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Post by audiohead on Mar 27, 2013 5:59:49 GMT -5
I'm curious how this is done. I work for a large Fortune 500 company and our electrical components are thrown on a Hipot tester just long enough for the display to stabilize. The point is it does not need to be done. There is no break-in. Again, how could you ever design a loudspeaker system if you thought the T/S parameters would change significantly enough to be heard after use? You could not. Plus, explain how, if a change does occur, it is always in the same direction and always a predictable value? It can't be. +1..Nice.
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guitarforlife
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 27, 2013 10:41:15 GMT -5
OK I'm a big boy so go ahead and let me have it.
I think all of this Break in, cables cords wire so on and so on is just a lot of audio voodoo. That is all it is.
I have been buying stereo for over 40 years and what I bought is what I got. Nothing more nothing less.
Sure some things sound better then others but that's how they were made. And yes some things are lemons
I bought a BIC beam box once it was $100.00 back in the day it was a FM antenna It never worked it never did a thing. Audio Voodoo that's what it was. I could list a dozen things just like it.
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Post by frenchyfranky on Mar 27, 2013 10:43:47 GMT -5
Here are a technicians who dares to speak on the subject. www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/What's happen? What can we do? He did not observed and thinking the same thing of us. Hurry up it's sorcery, bring him to salem and hang him quickly... ;D
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guitarforlife
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 27, 2013 11:29:49 GMT -5
Here are a technicians who dares to speak on the subject. www.eminence.com/2011/06/speaker-break-in/What's happen? What can we do? He did not observed and thinking the same thing of us. Hurry up it's sorcery, bring him to salem and hang him quickly... ;D That's all fine I have read this stuff for years. BUT until I can Hear it with MY OWN EARS My opinion is what I will stay with. Remember its just my opinion and I'm entitled to as well as any one Else's. So it is what it is.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 27, 2013 11:53:55 GMT -5
Actually, while the idea of "breaking in" solid state electronics is mostly a myth, it is indeed a reality for at least some speakers - and for virtually any mechanical part or device with moving parts. The flexible rubber surrounds and spiders on speakers do indeed get softer as they are "exercised", and this results in a change in the free air resonance of the driver. The same is true for phono cartridges; the "compliant suspension" on the cantilever. (It also happens with the suspension springs in your car.) Whether this change will be audible will depend on several other design factors, but it is indeed quite real. For a woofer, the result will typically be slightly greater bass output and a lower low-frequency cutoff (how low it will play). Of course, this process will happen naturally as you play the speaker, but you can accelerate it by playing anything through the speaker that passes through the driver you want to break in (play low frequency noise to break in a woofer). Playing very low frequencies through a woofer allow you to get it moving a significant amount without using enough power to risk overheating it over time. Twenty-four hours or so should be quite sufficient, although the sound may change slightly even after that. And, no, speaker factories do NOT generally play each and every driver for a few days to "break it in". Unless you are making units one at a time in a garage, or are selling uber expensive parts, this is simply not practical. None of this is to discount in any way that the listener will "break in" as well - by becoming used to the sound of a particular piece of equipment. And, yes, tubes also change over time. When a tube is initially manufactured, most of the air is successfully removed (you have a relatively "hard" vacuum). For quite a while, though, the cathode continues to "bake" and release various gases into the vacuum - the vacuum gets slightly "softer" and the surface of the cathode itself changes slightly. Both of these can slightly alter the electrical characteristics of the tube, and POSSIBLY produce slightly audible changes. (Compare a tube to a light bulb, which gradually darkens over time as the tungsten filament evaporates and re-condenses on the glass - eventually leading to the death of the bulb when enough tungsten is gone to render the filament inoperable. The effect is less dramatic, but similar in type.) [Maybe you didn't realize that, when you buy a new car, it doesn't even get the rated MPG until the engine "breaks in" ] The point is it does not need to be done. There is no break-in. Again, how could you ever design a loudspeaker system if you thought the T/S parameters would change significantly enough to be heard after use? You could not. Plus, explain how, if a change does occur, it is always in the same direction and always a predictable value? It can't be. +1..Nice.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 27, 2013 12:08:09 GMT -5
While it is true that fs, Vas and Qts can all change in a dynamic driver during and after use, until the driver is worn out the change is generally insignificant (within a few percent) and totally irrelevant to loudspeaker system performance, and thus crossover and enclosure design. If the change is significant enough to effect system design (or audible performance) then this would make system design extremely difficult if not impossible. It's another of those effects that, while measurable, is acoustically insignificant. edit; By the way, the most significant changes I've ever measured were on a Lowther full-range driver and it changed by almost 20% after a couple days on sine-wave test, making it a driver I would never use in any sort of critical application. But perhaps that's why audiophiles love them: they are the exception that proves their rule.
