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Post by cyberathlete on Dec 16, 2013 15:06:14 GMT -5
Last night it occurred to me why I'm having so much difficulty in making these speakers sound the way they did in the showroom (where the audition convinced me to buy them in the first place).
The store demonstrated the speakers using an AVR. They probably had used their room EQ on the receiver (Audissey most likely) to tune the speakers to their room. Since I have no room EQ, all these problems are popping up.
As to the toilet paper, it is a decades-old remedy for curing excessive tweeter brightness and it works as advertised.
So my options now are to tolerate the sibilance (only sometimes bothersome), buy an AVR that can equalize the speakers to the room, or to replace the speakers.
Thanks for your detailed review. I am planning on getting 3x SM65 (front, center channel and right) and 4x SM55 for Surrounds. I also intend to lay the SM65's horizontally. My question is that are the bass radiators facing each other -> <- when you lay the speakers horizontally or are they facing outwards <- ->. Thanks! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 16, 2013 15:28:18 GMT -5
Well, allow me to update the review:
It took a MONTH, but the brightness/sibilance went away. In retrospect, part of the whole issue was probably never the speakers at all but the DAC I was using at the time. My source was a Macbook with a dead battery, operated solely from its AC adapter. And when I say the battery was dead, I mean it was DEAD! I suspect that the power supply to the Macbook was insufficiently buffered by the lack of a functional battery. This may (or may not) have adversely affected the performance of the USB Audioquest Dragonfly that I was using as DAC. Once the Macbook & DAC got out of the system, the DefTechs began sounding better, and Better, and BETTER.
The 65s took another jump in performance when I hooked them up to my XPA-2 amplifier and a Jolida Glass FX tube DAC. They reached their pinnacle when I substituted a pair of Crown PS-400 amplifiers in a vertical bi-amplification configuration using long interconnects and short speaker wires.
Somewhere in the middle of all this, I put up some ATS sound absorber panels in my listening room that took the system to another level.
SO... Once the room was fixed, the source was fixed, and the DAC was fixed, how do the SM65s sound? STUNNING! For such tiny speakers they have very, very extended bass. That passive radiator on top does its job. They don't extend down into the 30s at all, but they're a solid 40 Hz and you know it. Their sound strongly suggests that they have lower bass than they actually do. Unless you're a car audio fan or a Bach organ fanatic, you'll never miss what's missing. Of course, if you're going to use a subwoofer, this is academic.
The treble is NOT bright or sibilant in any way. That was either an artifact of my room or of my source/DAC. The speakers work well very widely spaced. Feel free to move them to the outside and beyond of the traditional "equilateral triangle" spacing. They throw a wide, deep image that is particularly convincing on large scale music such as orchestra and/or power rock.
The biggest virtue of the 65s is that they sound coherent, top to bottom. You can't hear where the woofers leave off and the tweeter kicks in. Everything "just sounds right."
Despite how great these little speakers are, they aren't the ones for me. Why? Because I seriously want that deep bass at least down to 30 Hz. and I want it without a subwoofer. The larger DefTechs come in two flavors - The BP series that radiates front & rear. I don't like the imaging on these and due to the right-to-left asymmetry of my room rear radiators don't do too well. The other flavor is the Mythos series with the self-powered subwoofers. These might be great - I wouldn't know. Every one I've ever heard was in a showroom being driven by a POS AV receiver. They've sounded flat, without dynamics, and excessively bright in showroom conditions. Based on what I've heard of DefTech's other lines, I've got to suspect that the Mythos series is better than what I've heard, but unless I can hear them do better first, they're not on my shopping list.
Therefore, I reluctantly posted an ad in the Emporium this afternoon to let my SM65s go. My loss = someone else's gain. These are GREAT speakers for their size.
To answer your question specifically, cyberathlete, I tried my 65s with radiator in and with radiator out. To my ears, no difference. Your room may be different, so try them both ways. You also may want to try bi-wiring the 65s. They're one of the very, very few speakers that I've owned that allow me to (sometimes) hear a difference in wires.
Cheers & Merry Christmas!
Boomzilla
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Post by cyberathlete on Dec 17, 2013 16:28:32 GMT -5
Thanks for the respoonse Boomzilla!
I would like to bi-wire them but currently will be plugging them directly into my Onkyo TX-NR809 receiver. And bi-wiring would mean sacrificing a 7.2 surround set up and settling for 5.2. These will be used with 2 subs. 2x Klipsch Reference RW-12D.
