DYohn
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Post by DYohn on Mar 27, 2013 18:44:55 GMT -5
While it is true that fs, Vas and Qts can all change in a dynamic driver during and after use, until the driver is worn out the change is generally insignificant (within a few percent) and totally irrelevant to loudspeaker system performance, and thus crossover and enclosure design. If the change is significant enough to effect system design (or audible performance) then this would make system design extremely difficult if not impossible. It's another of those effects that, while measurable, is acoustically insignificant. Well said, Mark and I were looking over this thread last night and he just rolled his eyes and laughed. He also designs drivers for Morel, Mirage as well as many others. Like you say, if speakers change enough to be audible, designing a speaker would be pretty tough. Not only would design be impossible, so would manufacturing. What QC specs would you use? Also I like to ask anyone who demands "break in" as necessary this: how can any physical change always have desirable magnitude or vector? I know it requires a basic grasp of fundamental physics, but it's impossible: there is a bell-curve and changes will occur in both directions along it. If the change was significant, then about half of them (or at least some statistically significant percentage) would change in a "negative" direction, and the loudspeaker would become unusable. How come I never hear audiophiles complaining that, "After break-in I had to toss out the speaker because it became too tight, dry and brittle sounding."??
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Post by frenchyfranky on Mar 27, 2013 18:57:12 GMT -5
I do not like the controversy, but in this hobby it is inevitable.
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Post by 1960broookwood on Mar 27, 2013 19:05:13 GMT -5
As a skilled tradesman with more than a few years experience most moving parts degrade/wear in a predictable fashion barring contamination or impact damage.
Vibration/fluid analysis provides a highly predictable wear pattern and things loosen up with age and use. Simple physics at it's finest.
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hemster
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Particle Manufacturer
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Post by hemster on Mar 27, 2013 19:06:21 GMT -5
I do not like the controversy, but in this hobby it is inevitable. Well, that's debatable! ;D ;D
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DYohn
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Posts: 18,366
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Post by DYohn on Mar 27, 2013 19:08:30 GMT -5
As a skilled tradesman with more than a few years experience most moving parts degrade/wear in a predictable fashion barring contamination or impact damage. Vibration/fluid analysis provides a highly predictable wear pattern and things loosen up with age and use. Simple physics at it's finest. And then they wear out, yes? So why do loudspeakers apparently "break in" and stop changing? And if it takes, say, 100 hours to "break in," what happens at 200? At 1000?
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Post by frenchyfranky on Mar 27, 2013 19:22:30 GMT -5
As a skilled tradesman with more than a few years experience most moving parts degrade/wear in a predictable fashion barring contamination or impact damage. Vibration/fluid analysis provides a highly predictable wear pattern and things loosen up with age and use. Simple physics at it's finest. And then they wear out, yes? So why do loudspeakers apparently "break in" and stop changing? And if it takes, say, 100 hours to "break in," what happens at 200? At 1000? I don't know, my hearing finest limit is reached I think that I can't rely on your ears also ... ;D
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Post by 1960broookwood on Mar 27, 2013 19:28:59 GMT -5
As a skilled tradesman with more than a few years experience most moving parts degrade/wear in a predictable fashion barring contamination or impact damage. Vibration/fluid analysis provides a highly predictable wear pattern and things loosen up with age and use. Simple physics at it's finest. And then they wear out, yes? So why do loudspeakers apparently "break in" and stop changing? And if it takes, say, 100 hours to "break in," what happens at 200? At 1000? For the same reason a new pair of shoes only stretch so far--to meet demand? Based on experience industry has developed ways to reduce critical failures and minimize downtime based on testing and past historical data-- must be the consumer electronics field has not gone that far down the path.
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Post by frenchyfranky on Mar 28, 2013 0:13:29 GMT -5
I do not like the controversy, but in this hobby it is inevitable. Well, that's debatable! ;D ;D You're alone and suffer of solitude ;D
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Post by Gary Cook on Mar 28, 2013 1:50:04 GMT -5
The old "speaker" run in debate, it never stops. A couple of decades ago I had a hifi salesman tell me to run in my new speakers at around half volume for 100 hours. A common number it would seem, that strangely enough doesn't vary much, already suspicious aren’t we? I followed his instructions, warranty scare tactics at work. Then I thought I would test out his theory by taking them back and comparing them in his listening room with a brand new pair we took out of their unopened boxes. Neither he nor I, or another salesman, or a customer who walked in at an opportune time could reliably pick the difference. His excuse……………wait for it…………..was the speakers came from the UK in a container on a ship and the bouncing up and own must have “run” the drivers in. So next time you have a speaker salesman pull that stunt on you, tell him not to worry you will taking them home in your car and the rough road bouncing will run them in on the way.
Cheers Gary
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2013 10:02:34 GMT -5
Dyohn hit the nail on the head, how come the result of break-in is *always* positive? Same thing with the various and sundry audiofool tweaks. Almost without exception, they result in a perceived *improvement*. At worst, no benefit is detected. NEVER have I heard of someone reporting a negative outcome. This defies simple common sense.
Remember, the most important part of the word "audiofool" is fool...
-RW-
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Post by wpbpete on Mar 28, 2013 10:07:41 GMT -5
As someone who's worked for a few manufacturers of dynamic loudspeaker drivers, I can tell you there is really no valid reason for loudspeaker "break in." Drivers are "broken in" before the leave the factory. But people will do what they want, and it certainly won't harm anything. For those who believe this procedure is necessary, answer me this: which of the T/S parameters will change with break in, what is the constant magnitude of this change, and how will that effect system design? I recently purchased a new sub and lcr, I tuned and set them and after 2 weeks or so the sub came to life and I had to re-tune. I believe that's a result of the subs break-in period. I haven't noticed any enhancement with the lcr as of yet.
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Post by The Mad Norseman on Mar 28, 2013 12:45:57 GMT -5
As a skilled tradesman with more than a few years experience most moving parts degrade/wear in a predictable fashion barring contamination or impact damage. Vibration/fluid analysis provides a highly predictable wear pattern and things loosen up with age and use. Simple physics at it's finest. The 'bell-curve' of new - to comfortable (the widest part of the graph) - to worn out and then dead,... 'the circle of (speaker) life' so to speak! A break in period for things with moving parts (like speakers) does make a certain amount of sense (unlike amplifier break-in) I think. Maybe its not possible to always tell though? And every speaker would be different in this regard too I'd suppose, given different materials, sizes, construction, etc. Some would show/measure better improvements with break in than others. Or take longer, or shorter periods to show improvement. Or conversely, deteriorate faster. Yup. Makes a decent amount of sense to me too...
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