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pips
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Post by pips on Mar 27, 2013 13:10:20 GMT -5
OK I'm a big boy so go ahead and let me have it. I think all of this Break in, cables cords wire so on and so on is just a lot of audio voodoo. That is all it is. Have you not experienced any differences in the guitar world relating to amps, heads and cabinets and all the assorted cabling choices? Just curious more than anything.
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guitarforlife
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 27, 2013 13:12:16 GMT -5
Keith, I do agree with you on the tube thing. They do change as the are being used. Or used up? And I do understand the mechanics of the speaker Loosening up and the surround flexing. And I'm not contending that on paper or in a lab on a graph do they change what I'm saying is CAN I HEAR IT? ?? But My biggest thing I agree with is the point you made about OUR EARS. getting used to something new or different. And that's were I contend that the as much as the rest matters. It relay dose not. I have read something very similar to this on the guitar forums about guitar strings. It is a huge discussion over Brand X is better then brand Z. I always bought the ones on sale and I could never hear any difference in Tone. But I still had on many occasions other guitar players come up to me and say, you have a great tone what strings are you using? My reply would be the cheapest and oldest strings I have.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 27, 2013 13:17:09 GMT -5
Keith, I do agree with you on the tube thing. They do change as the are being used. Or used up? Tubes age exactly like incandescent light bulbs. Over time, the filament loses intensity and things become "dimmer." Then after enough physical material is burned off, it becomes unstable and "burns out." In most tubes, there is a time period where the physical properties of the tube produces signal distortion that is "most pleasing" to our ears and the tubes sound great, while before and after that time frame maybe it doesn't sound quite so good. This time frame is different for every individual tube, just like the period of most brightness is different for every individual light bulb.
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DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 27, 2013 13:18:05 GMT -5
Loudspeakers do not work that way at all, by the way.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 27, 2013 13:25:23 GMT -5
And whether a few percent of change will make a difference will depend on how well designed the system is overall. For example, if you've tuned a bass reflex cabinet to the resonance of your woofer, with a very high Q, then if that resonance drifts a little bit, you're going to have a problem. (Of course, that would be a horrible design anyway, and even component-to-component variation would be a problem - unless, of course, the initial point and the drift were very consistent between units). In real life, if you want to avoid problems in a serious commercial product, you design to avoid sensitivity to such things.... you assume that your components might vary by 10% or 20% and make sure that the variations will have a minimal effect on your results. In the past there HAVE been audio components that were designed super-critically and where, for example, individually hand-selected parts were required for each unit. (Look up Spica TC-50 or Spica Angelus speakers. In the TC-50, Spica bought cheap drivers, then hand painted them with a stiffening agent, then individually hand sorted and matched drivers of similar efficiency and resonant frequency, and matched them with individually selected crossover components.) This sort of thing was almost practical back when everything was made one at a time by hand, but not any more. In the context of this discussion, however, the point is that any changes likely to occur in a dynamic speaker driver will probably occur in the first 24 or 48 hours..... so you might as well wait that long before making a decision about whether you like something.... It wouldn't surprise me, though, if something like an electrostatic speaker mightn't vary significantly over time. (I've heard that the diaphragms on some ESL's actually get loose over time and require periodic re-treatment with a heat gun to tighten them. Certainly, in cases like that, resonances will appear, disappear, and drift along the way.) While it is true that fs, Vas and Qts can all change in a dynamic driver during and after use, until the driver is worn out the change is generally insignificant (within a few percent) and totally irrelevant to loudspeaker system performance, and thus crossover and enclosure design. If the change is significant enough to effect system design (or audible performance) then this would make system design extremely difficult if not impossible. It's another of those effects that, while measurable, is acoustically insignificant. edit; By the way, the most significant changes I've ever measured were on a Lowther full-range driver and it changed by almost 20% after a couple days on sine-wave test, making it a driver I would never use in any sort of critical application. But perhaps that's why audiophiles love them: they are the exception that proves their rule.
