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Post by garbulky on Sept 5, 2012 19:42:52 GMT -5
You have heard the masses Lonnie. What do you say?  You know that thing would sell. |
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harri009
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Post by harri009 on Sept 5, 2012 20:35:02 GMT -5
The answer is heat. The more heat you can pull out of an amplifier the more Class A power you can squeeze out of a transistor. It doesn't matter what you're putting through it: if it uses watts it creates heat. Great. So what would cause the new amp to switch from Class A? As Lonnie said on page 5 "The amplifier will switch from Class A to Class A/B under a few set conditions. First is when the heat sink temperature rises above a set point the system will start to reduce the class A drive gradually and continue to reduce the class A (as the heat sink temperature rises) until it either reaches a point of stasis or the temperature on the heat sink rises to a second set point in which case the amp will just run into class A/B mode until it cools down. The second is when the input signal is greater than the 30 watts of Class A, then it will just move into class A/B for the higher power output. The last scenario is if you want it to just run in Class A/B mode. There is a switch on the back panel that in one position is Auto Class A-A/B and the other position is Class A/B only. The sample that was on display did not have this switch as it was decided to add it later." |
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Post by MukAudio on Sept 5, 2012 20:41:24 GMT -5
I may be the only one interested, and this may not be a cost effective thing to do...But, how about making a class A only amp? I think the biggest "buzz" for the XPA-1l has been built around those 30 class A watts. Would it be easier/cheaper to just build a 50-100W all class A differential amp, that doesn't switch to class A/B at any point? I only ask because if we weren't worried about having really powerful amps, I would think this would allow us to have a smaller, lower cost, class A source of power. I'm interested in further discussion about Class A only amps as well.  Going to need a new rack and don't know how much power I need for speakers I haven't bought yet, but we'll worry about those details later! Mark |
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Post by Dark Ranger on Sept 5, 2012 20:41:33 GMT -5
One of the reasons I like the XPA-1L so much is due to the small form factor. If this new amp had all the bells and whistles we've discussed so far, but was available only in the standard 4RU, I would not get it. I prefer the 2RU amps. This is one reason I was completely blown away with the news. I had not expected this much performance in a small package. Then there are folks who like BIG amps and all the engineering capabilities that go with it. The larger chassis can accommodate more components, more power, and (usually) better cooling options. I think having "low-profile" and "big boy" versions would be the perfect mix.  Here's a new question I have about the XPA-1L: does anyone know the gain specification for this new amp? I don't recall seeing this in the Emofest reports. I would guess 29 dB since the new amps released this year are all 29 dB (from the mini-X to the XPR-5). |
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Post by trouble on Sept 5, 2012 20:57:18 GMT -5
Great. So what would cause the new amp to switch from Class A? As Lonnie said on page 5 "The amplifier will switch from Class A to Class A/B under a few set conditions. First is when the heat sink temperature rises above a set point the system will start to reduce the class A drive gradually and continue to reduce the class A (as the heat sink temperature rises) until it either reaches a point of stasis or the temperature on the heat sink rises to a second set point in which case the amp will just run into class A/B mode until it cools down. The second is when the input signal is greater than the 30 watts of Class A, then it will just move into class A/B for the higher power output. The last scenario is if you want it to just run in Class A/B mode. There is a switch on the back panel that in one position is Auto Class A-A/B and the other position is Class A/B only. The sample that was on display did not have this switch as it was decided to add it later." Thanks, I'm pretty sure I read that part. I'll amend my wording: what factors, specifically, cause the temperature to rise? Also, what does "input signal" mean? As I asked in my original post, is that the difference between Slayer and Lawrence Welk?? I promise I'm not trying to be thick; I'd really like to have a better understanding of "Class A". |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 5, 2012 21:11:38 GMT -5
Ok it's most of the factors you mentioned plus some more. Usually listening is done at a couple of watts but there are dynamics in well recorded songs that can suddenly draw a huge requirement. Somebody mentioned a loud piano note could draw 700 watts. I don't know how accurate that is but it stands that dynamics like a drum or a loud sound can draw an exponentially greater amount of power.
Now your question is different. Rock, pop, and heavy metal tends to have very poor dynamic range. So everything sounds loud. While well recorded music ike jazz and classical has very good dynamic range. So on a capable system things can get very very loud in a fraction of a second. So I feel that one actually stresses an amp more to its limits on well recorded items during those quick loud transients.
