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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2013 15:55:24 GMT -5
dougc. Thinking about my situation for audio when the audio card does the DAC process. LPCM (decoded externally before being sent to my Denon), and Bitstream (Denon unpacking and decoding), both sound flat and lack dynamics in comparison to the analog path from my audio card. I never noticed this before. This must mean that since being fed both an unpacked and packed digital signal as 2 tests, with the same slimmed sound, tells me that the DAC is very subpar compared to my audio cards ability. This is what has me wanting the UMC-200. It is enough to say that my speakers sound much more airy and dynamic. My Father heard the difference immediately when I switched from analog to digital inputs on the Denon. The DAC in the UMC-200 is supposed to be really good. I have put my Denon up for sale for the price of the UMC-200, fingers crossed. I have no idea if I would be running analog or HDMI audio with the UMC-200, it would have to be similar or above my audio card DAC for me to yield that task. I will let you know if I get further in this process. :b. I found a plugin for Foobar2000 (music player) to copy the bass to the LFE channel for analog output, while keeping the fronts full range, as the UMC-200 would be purely an analog path according to its documentation. Otherwise I would not have LFE for 2ch music. Not sure with a turntable via 2ch inputs.
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Post by dougc on May 15, 2013 20:56:37 GMT -5
Tyler, sorry when you start talking about DAC's and playing and burning music on the computer. Well , lets just say,"I am lost" I am pretty much computer illiterate. I don't even Know how to burn a CD. I am wanting to get the UMC-200, because I feel like my 12yr. old Yamaha is holding the UPA 700 back. I mean you can have a 800 hp. motor, and if you stick a peice of crap 2 bbl. carburator on it. Well it's probably not going to run very good.
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2013 10:41:08 GMT -5
dougc. Depends what you are using it for, and how good that section of the unit performs, and to your ears more importantly. The DAC is the digital to analog conversion, our speakers run analog, and vinyl never hits the digital domain, which is amazing as there can be poor components in the stages that work alongside the DAC. I do not use my Denon for anything but audio, so I really only want a unit that has 7.1 ext in, and 7.1 preouts, without a power section preferred. I am hoping to sell this Denon and get the UMC-200 for the completely analog 7.1 ext in and analog preamp section which seems to be raved about. If I cannot manage that, I can also get a used older Denon on Craigslist for cheap and gain money selling this Denon. Saw a Denon for 150 or 130, that had all that I wanted. Keep you posted.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2013 19:03:31 GMT -5
dougc - I got an email back from a person at Emotiva, and the EXT. 7.1 is an analog only path, while the 2ch inputs can be played in Stereo and hit the Bass Management feature, which could be nice for analog sources for people who want to add the addition of subs alongside.
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Post by dougc on May 18, 2013 14:06:34 GMT -5
Tyler that is great news. I was starting to wonder, I mean even my 12yr, old Yamy can play subs w/2ch. stereo. I can't wait to get the UMC-200. I am still wondring about my UPA-700. I need to call Emotiva, the top end (aprox. 8khz - 20khz.) is on overload. It makes my tweeters sound like their on steriods and actually the top end of the midrange as well. I have 10 different brands of speakers around my property and 6 diff. stereo systems. All my speakers sound great hooked up to my diff. systems except the UPA-700. Every brand of speakers I own sound overly bright on the UPA. I am getting discouraged.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 14:16:32 GMT -5
dougc - I can see that definitely being discouraging. I will say that a jump from integrated's alone, between the 3312CI and my previous, the 1910?... The top end on integrated power changed between the two units, less harsh on highs with the 3312CI, but literally absent of bass (review quoted anemic on bass.) Do you have another unit that you can use pre-outs with, or have you tried that already. Components have a flavor, and I am very curious on your older unit. I just saw an integrated dual mono block stereo pioneer amp from the 80s on craigslist for 400 bucks, immaculate and built like a tank, and was looked over by some stereo guru, huge caps etc. Things are not always the build they used to be. I would put my money on your preamp/integrated? unit you have being the culprit. I will say that the UPA-700/XPA-200 mix, is less harsh than the power section from the Denon 3312CI in your mid and highs.
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Post by Deleted on May 18, 2013 14:48:55 GMT -5
dougc, are you running both analog and digital with the same results, if you are only running digital, try something using analog outputs even if its from a digital device. I found the Digital anything is way less open sounding compared to analog inputs on my Denon; (from my pc audio card at least). Probably something to do with the components tied to the DAC that converts digital to analog before going out to the speakers.