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guitarforlife
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Post by guitarforlife on Mar 27, 2013 13:37:45 GMT -5
OK I'm a big boy so go ahead and let me have it. I think all of this Break in, cables cords wire so on and so on is just a lot of audio voodoo. That is all it is. Have you not experienced any differences in the guitar world relating to amps, heads and cabinets and all the assorted cabling choices? Just curious more than anything. You bet , But it is a whole different animal. For one your fingers and touch, as well as you own personal technique have a lot to with all of your tone. I have spent countless hours in guitar shops and have talked to many other players. Some say a guitar plays better after it is broke in. Which makes a lot of sense. It is wood and no two will be alike. But I have to say I have bought new guitars that play and sound better then my older stuff. And The whole tube thing I put great value in. I know they will change as they age. In fact I like mine when they are Hot and older. I think it is a warmer tone. This is what My ears tell Me. Transistors do not have that smooth warm over drive that the tubes do For me. But there are a lot of famous players that play SS amps and use distortion peddles and they sound awesome. Cords No I don't think that matters as long as I could get one that would last. Besides if cords mattered that much what about all the wireless systems being used by the pros? I mean would NO cord and sending a sound wave though thin air have some effect on tone? It may but again if I cant tell, whats with that? I'm not disputing science what I'm trying to say if I can not hear it then why should it matter or I care? I have read countless books and have seen countless shows on Santa clause, the Easter bunny, Big foot, the lock Ness monster, And the end of the world on 12-21-12 but guess what I still don't believe in any of it.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 14:13:37 GMT -5
Well, Gallo (the makers of my speakers) recommend a break-in period of at least 100 hours before the speakers "settle-in" and produce the sound that Anthony Gallo designed for. I have no reason to doubt him, Gallo make, IMHO, some of the finest speakers in the world at their various price points.
As for this making it "impossible" for a designer to accurately predict how his design will sound post break-in - hogwash. Remember, these guys work with the drivers, cabinets, crossover components, etc. for many, many hours during the design process. And part of the "art" of design is in knowing how much a speaker will change thru the break-in process. So, they throw together the components, run them thru the break-in process and then begin their measurement and listening tests. This is an iterative process and a given design may be changed several times in order to achieve a satisfactory end result.
Does this result in a "night and day" difference, who knows? But I'm willing to accept Anthony's recommendations simply because he has many thousands of hours working with and listening to his designs.
Along these lines, it is interesting to note that companies such as KEF hand-match the drivers of paurs of their better speakers to within +- 1db so as to ensure that both speakers end up sounding the same post break-in. and so that they "image" better than non-matched drivers. Additionally, they also keep a record of the specifications of the drivers in a given pair so that proper replacements can be sourced should the need arise....
-RW-
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Post by briank on Mar 27, 2013 18:08:33 GMT -5
I agree with Keith. I'm a believer in Speaker break-in based on prior listening experiences. I was at a local dealer once and we compared a Revel monitor fresh out of the box with the same model monitor that had been playing on a demo display for a few months. They sounded like totally different speakers. My sub also took some time to break-in. I had to re-run the room correction every month or so as the bass got stronger as the driver surround loosened up. Took about 6 months for the sub due to being used very little when I was in an apartment. I still do not believe in cable break in. I believe people are just becoming accustomed to the sound. With electronics I believe they are broken in after a few hours and everything after that is again the listener getting used to the sound.
