|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 1, 2013 20:19:26 GMT -5
...So maybe its time to sell 'em (even at a bit of a loss) and start over, because what you're doing may be very educational, and very interesting - but is not really practical, (ex. laying them on their sides?, toilet paper over the tweeters? adding attenuators?). Nope. Time to put your foot down big guy!... Hi madnorseman - Sounds like wisdom to me, but before I do that I want to substitute some speakers (maybe even BORROW some) to see if I can do better in that room. If ALL the speakers I try there fail to image, then the problem is the room, not the speakers, and more adjustment is needed there. If 2 out of 3 other speakers do better than the DefTechs in the same room, then you're right. Time to take the loss and walk away. Now the tough question: Of the following speakers that I already own, which should be the best imagers? Klipsch Cornwall III Klipsch Heresy I Definitive Technology SM65 Dayton Audio B652 Obviously, the first two are horn-loaded 3-ways, the last two are 2-way conventional dynamics. Boomzilla |
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on May 1, 2013 20:51:36 GMT -5
Before you do any of that, you may want to make sure it's not anything in your source causing sibilance. Some speakers may mask it and the definitive tech may have just revealed it. Do the tube amps cause any kind of sibilance vs your xpa-2? What about a source other than the dragonfly?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 1, 2013 23:13:05 GMT -5
>>
Klipsch Cornwall III
Klipsch Heresy I
Definitive Technology SM65
Dayton Audio B652
<<
None of these are imaging champs. Get some KEFs, Rogers, or Spendors if you want to experience real imaging...
-RW-
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 0:45:27 GMT -5
...Get some KEFs, Rogers, or Spendors if you want to experience real imaging... Thanks, RW - In fact, I've a friend with some KEFs in a closet. I'll borrow them. Boomzilla |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 1:42:27 GMT -5
Before you do any of that, you may want to make sure it's not anything in your source causing sibilance... Thanks, but after four different amplifiers in the system, I'm relatively sure that the electronics aren't the problem. If the next speaker pair also sounds sibilant, I'll review that statement. Thanks for reminding me of it! |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 4:59:50 GMT -5
OK - Pondering other options on speakers. Candidates:
1. Magnepan 3.6 (I may not have enough room to back wall for these)
2. KEF Q300
3. Emotiva Airmotiv 6
4. PSB Synchrony One
Of this quartet, which should image best?
|
|
hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
|
Post by hemster on May 2, 2013 5:10:43 GMT -5
OK - Pondering other options on speakers. Candidates: 1. Magnepan 3.6 (I may not have enough room to back wall for these) 2. KEF Q300 3. Emotiva Airmotiv 6 4. PSB Synchrony One Of this quartet, which should image best? The Maggies will likely image the best but they take careful placement. You definitely will need to move them out and away from the wall quite a bit. As for the rest, the Airmotive6s are active speakers with 100W+110W biamped configuration. You may not need a sub with these and they can be placed very near the wall. They are rear-ported but come with a shelving adjustment, should you need to tweak a bit. But I digress... To answer your question, IMHO I'd place them in the following order for imaging: 1. Magnepan 3.6 (but you need room behind them!) 2. Emotiva Airmotiv 6 3. KEF Q300 4. PSB Synchrony One Of course, that's just my opinion. YMMV..  |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 5:16:26 GMT -5
Thanks, Hemster -
That's about what I thought. Since my maximum speaker-to-rear-wall distance is about 18 inches, I'm thinking that the Maggies are out. Since the PSB is about five times the cost of the other options, it falls out of the running too.
I'll borrow some older KEFs from my neighbor and see if they image in the room. If yes, I'll conclude that the room isn't the problem and visit the above speakers again. If not, then it's time to contact ATS and ask their opinion on the number and location of panels in the room.
If neighbor isn't available today, I'll get my grunt on and move the Klipsch Cornwalls back into the room. They won't image like a KEF or an Airmotiv, but they should answer the room question adequately.
Thanks again for the (very informed) opinion - Boomzilla
|
|
reaper60
Sensei
Music Makes Me Happy!
Posts: 505
|
Post by reaper60 on May 2, 2013 9:48:34 GMT -5
Too bad you are sooo damn far away boom. I have a pair of B&W Matrix 3's that are the king of imaging in my system and I'd love to let you borrow them, but something tells me shipping @ 80 lbs. per would be pretty silly. Especially since I bought em for little more than $500.  An option for you,... why not go to your local audio store,... schmooze with an employee about a set of dreamy speakers that image well,... and ask to audition them in your home given your recent room issues. Then after a week return them regardless of result and tell them that you need to pan out the issues in the room before making expensive decisions on speakers. |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 10:29:10 GMT -5
Hi Reaper60 -
First, let me call out your benevolence in being willing to loan your speakers - greater love hath no man! I agree that shipping makes the offer infeasible.
I could schmooze the local audio saloon out of some speakers for the weekend, and they'd be happy to do it. They know me, they trust me not to damage the goods, and they know that although the likelihood of a sale is low, if I fall in love they've made their commission!
Having said that, I'm reluctant to spend "customer capital" with the local saloon unless there's a HIGH probability that I'll buy their merchandise. Before I drag home another pair of speakers, I'd need to get at least two or three of my existing pairs sold. This has nothing to do with the local store - only with storage limitations. If I'd just sold my two "biggest ticket" pairs of speakers, then yes, I'd be legitimately in the market and I absolutely WOULD try some loaners.
Until then, however, I'm reluctant to impose on the local store. They're very nice to me - I try to be equally nice to them.
