasional drop-outs in sound. Since both use the same Texas Instruments platform that XMC-1 will use, it will be interesting to see if XMC-1 will have the same problem with these files. But they worked otherwise, and there were no software reinstalls necessary. The only thing that is better with UMC-1 is sound quality, here Emotiva clearly has the edge. And after all, they have sort of acknowledged that UMC-1 was a dead end, when in 2009 they had already planned to release XMC-1 which would be an upgraded version of UMC-1, but have then scrapped that and start from scratch. This gives us hope that XMC-1 will be trouble (and distortion) free.
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Post by rob80b on Jun 18, 2012 15:59:39 GMT -5
It seems it is a software issue after all. I have again re-flash the software (this was my sixth or seventh time, I believe - after load defaults, of course, before and after), and have tried the CD that previously distorted heavily and for now it was distortion free. Haven't changed anything yet, except distances to speakers and crossover points. It will be interesting to see if the distortion issue will creep back in again. I will also try to use the EM-Q again, to see if that will spoil everything again. Hi Maus That's good news (I guess sort of). I just got around to trying out the EMO-Q (as I was waiting on my center channel which just arrived this morning) but during the calibration I hit the return button instead of next and sort of messed things up, tried again without a re-set default as required by Keith and I believe it doubled the out-put to the surrounds causing distortion, went back to no EQ and everything is normal, I may try again later but it means re-setting the defaults one more time. If you are distortion free you may as well leave well enough alone. Robert |
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