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Post by frenchyfranky on Mar 27, 2013 18:09:04 GMT -5
Loudspeakers do not work that way at all, by the way. Sorry for my English, it's my longest writing in the lounge, 25 years ago, the first hi-fi loudspeaker I owned was a pair of Snell Acoustics type E III, I remember that the break in was over a period of 3 to 4 months before they stabilazed at final sounding. During this period the sound wave like rollercoaster from hard and harsh to sweet, soft and opened and repeat this strange cycle a few times for approx 3 months, at last month the changes cycles where a lot more subtle until it completely stabilized. After that break in period the only sound changes where due to extreme weather fluctuation like in summer pretty hot and humid vs dry and cool an other day, the sound results is affected enought that I can hear it, beleive it or not...! Last year I bought a pair of Emotiva ERT-8.3 and I observed again a break in period, shorten this time, one month to pass from hard sounding to very soft and opened and a few weeks more to stabilized. I also note with these loudspeakers that they are affected by differents weather conditions too, I think all speakers and room results are affected by ambiant air density and humidity %, after all the sound is the result of air molecules moving. I don't think that I am subject to placebo or I'm nut, sorry but I really hear the difference. Maybe I can clone my ears and make good business...?
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Post by frenchyfranky on Mar 27, 2013 18:12:15 GMT -5
Thank you KeithL for risking your life..., you could be hanged ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Actually, while the idea of "breaking in" solid state electronics is mostly a myth, it is indeed a reality for at least some speakers - and for virtually any mechanical part or device with moving parts. The flexible rubber surrounds and spiders on speakers do indeed get softer as they are "exercised", and this results in a change in the free air resonance of the driver. The same is true for phono cartridges; the "compliant suspension" on the cantilever. (It also happens with the suspension springs in your car.) Whether this change will be audible will depend on several other design factors, but it is indeed quite real. For a woofer, the result will typically be slightly greater bass output and a lower low-frequency cutoff (how low it will play). Of course, this process will happen naturally as you play the speaker, but you can accelerate it by playing anything through the speaker that passes through the driver you want to break in (play low frequency noise to break in a woofer). Playing very low frequencies through a woofer allow you to get it moving a significant amount without using enough power to risk overheating it over time. Twenty-four hours or so should be quite sufficient, although the sound may change slightly even after that. And, no, speaker factories do NOT generally play each and every driver for a few days to "break it in". Unless you are making units one at a time in a garage, or are selling uber expensive parts, this is simply not practical. None of this is to discount in any way that the listener will "break in" as well - by becoming used to the sound of a particular piece of equipment. And, yes, tubes also change over time. When a tube is initially manufactured, most of the air is successfully removed (you have a relatively "hard" vacuum). For quite a while, though, the cathode continues to "bake" and release various gases into the vacuum - the vacuum gets slightly "softer" and the surface of the cathode itself changes slightly. Both of these can slightly alter the electrical characteristics of the tube, and POSSIBLY produce slightly audible changes. (Compare a tube to a light bulb, which gradually darkens over time as the tungsten filament evaporates and re-condenses on the glass - eventually leading to the death of the bulb when enough tungsten is gone to render the filament inoperable. The effect is less dramatic, but similar in type.) [Maybe you didn't realize that, when you buy a new car, it doesn't even get the rated MPG until the engine "breaks in" ] +1..Nice.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2013 18:19:33 GMT -5
While it is true that fs, Vas and Qts can all change in a dynamic driver during and after use, until the driver is worn out the change is generally insignificant (within a few percent) and totally irrelevant to loudspeaker system performance, and thus crossover and enclosure design. If the change is significant enough to effect system design (or audible performance) then this would make system design extremely difficult if not impossible. It's another of those effects that, while measurable, is acoustically insignificant. Well said, Mark and I were looking over this thread last night and he just rolled his eyes and laughed. He also designs drivers for Morel, Mirage as well as many others. Like you say, if speakers change enough to be audible, designing a speaker would be pretty tough.
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Post by 1960broookwood on Mar 27, 2013 18:33:57 GMT -5
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Post by creimes on Mar 27, 2013 18:41:41 GMT -5
I don't know about anyone else here but I sold my Yamaha receiver due to when it broke in it sounded more like a Denon and I'm not a fan of Denon so I sold the Yamaha and purchased a Denon assuming when it was broken in it would be more like a new Yamaha but sadly it sounded more like a broken in Harmon Kardon so I was screwed again.....oh well I learnt my lesson and went all Emotiva......
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Post by creimes on Mar 27, 2013 18:42:55 GMT -5
Please don't take my response above to heart lol
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