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Post by dougc on May 20, 2013 23:38:15 GMT -5
dougc - I can see that definitely being discouraging. I will say that a jump from integrated's alone, between the 3312CI and my previous, the 1910?... The top end on integrated power changed between the two units, less harsh on highs with the 3312CI, but literally absent of bass (review quoted anemic on bass.) Do you have another unit that you can use pre-outs with, or have you tried that already. Components have a flavor, and I am very curious on your older unit. I just saw an integrated dual mono block stereo pioneer amp from the 80s on craigslist for 400 bucks, immaculate and built like a tank, and was looked over by some stereo guru, huge caps etc. Things are not always the build they used to be. I would put my money on your preamp/integrated? unit you have being the culprit. I will say that the UPA-700/XPA-200 mix, is less harsh than the power section from the Denon 3312CI in your mid and highs. Everything I am running is Digital fiber-optic. I do have a old Proton reciever in my backroom that has preouts that I'm gonna try. We'll see how that goes. Hopefully it's just my Yammy as a preamp being the problem. I don't know, My Yamaha was enemic in the top end as a AVR, then I added my Carver and it was perfect. Mids and highs came to life but not over bering, nice and even with the bass. I just hope it's not the amp, especially since I'm way past the 30 day return policy.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2013 23:57:15 GMT -5
First I would try running an analog source into it and see if it sounds the same. My Digital and Analog inputs sound very different on the Denon, analog being easily superior. Even if you happen to have an issue with your amp, you are still warrantied and they would send you one for free and you put yours in the box and drop it off at a center, with the shipping prepaid by them as well. I wouldn't sweat, but I would check all of your angles first. Try an analog input if its easier, because it would be a good test I think. I personally have a hunch that when I get to the UMC-200 that my top end harshness will lower due to the gain section inside of it, and better DAC's. Keep me posted.
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Post by dougc on May 21, 2013 19:39:10 GMT -5
Tyler I'll try that. I'll disconnect the fiber optics from my DVD player and run rca's and give that a try. Depending on how that goes maybe I'll try the Proton too,just to see tonal diff. between 2 diff. pre-amps. Hopefully not on the later though, seeing how I have 5 diff, components conected to it. I'll keep you posted.
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Post by dougc on May 28, 2013 21:53:44 GMT -5
Well I tried running a couple of analog sources through my Yamaha. Some were better ,some were worst. Then I tried my Proton to find out the preouts dont work on it anymore. I have a friend comming over this weekend with a couple of old preamps I sold him a few years ago. They still work great, ones an old Marantz the other is an old Hafler. We'll see how that goes.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 23:41:29 GMT -5
Aww bummer on the preouts. I fiddled with Audyssey XT on the Denon again. Ran the wizard with the mic in my palm rather than resting on a flat surface where reflections would enter the mic from near field. The results were actually an improvement, a huge one at that. It took a few days to adjust to the difference of sound. I will keep my Denon afterall. I will wait for Audyssey XT32 devices to come down in price for Marantz/Denon units. I am hoping to get more speakers and finish that before changing units, or getting some acoustic treatment done. Yeah, keep me up to date on the preout stuff, interested to see what you find out about it.
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Post by dougc on Jun 4, 2013 21:59:45 GMT -5
Still haven't figured anything out. My friend had an emergency come up and had to head to Cal. We're ganna try this weekend. I am pos. it's the amp. I hooked up my Carver again out of curiousity and it awesome. But that's only 2 ch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2013 6:50:14 GMT -5
Very interesting. I guess I do not have any other amps to test against in this environment, only that it was less bright than the Denon AVR units that I have possessed. I suppose you cannot be sure that its the power amp without testing the other half at the same time. You haven't tried a different preout section yet have you?
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Post by dougc on Jun 16, 2013 18:26:34 GMT -5
Well I'm still not sure whats going on with the UPA 700. I finally got to try out a couple of other Preamps, one being a 2ch Marantz. It was ok, in some aspects I think the Yammy sounded better. The other being a 5.1 Hafler. All I can say is ,"I'm sorry I sold it". It sounded awesome. Then after returning everything back to my Yamaha, I hooked up an old Toshiba SD4900 DVD player I had in the backroom. It has both optical and 5.1 analog outputs. My current LG Blueray player has digital outputs only. So anyway I hooked up both the analog 5.1 and the digital on the Toshiba, then I got 2 copies of the same Matalica DVD stuck 1 in each player and started doing A/B listening. Guess what? My old Toshiba blew my LG Blueray player away, in both digital and analog. Unfortunatly it doesn't have HDMI out to the tv.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 17, 2013 19:05:52 GMT -5
Very interesting. Did the Toshiba digital or analog, sound fine from what you were hearing that you think might be the power amp? I am a bit shallow on some of the digital stuff, however I find it odd that the digital out would sound any different on devices, if it didn't hit the analog realm first in the circuitry before leaving the gear digitally to a preamp. Probably something that I do not grasp. So the Hafler, how did that sound paired with the Emotiva regarding that audible annoyance you have been hearing from your Yamaha? The fact that your LG bluray player doesn't have analog outs, sounds like a humongous cost saving decision, bypassing any analog requirements and passing it all over to your preamp to do the sound. Leads me again to curiosity why it would sound different via digital outs on different devices. Mixing and matching devices is a pain huh, especially trying to pinpoint things such as this that you are experiencing. Any more ideas what to try? My update ->I found out my dad has a tripod, so I ran it in the chair where my head sits for Audyssey, and bass jumped back up in all speakers, where it was lacking on prior Audyssey tests, high frequencies got much more tamed, enough to bypass room treatment for me to be happy . I have two mismatched subs, one by each front speaker, with only one sub EQ in Audyssey, so I stacked them in one spot, ran them separate to match dB levels, then set up Audyssey with both on, for a better freq response and only one side of the room for resonance issues. Both are ported subs, so that sucks as well. Adjusted 2ch speaker rake, to get the mids/tweeters aligned to what felt like a good combination to my ears. Put all your ideas into a big plan, it can come out sounding amazing. Never has it sounded better in here (to me).
