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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2013 23:58:26 GMT -5
I decided that once my Denon's Audyssey got working really well, and after adjusting some speakers around, that it sounded really good to me. The analog inputs that come out from my pc sound far superior than the hdmi cable (Denon gain stage.) If I did not care about audyssey I would jump for the UMC-200 without question, and given that you have EQ gear, I would say go for it, but thats just me.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2013 1:11:08 GMT -5
I think the reason that my PC analog audio sounds better via my good soundcard as opposed to running HDMI to the Denon 3312CI, is the Preamp stage. I just noticed that the analog input to my Denon from the PC is recieving a much louder signal than when it is fed HDMI from my PC. The difference is not a small amount either. The dynamics open up via my analog outputs, are at a higher dB output naturally. The HDMI input is very lacking in comparison. I run 2ch music by analog from my PC and then add Audyssey into the chain, sounds clean and is very relaxing.
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Post by dougc on Jul 7, 2013 14:25:35 GMT -5
Tyler, yea fianances I can totally relate. Right now its taking everything I've got to hang on to my house. On the other hand audio wise it sounds like you got it all figured out. Good job.
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Post by dougc on Jul 7, 2013 14:51:42 GMT -5
On my end I think I have it all figured out also. I completely forgot that 4 yrs. ago when I built my mains and center speakers I included 3 and 6 ohm resistors to autenate the tweeters and built a zobel network for the mids. But seeing how my Yamaha was so enimic on the top end I opted not to use them. You see my woofers hooked up in parallel are only 89-90db. where as my mids and tweeters are 93db. So anyway I hooked up the 3ohm to the tweeters and the zobel to the mids and wow what a difference, nice and balanced. I also hooked up my old Toshiba to use for music (cd's) and only using the LG Blueray for movies. As far as the rest of it the bottom line is the Yammy has to go. It was ok as a receiver I guess. But the Emotiva 700 doesn't like it as a pre-amp.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2013 6:43:14 GMT -5
Absolutely on the money ordeal. I am so glad that you got it your setup working so much better. I had a feeling something was up because the treble was cleaner on the Emotiva amps than my Denon's power section. Though there is always that gear to gear complication and audible flavoring. I totally get what you mean on the dB with the sections of the speaker. I bet the Toshiba hooked up for music also is one heck of a new treat without spending money! I would go for that Emotiva preamp that we were chatting about earlier on, with the analog volume control section, it makes me curious! Each time that I tinker with speakers from what I read online, I typically get an improvement, and it feels like new speakers each time that I get it correct. Have you played around with the rake of your speakers or toe in? The rake is the vertical stance, toe in has to do with the direction facing inwards to the center imaging, toe out...the opposite. I spent an hour or so playing with each separately, and got the rake much better, got it to hit my ears where the treble, mid and woofers sounded to my liking (made a decent difference).
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Post by dougc on Jul 8, 2013 21:28:12 GMT -5
The reason the Yamaha has to go, is because the amp is doing it's job. It is reproducing what it's being fed, damn Emotiva I mean that in a good way. The DSP modes on the Yammy for music suck. I have like 8-10 modes for music and only 2 sound acceptable ( rock and disco). The rock mode,"the bass is bloated and totally over power the mids and highs (muffled). The Disco mode," The bass sounds natural and tight, but the mids and highs are boosted way to much". That is where my problem was coming in. As far as the rake, I built my mains and center with a 4 degree rake because of the db. diff. and the planner/ribbon mids and tweeters being so much faster than the woofers.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 11:52:40 GMT -5
Sweet on the rake . Tweaks here and there! I at first did not like Audyssey, and once I used a tripod and ran all of the locations possible for the calibration (used single position for all) it sounded superb to me. I used to only use Direct mode on the Denon. Now I definitely want to get an Audyssey XT32 preamp with Ext. 7.1 and preouts, because my PC audio card beats the living crud out of the Denon DAC audible wise. It sounds airy with the PC audio card DAC, and not pinched dynamically like it does with the HDMI to the Denon's DAC. For now I run music from my pc with a 2ch analog cable, but for gaming/movies above 2ch, I am stuck with HDMI (bypasses my audio card DAC) until I get a Ext. 7.1 capable preamp, and hopefully there is one that will engage Audyssey xt32 over that. I have read that the cheaper models are a full analog path which is typically better, but I want the Audyssey over it. My audio card going into the Denon as analog then back to the digital realm to get Audyssey XT, still sounds better than the hdmi route staying digital until it is ready to hit the speakers, haha. In the end, I want to use my audio card dac for up to 7.1 analog, with a Denon that has Ext. 7.1 with Audyssey XT32 on those connections, with preouts, and ability to turn off the power section to wired speakers if it has speaker terminals. We can dream can't we.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 12:14:49 GMT -5
DougC and Tiwer1, I am sooo glad that you boys have chimed in with your experiences regarding speaker setup. It can be truly astonishing how much of an improvement can be had by simply playing with speaker positioning (rake and toe-in). And these "tweaks" cost you nothing but a few hours of seat time. I remember spending *hundreds* of hours diddling with these adjustments back when I was selling hi-end gear. I didn't have any measurement devices available to me except for my ears, but with enough trial and error I was able to effect remarkable improvements to sound quality.
