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Post by Porscheguy on Dec 30, 2012 11:40:33 GMT -5
Jim Milton has already posted a thread about this, but since then I've been posting in the comments section ( as Mercedesman) and have got some pretty straight responses from the author.. Have a look.... And leave your comments too!! www.hometheater.com/content/amp-ages-why-power-matters
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stiehl11
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Post by stiehl11 on Dec 30, 2012 11:56:27 GMT -5
I like your response to the author.
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Post by sharkman on Dec 30, 2012 13:37:31 GMT -5
It seems like whenever less than gushing comments about Emotiva appear on some other site fans feel a disturbance in the force. Emotiva is what it is though. They don't need us hunting down any negative comment to defend them. Some people will like Emotiva and some won't. It's no big deal.
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Post by flamingeye on Dec 30, 2012 13:54:55 GMT -5
Emotiva has been a blessing to me especially since my budget has become fixed somewhat , but like all things what I have to say about them is my opinion and mine lone , some may agree and some may not. the only real important thing is that Emotiva keeps succeeding and improving IMHO
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Post by Jim on Dec 30, 2012 13:59:57 GMT -5
I'm really impressed that he responded, especially with such an articulate response.
I think he just admitted something that lots of us know, that Emotiva amps are competing with amps costing 4x as much. I'm actually impressed that he admitted that, because most of the time reviewers are busy saying that "you get what you pay for" and a lower priced amp must be junk.
Dealer amps and direct sales are different markets....... and they're competing for the same customers --- but some of them are always going to want to buy it from a dealer...... Can't change that fact. Just like the fact that I have very little interest in most products that you can only buy from a dealer!!! I'd love to hear/see stuff in person, but I'd rather get my teeth drilled than haggle about price with a dealer.
All in all, I thought his response was pretty positive about Emotiva.
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Post by Jim on Dec 30, 2012 14:01:37 GMT -5
It seems like whenever less than gushing comments about Emotiva appear on some other site fans feel a disturbance in the force. Emotiva is what it is though. They don't need us hunting down any negative comment to defend them. Some people will like Emotiva and some won't. It's no big deal. ......But it's fun! I get your point though.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Dec 30, 2012 14:06:32 GMT -5
Rob Sabin does complement Emotiva.....I give him kudos for that. I personally am extremely happy that Emotiva is around and allows me to own products that are truly well made and sound great and are priced well. Without them I would continue to buy and use mid-fi components because I cannot afford the luxury of Krell or Bryston.
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Post by briank on Dec 30, 2012 14:09:29 GMT -5
I appreciate Rob Sabin's honest and straightforward response and agree with what he has to say. I look forward to their in-house review of Emotiva products.
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Post by audiofile on Dec 30, 2012 15:56:12 GMT -5
I agree that the "backhanded" compliments received diminish the value and consumer perception of the Emotiva products. I'm glad I stumbled into the lounge one night and found Emotiva.
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Post by GreenKiwi on Dec 31, 2012 3:27:28 GMT -5
A would love to see some actual double blind tests...
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 5:22:31 GMT -5
A would love to see some actual double blind tests... Well, that would be impossible since you have to be wearing a blind fold.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 6:59:11 GMT -5
Thanks Ed for this thread. I really want to get 100% serious for a quick post.
I, in my earlier days, was in factory, wholesale and retail product sales for a number of different products. The specific products are not my point but the very clever/intelligent way in which the best marketing and sales folks elevate their products to the top of the class is. This is especially interesting with a product that is at the top of the price schedule. I want to highlight several of Mr. Sabin's remarks from his post in the comments section:
..... First, whether you believe me or not, amplifiers sound different ...... Take two different amps rated at the same per-channel power capabilities (measured all channels driven, please), put them on a REVEALING speaker with other electronics in the chain staying exactly the same, and a trained audiophile ear will hear differences ...... They may be spatial differences evident in soundstage or the precision of imaging within that soundstage, they may be differences in dynamics and how the speaker maintains control or otherwise interacts with the speaker elements, but you'll hear differences that the specs tell you should not be evident. I learned this early in my career at The Absolute Sound magazine, where at any given moment we had state of the art speakers in our reference systems that revealed differences in virtually every tiny change we made in the system. Even the differences in interconnect and speaker cables on high end systems like that are immediately evident, though I believe many enthusiasts who operate in the realm of normal purchasing power are not likely to hear differences when upgrading to uber-expensive high end cables. ..... The point here: If you've got really decent gear surrounding it, you'll hear what makes a great amp great. ..... A John Curl amp is a John Curl amp, and a Dan D'Agostino amp is a Dan D'Agostino amp ...... Steve Guttenberg ..... recently purchased a used Krell amp ..... Steve knew the amp because he'd sold that very unit back when he was a high end audio salesman, and he bought it back from the same customer many years later. It just sounds amazing in his system ...... Whatever these guys know about designing amps, it's golden, and it's not just about hitting a spec. As a company, you can't fully reproduce that magic in your products without a truly gifted designer behind you.
That brings us to Emotiva. ..... an Internet-only operation focused on trying to deliver high-end value and sonics ..... From what I learned about Emotiva's design approach ..... they'd meet if not exceed their specs and look flat as a pancake in their response characteristics. What I can't tell you about, though, without listening on a great reference system or giving them to a reviewer on our staff who does, is their "magic" factor. That's the more subjective part of the experience that makes a Krell a Krell or a Curl a Curl.
