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Post by garbulky on May 7, 2013 14:27:17 GMT -5
If anybody wants to debate class D why not start a separate thread?
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Post by 1960broookwood on May 7, 2013 16:18:33 GMT -5
When someone says they like the sound of tubes over SS they are really saying (even if they do not know it) that the distortion is pleasing to them. When comparing 2 drivers that will go into a speaker people often pick the one with more distortion as sounding "better" because the distortion makes it sound louder and thus more pleasing. When listening to tweeters many people prefer the one that rolls off at the high end over the one that is flat to 20 kHz. It is not surprising to me that some people would prefer a PWM amp sound despite its flaws in audio reproduction that would drive many audiophiles nuts. This is the same world where Bose owns most of the sales and most of the rest are sound bars run by, you guessed it, class D chip amps. I believe if you look through the "show your gear" threads it's the guys with the most experience and free cash are using tube gear--bashing them based on your opinion seems childish--and yes I am one of those guys. You think Big Dan went into business with Bob Carver to provide a "mid-fi" product?  |
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Post by rtg97229 on May 7, 2013 16:41:09 GMT -5
When someone says they like the sound of tubes over SS they are really saying (even if they do not know it) that the distortion is pleasing to them. When comparing 2 drivers that will go into a speaker people often pick the one with more distortion as sounding "better" because the distortion makes it sound louder and thus more pleasing. When listening to tweeters many people prefer the one that rolls off at the high end over the one that is flat to 20 kHz. It is not surprising to me that some people would prefer a PWM amp sound despite its flaws in audio reproduction that would drive many audiophiles nuts. This is the same world where Bose owns most of the sales and most of the rest are sound bars run by, you guessed it, class D chip amps. I believe if you look through the "show your gear" threads it's the guys with the most experience and free cash using tube gear--bashing them based on your opinion seems childish--and yes I am one of those guys. You think Big Dan went into business with Bob Carver to provide a "mid-fi" product? I was not bashing tubes, I was stating a fact. The tube distortion is pleasing to some people. If you like it, good for you. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on May 7, 2013 17:24:53 GMT -5
Let's all get along here. As for tubes..... Wine is just spoiled grape juice, yet some people really enjoy the way it tastes, and many spend a lot of money to get a particular variety of spoiled grape juice. It doesn't detract from that enjoyment to state the fact that it is indeed spoiled grape juice. HOWEVER, it may offend a few connoisseurs to use that particular description. In the case of tubes, the distinctive sound of tubes IS due to higher levels of certain specific types of distortion, a distinctive overall spectrum and "fingerprint" of distortion, and, in the case of power amps, interactions between the higher output impedance of tube amps and speakers. There are certain tube lovers, and a few makers of tube gear, who insist on trying to convince people that there is some *other* "magical" ingredient involved. They would have us believe that the reason why you should like the sound of tube equipment is NOT because of its characteristic distortion, but is instead because of some mystical other virtue that is present (and audible) IN ADDITION TO the characteristic distortion - even though such a magical ingredient has never been identified. The science of wine tells us that different wines taste different because they have different chemical compositions (due to the ingredients in the original grape juice and the details of how it became spoiled). The science of audio technology tells us that tube amplifiers sound different because they have different amounts (usually more) of different types of distortion, and different impedances and other electrical characteristics. Someone who wants distilled water won't like wine; and someone who wants the lowest possible distortion won't like tube equipment; and this in no way takes away from the enjoyment of either by those who DO enjoy it. Back on the original topic: there are indeed serious design hurdles to be overcome in getting a Class D amp to sound good. The fact remains, however, that at least a few current designs do indeed sound very good. [Honestly, to most people, the "characteristic types of distortion" typically produced by Class D designs sound pretty nasty, so I suspect that most of the good sounding designs have very low distortion - in which case you don't hear it.] When someone says they like the sound of tubes over SS they are really saying (even if they do not know it) that the distortion is pleasing to them. When comparing 2 drivers that will go into a speaker people often pick the one with more distortion as sounding "better" because the distortion makes it sound louder and thus more pleasing. When listening to tweeters many people prefer the one that rolls off at the high end over the one that is flat to 20 kHz. It is not surprising to me that some people would prefer a PWM amp sound despite its flaws in audio reproduction that would drive many audiophiles nuts. This is the same world where Bose owns most of the sales and most of the rest are sound bars run by, you guessed it, class D chip amps. I believe if you look through the "show your gear" threads it's the guys with the most experience and free cash using tube gear--bashing them based on your opinion seems childish--and yes I am one of those guys. You think Big Dan went into business with Bob Carver to provide a "mid-fi" product? |
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Post by supermac on May 7, 2013 18:13:14 GMT -5
Wine but also cheese and pickles. My son is in an undergrad philosophy class and came home and asked me what is art? We went round and round but couldn't definitively come to a conclusion. Old school, in this case tubes, as well as anything else, has a certain appeal like how one would appreciate Renaissance Art over Contemporary Art. Also, I've seen some fantastic graffiti and learned to appreciate it after getting to know the designer, their technique and their intended message to the viewer. Discussions about tubes is interesting to me. I try to ignore opinions about other opinions and try to learn from the compare and contrast elements. I know more than I should about a lot of things because of the compare and contrast model. I'm learning here too. So even with the opinion volleys, I thank you all... I think I learned a bit.
An aspect that I find interesting is that while ss has been around for over a half a century, there is still a demand for tubes, albeit small. Advantages and disadvantages of both tubes and ss pretty much is the same, - but technology advancements has improved both.