Folks who stress over cables, interconnects, and such are really missing the boat. There is *nothing* that beats proper placement and setup of your speakers when it comes to achieving the best sound quality. And once you've got the speakers "dialed-in", then it is time to use something like Audyssey to get that final measure of sound quality.
Remember folks, you are dealing with a "system", and there is nothing more important than the speaker/room interaction...
-RW-
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 12:35:43 GMT -5
Thanks rlw! Absolutely amazing what can be done with attention to detail! Ingenuity is typically superb . The best things that I have done in the last year, that has made such a dramatic improvement, has been; addition of an Emotiva UPA-700 (using 5ch but wanted the bigger transformer over the UPA-500), addition of XPA-200 for front 2ch, rake, toe in, decent placement from the wall in the sweet spots for subs as well. As you pointed out, Audyssey is the last step, it should never be the first. I hope to someday be able to work on acoustically treating this room, as I definitely have some issues and huge low frequency gain in the corner and where the center is. Audyssey shows a near 10dB drop around 100-140hz to get towards a flat response, which made one heck of an improvement, it definitely removed mud! lol. Looks like you have some great gear rlw! The Oppo player, and the DLP may be similar model to what my parents still have. Sennheiser makes some great headphones too, as you have. I had some airport foldable kind that they had years ago, pretty sure they still make them in a different model number.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 13:18:53 GMT -5
Thanks for the compliments, Tiwer1! I spent a *long* time thinking about the gear that I wanted and even longer waiting to find someone who was selling it for the right price. But I keep my gear for many years and I certainly don't mind buying used gear. The only piece that I bought brand new was my Mitsu 60" DLP HDTV. About 3 years ago, one of the online retailers was blowing them out for $840 delivered to my door. And it also came with a free wireless LG Bluray player - w00t! That's an awful lot of video goodness for less than $850!!! <g>
-RW-
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2013 13:35:14 GMT -5
WOW! Indeed it is! I got my Denon 3312CI refurbed from an authorized reseller, for $400-500 off of msrp, which it was still available new at time of purchase. Well, there are 70's and 80's 2ch integrated yamahas and kenwoods that blow this Denon apart, weigh twice as much, feature stainless steel, and huge transformers. New isn't necessarily better! . That sounds awesome. I have a 3DTV but use my computer with it almost exclusively, where I have high resolution audio support over hdmi and a bluray drive installed, but cannot fathom getting another tv until 4k is standardized enough for computers to game at, and run movies at. I had my last Sony Bravia XBR for only a few years before I sold it, and it was great, but not as much as my current Sony. I have got to spend money wise when I have it. I do not put money towards driving places, or anything like drugs, so people say...why don't you go socialize, it's because this is my enjoyment. There are great people, and even more of the horrid it seems like. This is the only hobby and part of my life that I have thrown money around at other than automobiles! I never regret it, but know that there have been a couple areas in the past before this layout, that I could have been smarter about. I get wiser each day. Listen on . BTW, tuning by ear I have been told is the way to get it dialed in closer than you may feel could be done by auto calibration devices.
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Post by dougc on Jul 11, 2013 21:09:12 GMT -5
RLW, I couldn't have said it better myself, about the speaker placement and cables. Time alignment is critical, and cables are way over rated. Doug C
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Post by dougc on Jul 12, 2013 22:29:06 GMT -5
Hey Tyler I am so glad you made that comment about 70's and 80'Yamaha Integrated amps. I totally forgot I have one out in my shop all boxed up. I have a 1983 Yamaha A-500 that I retired in 2000 when I bought my Yamaha RX-v 596 AVR. Anyway I pulled it out and , took my air compressor blew all the dust out of it. This was perfect timing because one channel just went out on my Marantz SR 2000 in my garage. Any way out of curiosity I did a A/B listening comparison with my Yamaha 596 in my living room that is now my pre-amp and your right ,it blew my receiver away on 2ch contest. What was I thinking, I was another victim of 5.1 even though in 2ch. mode the 1983 Integrated amp blew it away.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2013 12:40:21 GMT -5
That is awesome Doug! So did you just compare the integrated power sections of both, or did you run one from the Emotiva. I have no idea how it would hold up to the Emotiva, but as far as integrated power, those old beasts are amazing. In fact I saw an older 2ch selling for 400 on craigslist or maybe more, it was stainless, not sure what brand, but it was SPOTLESS.....I was jealous! He had everything looked over on the inside even. Had pics of the power section and everything, you should have seen the two transformers . I remember the older units that my parents had, being real loud compared to anything newer that was integrated that I had gotten hand of. Unfortunately, we left it as part of the sale of another property with many things left in still as a ready to move in. I definitely am scratching my neck on that one haha! The problem with these newer units, is more space consumption for video support, and you would have less space to power more than 2 channels even in older rigs, to put power sections. Right now I think I am going to get nautious.....I know for a fact that this looks exactly like one of the ones my parents had (in my mind), I don't know if they still have it...it has class A as a switch or AB, ....I am going to have to take some time and check the garages out and closets. www.vintageaudiorepair.nl/images/yamaha/ca800/23.jpgThe Kenwood model 600 was left with the property...omg NooOOoOOoOoo. www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-Beast-Kenwood-Supreme-Model-600-300W-Audiophile-Pre-Main-Amplifier-/330646456740
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Post by dougc on Jul 20, 2013 11:57:06 GMT -5
That sucks about the Kenwood, that was a really nice amp. I used to have a old Sansui Integrated amp that looked EXACTLY like it. I always wondered if it was the same amp with a different name on it. Unfortunatly that was before computers so there was really no way to investigate or confirm it. All I know is that was the best Integrated amp that I have ever owned. I acquired it used about a week or 2 after I bought my Yamaha A-500 new, I was depressed I spent 5 or 6 hundred on the Yamaha and only 50.00 on the Sansui. That Sansui walk all over my Yamaha no comparison in sight. Unfortunatly I left all my stereo equiptment with a supposed friend when I left for the army. When I came back a few yrs. later a bunch of my stuff was gone,(Sansui amp, tuner, Akai professional cassette recorder, Advent speakers } and a few more items my pea size brain can't remember, CRS.
