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Post by davidas6350 on Feb 8, 2013 13:58:45 GMT -5
Theres only 2 ways you can get 7.1 from a 5.1 source with the 200 david[ leaving aside neo 6s single back surround] ; either dts duplicating the back surround channels or pl2x . To narrow this down ide just go into the playback submenu and change multi pcm to pl2x then flick back to all channel stereo and see if the back surrounds disappear or stay . It happens on the fly iirc All the pre pro's Ive ever sent 5.1 lpcm to have identified any extra dsp mode on top of the raw pcm ; maybe in a future firmware this will happen . I bitstream and hitting display the pl mode comes up at least albeit with a z instead so was a bit surprised this behaviour isnt emulated with multi pcm. Just to be clear, I'm OK with the current settings/setup on my UMC-200: * Bluray player (BDP-103) doing the decoding via HDMI (PCM goes to UMC) This eliminates the popping sound I hear when pressing Next Chapter on movies (compare to bitstream) * UMC-200 using default mode --> All stereo for Multi PCM input I do get 7.1 from 5.1 sources using All Stereo, you don't have to select PLIIx or DTS mode (most of the time, that's not possible anyway with PCM input). Plus, I calibrated my speaker's SPL using "All Stereo" mode. Doing that saved me from constantly changing the Trim levels (using PLIIx, DTS, etc., changes the SPL). Also, I don't have to keep changing the the DSP mode with different sources (I don't get some of the default modes for particular inputs) since the UMC-200 is receiving PCM it always uses the All Stereo mode for Multi-PCM (which is what I want with my current setup). Now... I might change these once we're able to save the playback mode, and the popping sounds disappear with the new firmware updates. The statements I made are in reponsed to someone who said, "with a multi-PCM input the default playback mode is 'All Stereo.' You cannot select PLIIx. Since most streaming movies are 5.1, that means no rear channels." I agree with not being able to select PLIIx, but "All Stereo" also generates rear channels (not just PLIIx or DTS). The way "All Stereo" generates the rear channels is what I'm not sure about, but it's ok since all 7.1 channels are active and sounds right. |
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Post by doc1963 on Feb 8, 2013 16:26:26 GMT -5
Yes & No. If your speakers are set for SMALL and you notice ENHANCED is ON, click SMALL twice. It will change to LARGE on the first click, and with the 2nd click, back to SMALL and ENHANCED will be OFF. At least that is my experience. A toggling issue that likely needs to fixed with firmware. Either way, it should be " OFF" by default. It should be a "user selectable option" only if the mains are set as "Large" and not an option at all if set as "Small". The UMC-1 had it right (when it worked)..... ;D |
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Post by avaddikt on Feb 8, 2013 17:59:28 GMT -5
I agree, I never said it was 'normal'.  And per the manual, it should only be selectable with LARGE speakers. |
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Post by cwt on Feb 8, 2013 22:16:24 GMT -5
"with a multi-PCM input the default playback mode is 'All Stereo.' You cannot select PLIIx. Since most streaming movies are 5.1, that means no rear channels." I agree with not being able to select PLIIx, but "All Stereo" also generates rear channels (not just PLIIx or DTS). The way "All Stereo" generates the rear channels is what I'm not sure about, but it's ok since all 7.1 channels are active and sounds right. It should have struck me david that this behaviour described by Keith earlier also applies to decoded pcm ; emotivalounge.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=preamps&action=post&thread=27686"e=472652&page=1It seems thats a possible pointer to it being pl2x your getting whether wanted or not . Maybe tell the 200 you dont have rear surrounds ; then select ''last used'' in the playback menu and then add the rear surrounds - if that sticks or is even possible ? Will be a lot easier when the new firmware comes one things for sure |
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Post by davidas6350 on Feb 8, 2013 22:52:18 GMT -5
Maybe tell the 200 you dont have rear surrounds ; then select ''last used'' in the playback menu and then add the rear surrounds - if that sticks or is even possible ? I'm sorry but, I honestly don't know what we're trying to do here?  As I mentioned before, I'm happy with the way my UMC-200 is currently configured. |
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Post by cwt on Feb 8, 2013 23:19:29 GMT -5
I'm sorry but, I honestly don't know what we're trying to do here? As I mentioned before, I'm happy with the way my UMC-200 is currently configured. I thought you also wanted to determine whether your back surrounds were derived from dts bitmapping or pl2x as well .No matter your happy with pl2x added ; thats all that matters .. |
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Post by davidas6350 on Feb 8, 2013 23:45:25 GMT -5
Ok, I think I know where you're getting at. But remember, my UMC is receiving PCM, so even if I turn off the rear channel (with "Last Used" on Multi PCM input) it will remained "All Stereo" in 7.1 going to 5.1 and back to 7.1 setup --- does that make sense? I don't know, I'm also confuse now  but yeah, I'm happy for now so I'll leave it at that ;D |
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Post by cwt on Feb 9, 2013 23:08:22 GMT -5
Ok, I think I know where you're getting at. But remember, my UMC is receiving PCM, so even if I turn off the rear channel (with "Last Used" on Multi PCM input) it will remained "All Stereo" in 7.1 going to 5.1 and back to 7.1 setup --- does that make sense? I don't know, I'm also confuse now but yeah, I'm happy for now so I'll leave it at that ;D It struck me that I was off on a tangent determining this whole thing from a bitstreaming codec perspective when you mentioned dts bitmapping ; thats for the decoder to determine and of course your correct with pcm going straight to the dacs doh  |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,276
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Post by KeithL on Feb 14, 2013 11:53:58 GMT -5
It's been a while since I've posted anything new here, and I've noticed that there's a lot of confusion about how to hook up things like the Oppo 105.... so....
