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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 18, 2022 13:06:17 GMT -5
… All this from 25 years of Maggie ownership, study, and experimentation. Audio, I've owned Maggies since at least mid to early 80s … Got ya both beat, bought my first pair of MG IIs in 1975, had two pair for a while, then combined them as bass panels in a tri-amped system using a Tympani midrange tweeter combo (3a?). After that had bi-amped 1Ds, then played with electrostats for a while before getting the 20.1Rs. A long journey as well ✌️ |
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Post by DavidR on Jul 18, 2022 13:47:49 GMT -5
As I mentioned you can still find a Carver C-9 on eBay (for around $125) ... I saw two working ones there last week. (You could probably buy one and sell it again for most of what you paid for it if you didn't like it.) Here's a link to the Owner's Manual (note the VERY specific speaker location advice)... carvermanuals.com/manuals/Pre-Amplifiers/C-9%20Owners.pdfHere's a link to the SERVICE manual... which includes a schematic, a block diagram, a parts list, a foil layout, and all the repair data... (https://thecarversite.com/manuals/mandir/Carver%20C-9%20service%20manual.pdf ) Couple things than I'll drop it. ............................................................................................................................................................................................................... The Polk system is pretty elegant and simple, but I think the Carver SH has more potential, since if you started TODAY with a clean sheet of paper, you could use DSP techniques. I'd like to find an old sonic hologram box just long enough for a session of play time.....I don't think it would be easy to DIY this circuit.......and make certain improvements. People sell gear on thecarversite.com Most of the gear has been modified. There are some very capable technicians there.
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 18, 2022 14:13:30 GMT -5
Unfortunately, the 4136 op-amps used in the C-9 are basically "quad 741's", and so are pretty bad by today's standards... which is why the unit is somewhat noisy. Unfortunately there don't seem to be good pin-for-pin replacements - so you would need to use adapters to change them. And there are a LOT of parts in that thing... It is interesting that, as far as I can tell, nobody has ever made an exact copy of the functionality in DSP code... But, to be fair, while it was a relatively well-known gimmick, I don't think the C-9 itself was all that popular. And, while it was a "feature" in several Carver preamps and receivers, one can never know how many people used "sonic holography", or liked it. I personally thought it sounded interesting... but eventually the novelty wore off. (And it was really fussy about where you sat to get the proper effect.) Likewise, binaural is cool, and can be downright startling when done properly... But it just hasn't caught on. As I mentioned you can still find a Carver C-9 on eBay (for around $125) ... I saw two working ones there last week. (You could probably buy one and sell it again for most of what you paid for it if you didn't like it.) Here's a link to the Owner's Manual (note the VERY specific speaker location advice)... carvermanuals.com/manuals/Pre-Amplifiers/C-9%20Owners.pdfHere's a link to the SERVICE manual... which includes a schematic, a block diagram, a parts list, a foil layout, and all the repair data... (https://thecarversite.com/manuals/mandir/Carver%20C-9%20service%20manual.pdf ) People sell gear on thecarversite.com Most of the gear has been modified. There are some very capable technicians there. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 18, 2022 14:16:55 GMT -5
AH! Thanks Keith.....I hadn't thought to look for the owners manual. Should be some good general info contained.
I also found an online wiring / schematic for the Polk SDA system. That would be something you COULD maybe do at home just for test purposes.....
I tried to borrow a C9 (didn't remember the 'name' of the part) many years ago, but never pressed it with the local stocking Carver dealer. I owned
'The Cube' for a couple decades and enjoyed the combination of good form factor (compact) with enough power for my low-sensitivity panels.....M400t.......
I think it's a dead issue, but I wonder what a Clean Sheet design for a Hologram might work out to? The science of hearing / perception has made some progress
in the last couple decades, so that might help.