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Post by 1960broookwood on May 7, 2013 18:48:49 GMT -5
An aspect that I find interesting is that while ss has been around for over a half a century, there is still a demand for tubes, albeit small. Advantages and disadvantages of both tubes and ss pretty much is the same, - but technology advancements has improved both. Do a little research about what the legends use to make the music. DicKK Dale--Dusty Gibbons--Pete Townshend-- John Entwistle--Joe Satriani--Joe Perry-- Eddie Van Halen--Chet Atkins--Mark Knopfler--Joe Walsh--Peter Frampton--and the list goes on and on---use or used tube amps BB King is the sole exception using a Lab Series L5--which has achieved a legendary status. Don't know much about the metal era or hair bands though |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 7, 2013 18:51:26 GMT -5
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Post by AudioHTIT on May 7, 2013 20:15:49 GMT -5
An aspect that I find interesting is that while ss has been around for over a half a century, there is still a demand for tubes, albeit small. Advantages and disadvantages of both tubes and ss pretty much is the same, - but technology advancements has improved both. Do a little research about what the legends use to make the music. DicKK Dale--Dusty Gibbons--Pete Townshend-- John Entwistle--Joe Satriani--Joe Perry-- Eddie Van Halen--Chet Atkins--Mark Knopfler--Joe Walsh--Peter Frampton--and the list goes on and on---use or used tube amps BB King is the sole exception using a Lab Series L5--which has achieved a legendary status. Don't know much about the metal era or hair bands though Though I'm a tube fan I think musical instruments amps fall into a different discussion. Whether SS or tube they are part of the instrument and are chosen because of the sound they 'create', not the sound they 'reproduce'. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 7, 2013 20:24:55 GMT -5
Right on AudioHTIT, and that goes for 'PRO' electronics as well!
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Post by ocezam on May 8, 2013 11:54:42 GMT -5
Right on AudioHTIT, and that goes for 'PRO' electronics as well! This thread is about Red Dragon Audio. Hardly "pro" audio. ... |
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Post by ocezam on May 8, 2013 11:57:20 GMT -5
The fact remains, however, that at least a few current designs do indeed sound very good. Honestly, to most people, the "characteristic types of distortion" typically produced by Class D designs sound pretty nasty, so I suspect that most of the good sounding designs have very low distortion - in which case you don't hear it.... |
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Post by GreenKiwi on May 8, 2013 13:23:40 GMT -5
Right on AudioHTIT, and that goes for 'PRO' electronics as well! This thread is about Red Dragon Audio. Hardly "pro" audio. ... someone likes spewing their opinions around. Hopefully this thread can return to RDA. |
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on May 8, 2013 13:40:25 GMT -5
- This forum is EMOTIVA HOUSE...
By the way, thanks to EMOTIVA MASTERPIECE OF ENGINEERING in AUDIO, the XPA-1.
VERY; VERY; TOO GOOD!!!
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Post by mgbpuff on May 8, 2013 13:40:38 GMT -5
No thread stays on message, if they did, it would get very boring. Red Dragon is not pro audio! I never said it was. It's Class D (ICE modules, so not very original design) put in a box, gussied up, and sold for a pretty good price. Class D is like letting a bull charge at your sister and depending on the good ole filter cowboy to lasso it before it reaches her.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 13:43:08 GMT -5
No thread stays on message, if they did, it would get very boring. Red Dragon is not pro audio! I never said it was. It's Class D (ICE modules, so not very original design) put in a box, gussied up, and sold for a pretty good price. Class D is like letting a bull charge at your sister and depending on the good ole filter cowboy to lasso it before it reaches her. I know a few things about class d, currently building some and have built numerous ones in the past. You need to just not post here anymore. Nothing you are saying is positive or proactive for the OP's message. The OP is a great guy and he is probably fed up with this. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 8, 2013 13:57:42 GMT -5
As long as you've got a good lasso, the maiden doesn't get gored. By the way I haven't personally besmirched anyone in any of my posts!
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2013 14:00:05 GMT -5
As long as you've got a good lasso, the maiden doesn't get gored. By the way I haven't personally besmirched anyone in any of my posts! Have fun! |
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Post by jerrin on May 8, 2013 15:28:28 GMT -5
No thread stays on message, if they did, it would get very boring. Red Dragon is not pro audio! I never said it was. It's Class D (ICE modules, so not very original design) put in a box, gussied up, and sold for a pretty good price. Class D is like letting a bull charge at your sister and depending on the good ole filter cowboy to lasso it before it reaches her. I know a few things about class d, currently building some and have built numerous ones in the past. You need to just not post here anymore. Nothing you are saying is positive or proactive for the OP's message. The OP is a great guy and he is probably fed up with this. We all need to relax a bit. I don't see where Mgbpuff is insulting or making fun of anyone. Moreover, "Nothing you are saying is positive or proactive for the OP's message" is not a requirement of these boards. If it were, I and several others would never be allowed to post. ;D I think several posters just need to take a step back and breathe. I may somewhat disagree with Mgbpuff, but he is free to share his opinions, as we all are. I would however, suggest that Mgbpuff examine his posts a little more closely for "tone" so that we can better avoid future misunderstandings. |
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Post by mgbpuff on May 8, 2013 15:51:44 GMT -5
I apologize for using the politically incorrect word 'crap' to describe crap. I will strive to find more acceptable synonyms in the future.
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Post by rtg97229 on May 8, 2013 16:05:11 GMT -5
No thread stays on message, if they did, it would get very boring. Red Dragon is not pro audio! I never said it was. It's Class D (ICE modules, so not very original design) put in a box, gussied up, and sold for a pretty good price. Class D is like letting a bull charge at your sister and depending on the good ole filter cowboy to lasso it before it reaches her. That is a really good analogy actually. I will say the cowboy is getting much better than years ago but they still do not pass my standards. For me if I can see the PWM on my Tek scope, the amp goes back. If someone else in not bothered by it, I have no issue with that. We all have our own standards. |
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