BUT on average heavy metal and heavy rock and regular pop music will draw a consistently moderately large amount of power however the extreme ranges of the amp may not get tested because of the poor dynamic range.
So as you can see it's not an easy question to answer.
So, what's important to realize is that most listening is done at very low power , so having 60 watts class A in stereo is actually quite good compared to most other emo amps. I imagine, (if there is an audible difference in class a), the "poorer" sound would be on the loud dynamics. Does that help?
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harri009
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Post by harri009 on Sept 5, 2012 21:13:39 GMT -5
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Post by wrinklemash on Sept 6, 2012 1:06:03 GMT -5
I do like the idea of a "signature" or limited edition of the XPA-1. Then again, a new updated version of the XPA-1 doesn't sound that bad either. The XPA-1 is an exceptional amp as it is now. Then again, I would consider it mind-blowing when I purchase at a deeply discounted closeout price!!!!! ;D ;D ;D In all seriousness, the XPA-1L is very appealing to me because of the unit size. I wish it was less than $699 though. Ultimately, I am going to have to make a choice between the XSP-100's EDIT: XPA-100S and XPA-1L's. The cost differential will loom large.  |
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Post by Dark Ranger on Sept 6, 2012 1:35:49 GMT -5
In all seriousness, the XPA-1L is very appealing to me because of the unit size. Agree 100%. That along with other features really put this amp at the top of my short list. Ultimately, I am going to have to make a choice between the XSP-100's and XPA-1L's. The cost differential will loom large. I hear ya, I really do. $699 x2 blows my budget completely out of the water and is much more than I planned to spend for two-channel amplification. However, there are many good reasons why this amp will cost $699. I am also aware that if I bought that amp in a B&M store with some other brand on it, I'd be paying much more. I generally purchase something with the intent of keeping it for a long time. I'm not one of those who buys something and then sells it 3 months later for something new. I see this amp as an investment into high-quality audio capabilities for the future. It taps into a higher level of performance that I can build my system around. If I upgrade speakers in the future, my amps won't become the bottleneck for squeezing out that last bit of performance. I was dead-set on buying the XPA-200 because, and let's be honest, that's probably all I'll need for a while. However, since the XPA-1L won't be released until 2013, I've got a few months to save some cash and hopefully offset the bite into my wallet. I haven't fully decided yet, but every day I'm convinced a bit more that this is the right choice in the long run. |
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Post by trouble on Sept 6, 2012 6:50:23 GMT -5
Ok it's most of the factors you mentioned plus some more. Usually listening is done at a couple of watts but there are dynamics in well recorded songs that can suddenly draw a huge requirement. Somebody mentioned a loud piano note could draw 700 watts. I don't know how accurate that is but it stands that dynamics like a drum or a loud sound can draw an exponentially greater amount of power. Now your question is different. Rock, pop, and heavy metal tends to have very poor dynamic range. So everything sounds loud. While well recorded music ike jazz and classical has very good dynamic range. So on a capable system things can get very very loud in a fraction of a second. So I feel that one actually stresses an amp more to its limits on well recorded items during those quick loud transients. BUT on average heavy metal and heavy rock and regular pop music will draw a consistently moderately large amount of power however the extreme ranges of the amp may not get tested because of the poor dynamic range. So as you can see it's not an easy question to answer. So, what's important to realize is that most listening is done at very low power , so having 60 watts class A in stereo is actually quite good compared to most other emo amps. I imagine, (if there is an audible difference in class a), the "poorer" sound would be on the loud dynamics. Does that help? Very much!! Thank you for your time!! |
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Post by trouble on Sept 6, 2012 7:02:03 GMT -5
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Post by sharkman on Sept 6, 2012 9:50:14 GMT -5
One word of caution. It's hard for Emotiva to be at all accurate about when a model will be released. Many such releases have been late, like the XSP, or the XMC which moved from June to 'summer' to a 4th quarter of 2012 release. So you might be waiting longer than expected. For some, it is better to go by what is a current model, and for some waiting an extra 6 months is no big deal.