The UMC-200 has an ANALOG RESISTOR LADDER NETWORK volume control.
This is important since it means that, in modes that don't require processing, your audio can remain entirely in the analog domain.
That's right, no conversions, no truncation, no rounding, no digital anything.
So, when you feed an ANALOG signal into the UMC-200, and you pick Direct Mode, that analog signal is passed directly to analog buffer stages, then on to the Volume control, which is also ANALOG, and to the output. It is NOT converted to digital along the way. This means, for people using an outboard DAC, or the analog output of a SACD player, the UMC-200 DOES NOT degrade the audio quality on the way through by passing it through any digital processing. All you are adding is the convenience of the nice digitally controlled ANALOG LADDER NETWORK volume control. This is clearly (and audibly) better than ANY digital volume control - even the "good" ones.
If you're using a stereo analog input, you can pick Direct Mode to get this direct analog pass-through, or you can select other modes (like Stereo Mode), which are converted to digital, so you can use all the cool processing the UMC-200 offers. If you're using the 7.1 channel direct analog input, then Direct Mode is the only option you will have.
When you feed a DIGITAL input to the UMC-200, obviously it has to go through the D/A converters (so you can have your analog audio output). If that digital audio happens to be in a surround sound mode, then it also has to be decoded, so it also goes through the decoders. At that point, if you've selected Direct Mode, it will go through bass management and straight to the volume control - and then to the outputs. If you've selected another mode, then the signal will also pass through the EmoQ and EQ processing as well.
[So, if you're connecting that Oppo 105, connect both the HDMI input and the Direct 7.1 Analog audio inputs. Then, when you want to listen to digital surround content, you can use EmoQ, and all the other cool decoding and EQ options in the UMC-200. When you want to listen to SACDs in "purist mode", select the direct input and play them with no processing - and nothing contributed by the UMC-200 except the convenience of that nice digitally controlled analog ladder network volume control. For stereo sources, you can choose to listen through the direct inputs, or you can use the digital inputs and get the full processing power of the UMC-200. If you want even more flexibility, connect the Stereo analog outputs on the 105 to a pair of Stereo Analog inputs on the UMC-200 as well. That gives you yet another option; you can listen to the stereo analog inputs in Direct Mode with no processing (but using the Sabre DACs in the Oppo), or you can use another mode, like Stereo, that gives you EmoQ and all the other cool processing features on the UMC-200 for things that sound better that way. ]
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Post by avaddikt on Feb 14, 2013 13:10:18 GMT -5
Thanks, Keith! That's a very valuable explanation. |
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Post by darude on Feb 14, 2013 15:43:24 GMT -5
Great work Keith! These explanations are just awesome to read!
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 14, 2013 17:06:32 GMT -5
You have an amazing ability Keith to explain the most complex electronics in such a way as to be totally usefull to even the most non technical reader.
I have a follow up question, having just secured a UMC-200 via the warehouse sale. I currently use a USP-1 for vinyl and other analogue stereo sources and I like the way the USP-1 integrates the subwoofer. Does the UMC-200 have the same analogue ability?
Cheers
Gary
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Post by doc1963 on Feb 14, 2013 18:25:15 GMT -5
I can answer that for you Gary. Bass management is handled in the digital domain on the UMC-200. You can integrate and use both the USP-1 and the UMC-200 by using the HT Bypass function of the USP-1. You can simply leave your analog sources connected to the USP-1 and enjoy them as you have been doing. When in HT Bypass mode, the USP-1 becomes "transparent" to the rest of the system and allows the signal from the UMC-200 to pass though it untouched. Using the combination in that manner, you'll get the best of both worlds... |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 14, 2013 18:25:21 GMT -5
Thanks Keith, great explanation!