Looking forward to the EMO Sonic Corrections Generator
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KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,261
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Post by KeithL on Jul 18, 2022 14:19:43 GMT -5
And now... for some real fun... and what you would need to write code for it... here's the actual PATENT for Carver's "sonic holography". patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/5e/92/5f/f7a0588ed10dcf/US4218585.pdfUnfortunately, the 4136 op-amps used in the C-9 are basically "quad 741's", and so are pretty bad by today's standards... which is why the unit is somewhat noisy. Unfortunately there don't seem to be good pin-for-pin replacements - so you would need to use adapters to change them. And there are a LOT of parts in that thing... It is interesting that, as far as I can tell, nobody has ever made an exact copy of the functionality in DSP code... But, to be fair, while it was a relatively well-known gimmick, I don't think the C-9 itself was all that popular. And, while it was a "feature" in several Carver preamps and receivers, one can never know how many people used "sonic holography", or liked it. I personally thought it sounded interesting... but eventually the novelty wore off. (And it was really fussy about where you sat to get the proper effect.) Likewise, binaural is cool, and can be downright startling when done properly... But it just hasn't caught on. People sell gear on thecarversite.com Most of the gear has been modified. There are some very capable technicians there. |
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Post by DavidR on Jul 18, 2022 18:16:41 GMT -5
Usually don't see C9s on that site. Mostly C-1, C-11 and and the C-4000.
IIRC the op amps are replaced with Brown Dog op amps. My memory isn't what it used to be. Some data is fragmented.
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Post by leonski on Jul 29, 2022 14:34:42 GMT -5
I just looked at the patent. From 1979, call it 43 years ago.
First? Read the abstract. this makes sense and phrases the SH in terms you can understand.
If you look NEXT at Figure #2, you'll see what is identified as 'prior art'.....how it WAS done. This appears to be the POLK SDA system.
Carver added a LOT of embellishments and functionality. Variable time delay, is not the least. I suspect that modern devices / opamps and such may
run with less noise. And more precision / repeatability.
But If I were to experiment? I'd get some cheap speakers and experiment wiht the 'prior art' diagram first. It should be fairly easy to hear if you get a result.
I' have a pair of Radio Shack Minimus 7 in the die-cast aluminum case. These were a 'best buy' for a LONG time and part of many serious Dorm Systems.
I'll need another pair of drivers.....for the 'outer' speakers. Adjust time delay by distance........
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Post by alton4591 on Aug 5, 2022 14:21:29 GMT -5
I believe Separates are better.
DACs and Phono Preamps.
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Post by hondaman01 on Aug 9, 2022 21:58:20 GMT -5
Edgar Villchur of AR was the inventor of the acoustic suspension speaker. Bob Carver's Sonic Holography (which used a little out of phase left signal in the right speaker and vice versa in the left channel to cancel left information going to the right ear and vice versa) actually worked startling well, but it required you to set at the equilateral triangle spot with vice-like head stability. All of the best audio engineers worked for AR at one time or another. Most were from MIT. Many went on to form their own speaker/audio companies. Villchur quickly built the company to become the 2nd largest speaker company worldwide. His AR3, and with the expertise of Roy Allison, the 3a became #2 on the list of the top 12 speakers of all time. They are highly sought after today (me included). The sale to Teledyne in 1967 only brought more innovation and some fantastic speakers. Sadly, their marketing sucked and they were late to the college craze party with speaker companies from past employees beating them to the finish line. |
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 10, 2022 9:35:47 GMT -5
Late to this thread but IMO these days all that is needed is a DAC with one or two analog inputs (TT / R2R, etc.). Currently available from Bryston, Matrix Audio, Classe, Auralic and several others. Save a box and less $$$.
Russ
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Post by audiosyndrome on Aug 12, 2022 17:42:34 GMT -5
A little birdie in Tennessee told me today that an all Analog XSP-2 should be available in a few months. A complete redo of the XSP-1. 👍
Russ
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Post by DavidR on Aug 14, 2022 8:57:43 GMT -5
A little birdie in Tennessee told me today that an all Analog XSP-2 should be available in a few months. A complete redo of the XSP-1. 👍 Russ YIPPIE !!!!
Can that birdie sneak a picture of the XSP-2 onto this thread? - front and back sides of course -
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