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Post by UT-Driven on Sept 6, 2012 13:03:21 GMT -5
I would like to see the XPA-2 do this also into 2ch. ..along with more affordable "green" amps using different topologies especially for multi channel applications. As the audiophile in me drools in a all class A 7ch setup, the realist in me would rather have an all class H/D etc amp doing HT duties. I would like to see more Class D/H amps available also. With all of the great implementations done with the Class A/B line, I can imagine that they would be able to make more great amps with efficiency in mind. One concern is that Class D (limited to IcePower?) seems to have rolled off highs in general when reading reviews. Without taking energy concerns into the equation, the XPA-1L looks like it will be an amazing amplifier! I would expect that the changes to increase the Class A wattage to the XPA-1 and offer the switching modes would make it even more desirable. Doug |
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Post by UT-Driven on Sept 6, 2012 13:08:16 GMT -5
Doesn't anyone care about global warming anymore? I want to have oceanfront property here in Utah, and shorter winters. Of course if that happens, many of you will all have substantial flood problems. ;D Doug |
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Post by zaphod2012 on Sept 10, 2012 20:13:13 GMT -5
Most posts seem to have gone nutso on the xpa-1-xl
I personally still have a much higher interest in the smaller, xpa-1-l. They will be easier to keep cool, they will allow me to fit 5-7 mono in my cabinet neatly which will not be possible with the xpa-1xl and will be much cheaper to upgrade all my channels with an amp that will still have plenty of power 99% of the time. I am sure that this pet project was deemed viable and the sound quality worth the pursuit or Lonnie would not have played with the idea so long.
I am sure that a market exists for the XL but i am sure that the L would sell in much greater numbers being a serious mono amp without all the compromises that the XL will have for me personally. So Lonnie I vote for both but if i had to choose i would vote the L, i would probably buy 2 XL's and have to buy new shelving but i would definately look at 7 L's in my main system and 2 for my second system, maybe 5 + 2 but i guess once i hear it i will want all the same :-)
Anybody else feel like this or are we pushing Lonnie in only I direction?
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Post by Dark Ranger on Sept 10, 2012 20:50:38 GMT -5
The way I read it, the XPA-1L is basically a done deal. He clarified several things for us earlier in this thread. Then, based on our positive feedback so far, Lonnie put out a feeler for a souped-up XPA-1. He says: Now I have a question for you guys. Do you think I should make a new version of the big XPA-1 and add the Auto Class A-A/B circuits? So to me, it sounds like there might be two new versions of the XPA-1 on the table: the L and the XL. Again, the XL thread appears to have positive feedback and interested buyers. I never got the impression from Lonnie that it would be an "either/or" product selection. With that said, I'm in agreement with you that the L model presents many attractive benefits. That's the one I'd choose. Nevertheless, it would be great if Emotiva offers both models in the future. If it is economically feasible to do so, it would give consumers a wider selection. As consumers, we like options. |
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Post by hawk14 on Sept 10, 2012 21:00:23 GMT -5
Hmmm, here is a thought, instead of selling my much beloved UPA-1's and upgrading to the XPA-1L, is there any chance in getting Lonnie to create an upgrade program for the UPA-1 to XPA-1L operation. I don't know how feasible it would be, but at least you wouldn't have to deal with the hassle of selling the old amps and wait for the new ones to go on sale. Upgrade program - That would be SWEET!! |
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Post by garbulky on Sept 10, 2012 22:06:22 GMT -5
Hawk14: That would be nice, but in reality the upa-1 and the xpa-1 are very different. The UPA-1 has more in common with the xpa-3,, and 5. The XPA-1 L is fully balanced unlike the UPA-1 and probably has more capacitance. There would be too much stuff to change to make it work at a profitable manner.
I was thinking that a trade in program would be great but I realized even that would probably be too much hassle for the company.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 10, 2012 22:23:43 GMT -5
Doesn't anyone care about global warming anymore? Yeah really, seems like before EmoFest there was a lot of clambering for class D :~) I also can't imagine you're going to be able to stack many (or any) of these as someone asked, if you don't let them breath you will just hasten their slide or switch back to A/B. But the mention of 'standby' was interesting, if you weren't going to use the amp but didn't want to turn it off you could put it in A/B to save power and heat - Emo could give a 'trigger' to allow external switching between modes without reaching around the back (handy with multiple amps). |
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Post by hawk14 on Sept 10, 2012 22:34:07 GMT -5
You're probably right, Garbulky. I was just looking at the fact that the amps have the same chassis size. Upgrade power supply, make fully balanced and bingo!! /But like you said, there's probably a lot more to it that would make it cost prohibitive. A trade-in program is a great idea, but that probably wont happen either. Nice to dream though! |
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Going to need a new rack and don't know how much power I need for speakers I haven't bought yet, but we'll worry about those details later!
