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Post by rclark on Sept 12, 2012 22:54:00 GMT -5
Those bag end subs playing flat to 8hz at reference? or what kind of scale are they pretending to work with? with a 500 watt amp at 92dB's? lol Ok then, that would have to be seen to be believed because it's pretty far fetched. Are there an T/S parameters? Could run a sim and see what they could be capable of. They DON'T play to 8hz flat. If there was a 10, or even a dual 10 that could, the whole audiophile world would be flipping out. It's marketing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2012 23:39:40 GMT -5
Well to be fair, my post was nicely worded sarcasm. If they were that good, like you said, everybod would have them. I've never been a fan of bag end to begin with. I was at a sub meet and one of the guys had a INFRASUB-18. The driver was 13 lbs I think? They took it out of the cab and compared it to the mal-x 18" driver I had brought that I was selling, it was as epic as you could imagine lol The only way it is possible for any of those subs to be flat to 8hz (from reading a few reviews, they don't) is if they completely nerfed the top end just for that reason for their marketing. (which seems to be the theory because the spl numbers are horrid.
BTW that 18" Infrasub did actually sound decent with music but for HT it was the laughing stock of the meet. One of the guys had one of those small JL subs with the 10" and IT blew that thing out of the water in every way, it was kinda funny. Though my comment is only on the 18 and not the other 2, I've never even heard of them. Bag End seems to have the same write up for all their speakers.
I would expect the X ref 15 to beat it in all regards.
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Post by matt34 on Sept 13, 2012 0:26:28 GMT -5
Put me down for two if they are indeed passive.
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Post by flamingeye on Sept 23, 2012 13:18:36 GMT -5
One advantage to a passive sub is if the amp goes down you can through in another amp quickly to keep it running till you get the original amp fixed , I’ve don this before with my old DIY passive
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Sept 23, 2012 17:44:46 GMT -5
One advantage to a passive sub is if the amp goes down you can through in another amp quickly to keep it running till you get the original amp fixed , I’ve don this before with my old DIY passive The majority of sub users prefer one less component in the rack. There is a reason that the vast majority of subs are self powered - One less exposed component, especially a power amp when you have young kids in the home. I agree that an amp failure makes for an easy switch out. But, I have always owned self powered subs and none of the amps shook to pieces. And I drive my subs very hard. I don't know that whatever internal volume is taken up by the amp makes a discernable difference to output. But, I will give credit for the easy amp change out. To me though, that is more theoretical than real life. So far, I still prefer that the X/REF-15 is self powered
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RadTech
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Post by RadTech on Sept 23, 2012 19:23:34 GMT -5
I never used active sub cabinets in the DJ world. It was big passive cabinets with separate bridged amps for each side for the very reason Jeff stated. I like the separate idea for the Xref 15. In fact I like the DIY like N8 and Eric have. Now that's some serious lowend!
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Post by dragonV on Sept 23, 2012 19:25:15 GMT -5
One advantage to a passive sub is if the amp goes down you can through in another amp quickly to keep it running till you get the original amp fixed , I’ve don this before with my old DIY passive The majority of sub users prefer one less component in the rack. There is a reason that the vast majority of subs are self powered - One less exposed component, especially a power amp when you have young kids in the home. I agree that an amp failure makes for an easy switch out. But, I have always owned self powered subs and none of the amps shook to pieces. And I drive my subs very hard. I don't know that whatever internal volume is taken up by the amp makes a discernable difference to output. But, I will give credit for the easy amp change out. To me though, that is more theoretical than real life. So far, I still prefer that the X/REF-15 is self powered Have to agree, would much prefer the amp is builtin, but sure others like the external idea. Maybe emotiva will surprise us with both!!! Either way just hope this baby turns up soon:)
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2012 19:48:46 GMT -5
I don't mind self powered amps in subs but as far as DIY goes, It's really a cost factor. Sure you can get plate amps that have 1K or more power but you could buy 3-6 pro amps with more power PER amp than what 1 plate amp will give you. It makes no sense when looking at anything over 300-500 watts. a pro amp will output more power for less money. Eric and I personally have amps that will do around 4000 watts per channel x 2 for about 1K after shipping. You can barley buy a plate amp with 1k of power for the amount. Emo's idea for a separate amp to sell is awesome but IMO, it would be quite an oversight if thats the only way they would sell the sub as I am not the norm. Other than a bunch of us nutty guys, not many people like Jammy said, want anything to do with a external amp.
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Post by flamingeye on Sept 24, 2012 19:48:50 GMT -5
One advantage to a passive sub is if the amp goes down you can through in another amp quickly to keep it running till you get the original amp fixed , I’ve don this before with my old DIY passive The majority of sub users prefer one less component in the rack. There is a reason that the vast majority of subs are self powered - One less exposed component, especially a power amp when you have young kids in the home. I agree that an amp failure makes for an easy switch out. But, I have always owned self powered subs and none of the amps shook to pieces. And I drive my subs very hard. I don't know that whatever internal volume is taken up by the amp makes a discernable difference to output. But, I will give credit for the easy amp change out. To me though, that is more theoretical than real life. So far, I still prefer that the X/REF-15 is self powered Eventually all things break down theoretical or not and in my experience it’s the amp that goes first usually over the driver, but not that the driver couldn’t go first just in my experience it’s the amp , but I agree I like having the amp with the sub
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Post by eggmansr71 on Sept 27, 2012 13:03:07 GMT -5
Just for reference Klipsch's THX Ultra2 subs are passive and have an external amp that will drive two of them.