Cheers - Boomzilla
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 10:46:01 GMT -5
And now, from the wild & crazy guy that brought you wastebasket speaker stands, horizontal speaker placements, and toilet paper tweeter attenuators, the latest lunacy: Floor-standing speakers on risers!  Why would one do that, you ask? Because at the 800 Hz crossover point from that 15" woofer to the midrange horn, the wavelength is only 1.4 feet - VERY close to the 15" radiating diameter of the woofer. This means what? That the 800 Hz frequency from the woofer cone does not disperse much at all. In other words, your ears must be essentially ON AXIS of the woofer to get correct output at the crossover point. Because the woofer was SIGNIFICANTLY below ear level, I came up with this as a way to try and improve the (previously glaring) discontinuity between the woofer and the midrange horn at the crossover. Does it work? Is a bear Catholic? Does the Pope s*** in the woods? Report to come. |
|
|
|
Post by Chuck Elliot on May 2, 2013 10:51:13 GMT -5
Come on give a clue. Is it better?
|
|
|
|
Post by garbulky on May 2, 2013 12:18:00 GMT -5
Hehe, well it's not as bad as the trash cans!
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 12:34:15 GMT -5
The trash cans were too tall for the Cornwalls.
|
|
|
|
Post by monkumonku on May 2, 2013 12:42:44 GMT -5
The trash cans were too tall for the Cornwalls. Not if you turn them upside-down. ;D (just kidding...  ) |
|
|
|
Post by flamingeye on May 2, 2013 12:46:13 GMT -5
I had a pair of kenwood's , can't remember the model but they sounded better upside down on a 2 foot stand
|
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 12:47:43 GMT -5
Well, the Heresys like the trash cans, but the Cornwalls seem to find them insulting. The Cornwalls just sing in falsetto if they even see the cans in the room. Happy speakers are passionate speakers. Don't even THINK of threatening the Cornwalls with a subwoofer! |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on May 2, 2013 12:49:26 GMT -5
I had a pair of kenwood's , can't remember the model but they sounded better upside down on a 2 foot stand I think I had some too, but I never thought of turning them upside down - I just stood on my head while listening. Maybe that explains where I'm getting some of my ideas lately...  |
|
|
|
Post by The Mad Norseman on May 2, 2013 18:04:23 GMT -5
And now, from the wild & crazy guy that brought you wastebasket speaker stands, horizontal speaker placements, and toilet paper tweeter attenuators, the latest lunacy: Floor-standing speakers on risers! Why would one do that, you ask? Because at the 800 Hz crossover point from that 15" woofer to the midrange horn, the wavelength is only 1.4 feet - VERY close to the 15" radiating diameter of the woofer. This means what? That the 800 Hz frequency from the woofer cone does not disperse much at all. In other words, your ears must be essentially ON AXIS of the woofer to get correct output at the crossover point. Because the woofer was SIGNIFICANTLY below ear level, I came up with this as a way to try and improve the (previously glaring) discontinuity between the woofer and the midrange horn at the crossover. Does it work? Is a bear Catholic? Does the Pope s*** in the woods? Report to come. Hey - I'm not laughing! Sometimes a floorstander (or a larger bookshelf type in this case) really does need to be on a stand to get the best out of it! |
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Jul 19, 2013 20:02:24 GMT -5
DefTech SM65 Review Update - By Boomzilla the Bozo...
Garbulky solved the riddle of the DefTech SM65s. When I visited GB, his speakers were spaced WIDELY compared to mine. On a hunch, I spaced the DefTechs a bit wider in my room. WAHLA! Image! The speakers are still very slightly to hot in the treble to listen to on axis, but with a mild toe-in, they disappear sonically and leave only the music. As they continue to break in, the bass is becoming smoother. The DefTechs now consistently outperform the Klipsch Cornwalls (that cost 4x the price of the SM65s).
I'm currently running the speakers with my XPA-2 power amp, but plan to try a variety of other amplification this weekend including a Crown PS-400, an Emotiva Mini-X, and a NAD 3020e integrated amp (20 wpc). Garbulky's coming to assist in the amp shoot-out.
With no electronic room correction and no equalization, the DefTechs are sounding as good as many a speaker that I've matched to a subwoofer in my room. The bass of the SM65s, in particular, is full, deep, and tight. The speakers seem immune to wire differences, and I can't tell any difference between the three or four pairs of cables that I've tried with them. Cabling has included original Monster Cable, Kimber 12TC, Home-made 10 ga., Kimber 4TC, and some bi-wire jobs.
The initial inability of the speakers to image in my room was NOT caused by the speakers, but rather my DAC. At the time I wrote the initial review, I was running an AudioQuest Dragonfly. All my listening was done with the 'fly plugged into my Macbook with its dead battery. Running the Macbook from the charger must have resulted in either insufficient voltage or insufficiently clean voltage for the 'fly to do its best. Once I changed out the DAC (initially to an Airport Express, then to a XDA-1, and finally to a Jolida FX tube DAC), the sound improved at every step. Once the 'fly was gone from the system, the SM65s began to perform as I'd hoped they would.
Initially, with the speakers no more than about eight or nine feet apart, I had to toe the speakers slightly outward from perpendicular to the back wall to avoid the treble nasties. With the speakers closer to 10 to 12 feet apart, however, the sound is better balanced (more room sound, less direct?) regardless of toe-in.
I'm eager to hear the SM65s with the Dirac correction of the upcoming XMC-1. I'll update the thread again at that time. Until then, I plan to keep the SM65s. They're the best speakers I've got for now and only if / when other better ones land will I consider letting these go.
Boomzilla
|
|
)