We'll find out when we get a chance to test these (Emo amps) .
Yeah, I can write almost word for word what that review will say. Complimentary but just not quite up to the magic sound quality of the best (highest priced amps). Only if you have the very best associated equipment will you be able to hear the magic (plus of course that all important set of golden audiophile trained ears).
Mr. Sabin is obviously very skilled in the masters of art high end audiophile verbal and written persuasion. As soon as I saw the reference to TAS (The Absolute Sound) I knew his Audiophile DNA. Even the title TAS implies the arrogance of these folks and their "our ears and equipment is on a magic level that you common folk can't experience." Does his comment about "trying to deliver high-end value and sonics" give you a hint on how he is not so subtly trashing Emo amps?
I would like to bring Mr. Sabin into a room with identical source and equipment except for the amps, one a John Curl amp and one a Dan D'Agostino amp (Steve Guttenberg can come too). Let's see if he can consistently identify one amp over the other. If he actually could then the percentage would be so minute that the multiple times costs over the Emo amp would be in no way reasonable to any fiscally responsible person.
There is an entire portion of our industry and hobby devoted to these ultra expensive products. Many publications earn their keep advertising these products and writing magic subjective reviews. Many folks of endless bank accounts enjoy their purchases of these very finely constructed products and that of course is their right. My comments are for us more fiscally challenged folks who might be tempted to spend 4 times or more for a Parasound amp over an Emotiva amp, for example. Save your money folks. Do your own test if you think there might be any significant difference, it is not that difficult. Remember any comparison is not 100% valid or even close unless the comparison is in the same room with the same exact associated equipment.
Buy your Emotiva amp unless you flat out hate the looks and be happy as a clam in a no digging for clams designated area. Do not look back. Do not fall to the many temptations to "listen" to an amp in a dealers place. If you have Monku DNA and just can't control your compulsive spending urges then make sure the dealer allows you to take home a demo amp at night when they are closed, no reasonable dealer will say no as long as you charge the amp on a credit card with the promise to return it at opening the next day in exchange for a new amp or 100% return credit. I have done this more than once and it lets you know which dealers are interested in making a sale at least to me.
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Post by Porscheguy on Dec 31, 2012 9:07:01 GMT -5
Well said Chuck. I think the over riding point that I was trying to make is that there is such a diminished return in gains in SQ for money spent in AV, and the bell curve is in full force in this industry. I think it's so true that a lot of people earn a nice living either making or saying nice things about "boutique" products and many truly do drink the Kool Aid and fall in lock step as it's in their own financial interest.
Sure, buy a pair of Krell 900E Mono Blocs at $37,000.00 a piece (please though, tell me what could possibly be in that little box to elevate the price to that level?) hook them up through some $4000.00 Tara Labs speaker interconnects to some $200,000.00 a pair Wilson Alexandria speakers, and yes, I would expect a huge, all encompassing blow your mind music experience - but $275,000.00?? I submit to you that you can achieve 95% of that for a tenth of the price or less..
Magico Q1 bookshelf speakers............... $20,000.00 a pair. Huh?
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Post by audiofile on Dec 31, 2012 10:15:46 GMT -5
Where do I sign up for the "trained audiophile ear" class?
Do you receive the training along with the endorsement payment? Not sure how this works...
I'm sure that will help me be more discerning when I purchase new audio equipment.
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Post by garbulky on Dec 31, 2012 10:20:59 GMT -5
So, the basic problem is that the guy didn't say that emotiva was equal or better to equipment costing many many times its price and change their magazine title to emotivamag - the only source for your electronic needs. I thought the responses the magazine gave were very good. At no point did they diss emotiva. In fact they praised them even more. However, they also mentioned why they really liked other gear. Nothing wrong with that IMO
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Post by Porscheguy on Dec 31, 2012 11:12:55 GMT -5
So, the basic problem is that the guy didn't say that emotiva was equal or better to equipment costing many many times its price and change their magazine title to emotivamag - the only source for your electronic needs. I thought the responses the magazine gave were very good. At no point did they diss emotiva. In fact they praised them even more. However, they also mentioned why they really liked other gear. Nothing wrong with that IMO You're right. He was very candid admitting that a lot of high dollar AV is a sham.... Very few in the industry would admit that, sort of biting the hand that feeds you.... :-)
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Erwin.BE
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Post by Erwin.BE on Dec 31, 2012 11:44:46 GMT -5
chuckienut,
I agree with you 100%. BTW, the dude's name is Sabin, not Saban.
And there's better value out there than Emotiva amps as far as improving one's audio system on a budget is concerned. Take a look at the Stealth 8. I dare you to come up with a better performing combination of crossovers, amps and speakers for this money. I need to hear them and see plots, but I have high confidence. I might sell my XPR-5 and not build big speakers afterall.
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Post by GreenKiwi on Dec 31, 2012 12:28:09 GMT -5
A would love to see some actual double blind tests... Well, that would be impossible since you have to be wearing a blind fold. LoL =P
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Post by thepcguy on Dec 31, 2012 13:05:29 GMT -5
I posted this comment there:
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2012 15:29:29 GMT -5
Where do I sign up for the "trained audiophile ear" class? Do you receive the training along with the endorsement payment? Not sure how this works... I'm sure that will help me be more discerning when I purchase new audio equipment. Sorry, that class is now full. Try next semester ;D
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