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Sept 27, 2012 16:33:57 GMT -5
Sub amps failures due to vibrations is not a problem for the industry. I would speculate to say that symptomology might be more aligned with the DIY community. Maybe not. But it is theoretical because one would have to agree that not subjecting the amp to the pressures and vibrations inside the sub enclosure makes it seems safer. But the evidence is just not there to back it up. I just think that external sub amps is an audiophile fiction or demand because it gives them the opportunity to mate the sub with the amp(s) of their choice. It is not different from claiming that an analog signal from source to gain to speakers is better than an analog signal that has to go through one more ADC to DAC conversion. Never mind that both output signals from the pre/out are spec'd the same. Come to think of it, I think that it would be great if Emo makes the X/REF-15s available optionally passive. Then make standalone sub amps. That should satisfy everybody
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maddog07
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Post by maddog07 on Oct 12, 2012 22:42:09 GMT -5
I believe I read that the sub amp for the Xref-15 will have a multitude of adjustments to dial it in, perhaps even some type of dsp response correction, parametric filters, etc. Perhaps more than the current xref subs. There may be a "need" to provide easy access to a "control panel". And having that handy on the front of the separate amp sitting in your component rack might be necessary versus on the back of a sub cabinet where their might be limited/insufficient real estate issues. Might not be room on the front of the sub either with a 15" in there.. Emo may be bumping up against max. dimensions and weight for UPS too and need to keep the cabinet under a certain size and weight... lots of things to consider here. Don't get me wrong, I like the one-box powered sub solution - I own three at the moment. Lets not forget other desirables, and the wireless option on the Hsu ULS15 is very appealing - allows for optimum sub placement without an IC running across the middle of the floor. You can put the Hsu anywhere you can plug it in - now this is a useful feature. In the mancave I'm allowed to run "wires" to the best placement for the subs... in the H/T where other people are allowed.. the WAF don't allow such nonsense! Lets keep an open mind and see what the Emo team comes up with... I'm sure it will be great.... and I'm sure they have good reasons for designing a given product the way they do.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Oct 13, 2012 17:31:35 GMT -5
Sub amps failures due to vibrations is not a problem for the industry. I would speculate to say that symptomology might be more aligned with the DIY community. Maybe not. But it is theoretical because one would have to agree that not subjecting the amp to the pressures and vibrations inside the sub enclosure makes it seems safer. But the evidence is just not there to back it up. I just think that external sub amps is an audiophile fiction or demand because it gives them the opportunity to mate the sub with the amp(s) of their choice. It is not different from claiming that an analog signal from source to gain to speakers is better than an analog signal that has to go through one more ADC to DAC conversion. Never mind that both output signals from the pre/out are spec'd the same. Come to think of it, I think that it would be great if Emo makes the X/REF-15s available optionally passive. Then make standalone sub amps. That should satisfy everybody The power supply capacitors in one of my subs became noisy after just a few years, I don't know if it was caused by vibrations or just poor quality caps. I used better when I replaced them, but the repair was certainly made more difficult by the amps mounting within the sub and the 'anti-vibration' material on the components. Mine are not DIY (Nola Thunderbolt III).
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Post by wrinklemash on Nov 8, 2012 3:58:36 GMT -5
Just to interject some perspective about the low end capabilities of subwoofers. To my knowledge, this is about the only sub that purportedly plays to 1hz with about 3% distortion (yes I typed that right) - but then again, it costs $21,000-$25,000 installed. And, it is not a box - then again you may have to put it in one, if not another room. www.eminent-tech.com/main.htmlI didn't believe it when I first saw it, but according Steve Guttenburg of CNET, it really does work. news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-20014842-47.html
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xyzed
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Post by xyzed on Nov 23, 2012 8:39:15 GMT -5
Put me down for two if they are indeed passive. +1 - or is that +2 I'm a fan of separate amps for subs, well any speaker really. Have always hated powered speakers (in the PA world). Inbuilt amp dies - there went your entire sub/speaker until repaired/replaced. External amp dies - well a day later I can have a brand new one and probably a temporary laying around in the meantime. I can understand it's handy, but just not for me.
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Post by edoggrc51 on Nov 24, 2012 2:55:37 GMT -5
I don't mind self powered amps in subs but as far as DIY goes, It's really a cost factor. Sure you can get plate amps that have 1K or more power but you could buy 3-6 pro amps with more power PER amp than what 1 plate amp will give you. It makes no sense when looking at anything over 300-500 watts. a pro amp will output more power for less money. Eric and I personally have amps that will do around 4000 watts per channel x 2 for about 1K after shipping. You can barley buy a plate amp with 1k of power for the amount. +1 Well said my bass brotha!
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jamrock
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Post by jamrock on Nov 24, 2012 8:22:33 GMT -5
Well, I do hope that Emotiva makes some X/REF-15s self powered. I have been waiting a long time to give Emo my business by making do with the U-12s. I also believe that more audiophiles and the general A/V consumer prefer the convenience of self powered subs. My theater was built to hideaway electronics and leave only speakers exposed. All my receptacles are behind my wall built HT furniture. Speaker wires are run behind sheetrock and exit at precise locations designated for my speaker placements. It would be really disappointing for me to wait this long in vain. Look at the bottom of my signature. I have been waiting for them for more than 2 years.
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