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Post by dougc on Jun 18, 2013 21:58:16 GMT -5
Very interesting. Did the Toshiba digital or analog, sound fine from what you were hearing that you think might be the power amp? I am a bit shallow on some of the digital stuff, however I find it odd that the digital out would sound any different on devices, if it didn't hit the analog realm first in the circuitry before leaving the gear digitally to a preamp. Probably something that I do not grasp. So the Hafler, how did that sound paired with the Emotiva regarding that audible annoyance you have been hearing from your Yamaha? The fact that your LG bluray player doesn't have analog outs, sounds like a humongous cost saving decision, bypassing any analog requirements and passing it all over to your preamp to do the sound. Leads me again to curiosity why it would sound different via digital outs on different devices. Mixing and matching devices is a pain huh, especially trying to pinpoint things such as this that you are experiencing. Any more ideas what to try? My update ->I found out my dad has a tripod, so I ran it in the chair where my head sits for Audyssey, and bass jumped back up in all speakers, where it was lacking on prior Audyssey tests, high frequencies got much more tamed, enough to bypass room treatment for me to be happy . I have two mismatched subs, one by each front speaker, with only one sub EQ in Audyssey, so I stacked them in one spot, ran them separate to match dB levels, then set up Audyssey with both on, for a better freq response and only one side of the room for resonance issues. Both are ported subs, so that sucks as well. Adjusted 2ch speaker rake, to get the mids/tweeters aligned to what felt like a good combination to my ears. Put all your ideas into a big plan, it can come out sounding amazing. Never has it sounded better in here (to me). Actually with the Toshiba the mid-range annoyance went away completely and it was only annoying at the extreme top end, and even then it depended on what I was playing (music). Anolog sounded great. Hafler sounded awesome no mater what I threw at it. Oops gotta go, have a war going on with the kids. post more tomarrow. Doug
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Post by Deleted on Jun 19, 2013 1:51:29 GMT -5
Awesome! Sounds like you are onto something there. You have proven to yourself that the Emotiva amp is not the issue at hand, as you had it running with swapped components on the pre-pro end, and it sounded fine. I will try to keep this one short until I hear from you again. I dinked around with a 10 band EQ on my phone's music player, got (headphones/built in speaker/workout room radio with aux input) custom presets tuned for swapping on the fly, and everything sounds so much better in there...such a simple improvement at about 10 minutes work into each. I tinkered with my audio card 10 band EQ to find out where the harsh frequencies were banded around for hz, that were worse in the past on my main setup. It appears to be the 3.5khz-4khz range. Interestingly-> "Most human speech communication takes place between 200 and 8,000 Hz and the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies around 1,000-3,500 Hz." Audyssey implements a roll off curve from 4khz and up if you run the non flat curve setting with it. It tames it a bit, but my really only issue to ear is that 4khz mark normally, and not above it. Higher frequencies are said to be more directional. That high frequency issue has dampered down and is not bothering much anymore unless I have rock really cranked, and then I can just run EQ and dampedn 4khz on my PC before it hits Audyssey Flat. Anywho, things still sound better piece by piece, and am hoping to get more gear in the future .
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Post by dougc on Jun 19, 2013 21:21:29 GMT -5
That's interesting because when I first got the amp I started playing around with my diff. equalizers. I have 3 ( 1, 12band (1) 10 band (1)6 band)although my 6 band Audio Control kicks a-s over the other 2. Anyway I started expriementing with them and right around 3-4khz is where I had to start cutting them. On the flip side, before I got the amp I did a post (UPA 700 vs 12yr Yamaha AVR)something like that. It's on the UPA site, anyway on that site I posted where with my Yamaha I had to boost those freq's. Anyway gotta go, my wife graduates from college tommarrow and we have tons of family showing up. She is at rehersal right now and I have a house to clean. Later, Doug
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Post by dougc on Jun 30, 2013 12:05:06 GMT -5
Tyler have you thought anymore about buying the UMC 200? I am going to buy it as soon as I can.
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