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 14, 2013 18:40:42 GMT -5
I can answer that for you Gary. Bass management is handled in the digital domain on the UMC-200. You can integrate and use both the USP-1 and the UMC-200 by using the HT Bypass function of the USP-1. You can simply leave your analog sources connected to the USP-1 and enjoy them as you have been doing. When in HT Bypass mode, the USP-1 becomes "transparent" to the rest of the system and allows the signal from the UMC-200 to pass though it untouched. Using the combination in that manner, you'll get the best of both worlds... Thanks, that's what I do currently. Perhaps a more detailed explanation of what I would like to try. Due to space premium, I have already consolidated from an XPA-2 / XPA-3 combo to an XPA-5 and from a UMC-1 to a UMC-200, I was going to test not having the USP-1. Don't get me wrong I realy like my USP-1, but space is an issue. I have a Denon phono preamp, that I don't use with the USP-1, that I could use with the UMC-200. Based on Keith's tip the UMC-200 appears to have pretty good analogue performance, which I was going to test with a back to back of the USP-1. The missing element, maybe not, is the USP-1's ability to integrate the sub in analogue. Hence the question, can the UMC-200 do the same or similar? Cheers Gary |
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Post by doc1963 on Feb 14, 2013 21:03:42 GMT -5
I can answer that for you Gary. Bass management is handled in the digital domain on the UMC-200. You can integrate and use both the USP-1 and the UMC-200 by using the HT Bypass function of the USP-1. You can simply leave your analog sources connected to the USP-1 and enjoy them as you have been doing. When in HT Bypass mode, the USP-1 becomes "transparent" to the rest of the system and allows the signal from the UMC-200 to pass though it untouched. Using the combination in that manner, you'll get the best of both worlds... Thanks, that's what I do currently. Perhaps a more detailed explanation of what I would like to try. Due to space premium, I have already consolidated from an XPA-2 / XPA-3 combo to an XPA-5 and from a UMC-1 to a UMC-200, I was going to test not having the USP-1. Don't get me wrong I realy like my USP-1, but space is an issue. I have a Denon phono preamp, that I don't use with the USP-1, that I could use with the UMC-200. Based on Keith's tip the UMC-200 appears to have pretty good analogue performance, which I was going to test with a back to back of the USP-1. The missing element, maybe not, is the USP-1's ability to integrate the sub in analogue. Hence the question, can the UMC-200 do the same or similar?Cheers Gary The short answer is no. Bass management is performed in the "digital" domain, not analog. If you want to integrate your sub using an analog source and input, the signal will be converted to digital, bass management applied, then converted back to analog for output. It would be the same principles as what you would encounter with your UMC-1. There's nothing different between the two in that regard. One caveat... Just like the UMC-1, the 7.1 analog inputs of the UMC-200 are "direct (to the output stages) only". No bass management can be applied to that specific input at all. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 17, 2013 20:02:34 GMT -5
Thanks, that's what I do currently. Perhaps a more detailed explanation of what I would like to try. Due to space premium, I have already consolidated from an XPA-2 / XPA-3 combo to an XPA-5 and from a UMC-1 to a UMC-200, I was going to test not having the USP-1. Don't get me wrong I realy like my USP-1, but space is an issue. I have a Denon phono preamp, that I don't use with the USP-1, that I could use with the UMC-200. Based on Keith's tip the UMC-200 appears to have pretty good analogue performance, which I was going to test with a back to back of the USP-1. The missing element, maybe not, is the USP-1's ability to integrate the sub in analogue. Hence the question, can the UMC-200 do the same or similar?Cheers Gary The short answer is no. Bass management is performed in the "digital" domain, not analog. If you want to integrate your sub using an analog source and input, the signal will be converted to digital, bass management applied, then converted back to analog for output. It would be the same principles as what you would encounter with your UMC-1. There's nothing different between the two in that regard. One caveat... Just like the UMC-1, the 7.1 analog inputs of the UMC-200 are "direct (to the output stages) only". No bass management can be applied to that specific input at all. Thanks for that, it looks like the USP-1 stays right where it is, which is hardly a burden. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 18, 2013 23:20:06 GMT -5
On the subject of cool features, any news on the blue tooth module for the UMC-200?
Cheers
Gary
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Post by yves on Feb 19, 2013 7:26:28 GMT -5
On the subject of cool features, any news on the blue tooth module for the UMC-200? Only that it's blue. =P |
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Post by AudioHTIT on Feb 19, 2013 11:00:14 GMT -5
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As I mentioned before, I'm happy with the way my UMC-200 is currently configured.
but yeah, I'm happy for now so I'll leave it at that ;D