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Post by dougc on Jul 20, 2013 12:50:18 GMT -5
Oh yea to answer your question. I tested the 2 Yamaha's on their own power sources (amps) in 2ch. stereo. That's all the A-500 is, but sound wise it was far superior to my RX-V596. But after all if you go back on the computer and check out the reviews on the Yamaha RX-V596 it's 2ch music sucks (poor reviews). The DSP music modes sound better until hooked up the Emotiva then the truth comes out. They even sound like sh**. What is ironic though, is that movie modes for DVD's or even TV sound completely awesome. No complaints there, but then again I have nothing to compare it to either. Come tax time the UMC 200 is going to be sitting at my door step, unless money falls out of the sky into my lap. I have a feeling tax time will come first. Any way gotta go. Doug
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2013 15:33:52 GMT -5
Awesome! HAHA I had a feeling it would tackle that Yamaha to pieces! Awesome that you are going after the UMC-200....definitely will want to hear what you think of it! The analog volume control seems so huge to me . Oh we've all had those lovely friend decisions. I am pretty much cave adapted in my life...but have a few really good friends. Nobody is perfect..but glad you made it to where you are and have the pleasure of some good music and equipment!
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Post by dougc on Jul 21, 2013 10:19:54 GMT -5
The only thing that makes me worry about the UMC 200 is, I see nothing about DSP modes. I mean for movies I have no doubt it will be awesome, but for music I wonder. I mean I like my surround sound. Most of the cd's I listen to are older 70's and early 80's rock. They were only recorded in 2ch or pro logic at it's best. That's where the DSP modes come in, to give you that surround sound or at least quadraphonic sensation with the addition of subs. I'm sure Emotiva has thought about this and there is something, after all it's nothing new. But from advertisement purposes they don't show anything, and from this stand point I'm not sure that I'm sold. On the other hand I could be completely blind or even missing the boat somewhere, it wouldn't be the first. Doug C
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2013 19:52:56 GMT -5
Hmm...yeah with the dsp modes, I forget and have not looked at the UMC-200 in a bit. I never liked dsp even when Dobly Pro Logic first came out...the punch went away. Quadraphonic I can understand using sort of. Do you have some high quality recordings that sound like 7.1 from 2ch, while only using a sub and 2 speakers? That is how it sounds for me, and the pyschoacoustics you could mess up with running more than 2 speakers at a time. If it is something you really want, you definitely will have to scrape the forums to see if you can find anything for dsp modes. I don't really know. The one thing that I like to have is 5.1 undergoing dot matrix processing to get 6.1 or 7.1, which seems to work dang well for me. Do you have a main purpose for your setup, or is it about 50/50 on music/movies?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 25, 2013 20:51:24 GMT -5
Doug, I could not believe what I found in the garage. I could have SWORN that the Kenwood was sold with the property, but I found it. It is fully operational, dual monoblock down to 4ohms. Now get this, It has the option of using the volume dial as a normal integrated 2ch unit, but it has a switch on the back labeled separate, and pre-inputs. I am testing it as a 2ch unit right now, and it is phenomenal even without Audyssey enabled, and controlling the volume via the Denon. The volume control becomes unresponsive on the Kenwood when in the power amp only mode. The kick from this thing in the low end on the Martin Logans is breathtaking. I think I may have a front 2ch replacement, but have not tested with Audyssey. Leaving me with a UPA-700 and a XPA-200, what to do with the XPA-200, run just the center with it, unfortunately the center does not have biwiring as an option. My other option is to run the side L and R with the XPA-200 and let the UPA-700 power only rears and Center...sigh. I have pictures of the unit cleaned off...it is in amazing condition in my opinion.
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