I am planning on pulling the trigger by end of January. These will replace my Cerwin Vega set:
2x V-12F (3-way Floor Standing with 12" subs)
2x V-6F (2-way Floor standing speakers)
4x V-5M (Bookshelf speakers)
1x V-5C (Center Channel)
Not sure how they can compare with full towers but let's see.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 17, 2013 22:17:10 GMT -5
Well, a set of "bi-wires" would allow you to do it with no sacrifice at all.
They have one pair of connectors at the amp (receiver) end and two at the speaker end. Done!
In fact, it's Christmas. I've got a set already made up 10 feet long per side. I'll give them to you and I'll pay the shipping!
PM me and they're yours.
Now I can feel virtuous for having done a good deed!
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lm2
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 4 
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Post by lm2 on Sept 5, 2015 13:58:25 GMT -5
OK, I know the last post is from 2013, but it sure is a fine read. Thanks Boomzilla!
I am sure that the sources were a factor, as you mention, and even more important:
This is a great story of how unwanted "brightness" can be tamed with changes to the room's reflective surfaces. These SM65's were probably beaming into the wall behind the listener, and then bouncing back to the wall behind them (the speakers), and repeating. This happens so quickly that you may not be aware that you are, in effect, hearing the same sound ping - ponging: it often comes across as "harsh" or "spiky" treble. In a concert hall of any size, there are people (great sound absorbers), much wider boudaries, curtains and other treatments, and of course some liveliness to the room is fine. In a smaller listening space, all is exaggerated. Reducing treble output (via TP, or any other method) would result (as BZ noted) in serious imaging issues.
A better answer is to tame the room a bit, as he did so effectively, with wall treatments. You can get pretty crazy with this in terms of expensive (but very effective) foam panels; and yet, I have been in a great sounding studio that used egg cartons (yes, you read that right, the 12 egg type fully opened) on two walls . Another really nice (often with an extremely high WAF) way to substantially lower reflected sound is hanging attractive blankets or carpets as. A great place to start is behind your speakers: this allows the initial reflection off the wall behind the listener, but can act to diminish the fast repeated waves that cause a lot of systems to sound over-bright.
I hope that helps!
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 5, 2015 14:32:28 GMT -5
Hi lm2 - Yes, it was very helpful. And a quick way to assess the room's reflectivity is the "clap test." Walk around the room & clap your hands. Hear any echoes? You need some absorbers. For treble, rugs, tapestries, and even curtains can help, but for midrange & bass, you need foam & diffusers. The $500 I spent on room treatments made more difference than spending thousands on speakers or electronics. And I stand by my claim that the first few absorbers make the biggest difference. After my initial $500, I decided that "if some are good, more must be better." Not so. I ended up taking almost ALL of the second round's worth down again because I couldn't hear any difference. Now my good buds garbulky and novisnick have some excellent absorbers too, buying my leftovers. So room treatment doesn't have to be expensive (there are some awesome DIY threads here on the Lounge). But it does make WORLDS of difference. Boom |
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lm2
Seeker Of Truth
Posts: 4
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Post by lm2 on Sept 5, 2015 14:55:21 GMT -5
Well said! We should probably also note that carpeting on the floor helps.
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Post by garbulky on Sept 5, 2015 17:16:13 GMT -5
Yes room treatments and carpet help
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Post by charlieeco on Jun 18, 2017 12:02:39 GMT -5
Hi boom, reading you useful review on the def techs SM65 (thanks for that) I could read the following: "SUMMARY:
These are not perfect speakers. The discontinuity between the two woofers and the single tweeter is one major defect." Did you have the chance to compare or to audition the SM55, do you think It´s better choice due to a single driver + tweeter than the mix of two drivers?. I read on some other review of them the SM55 was a better choice? what do you think?, and what happenned in the end with those speakers do you still keep them?. I also read they perform fantastic horizontally what are your final thoughts on that?
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Post by garbulky on Jun 18, 2017 12:21:44 GMT -5
Hi boom, reading you useful review on the def techs SM65 (thanks for that) I could read the following: "SUMMARY: These are not perfect speakers. The discontinuity between the two woofers and the single tweeter is one major defect." Did you have the chance to compare or to audition the SM55, do you think It´s better choice due to a single driver + tweeter than the mix of two drivers?. I read on some other review of them the SM55 was a better choice? what do you think?, and what happenned in the end with those speakers do you still keep them?. I also read they perform fantastic horizontally what are your final thoughts on that? Though those speakers are not bad performers, I think that there are other speakers that would provide better value and sound. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time spent with them and they did produce music! However, Axioms m5hp bookshelf would be a noticeable upgrade. At a similar price. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 18, 2017 13:14:10 GMT -5
Hmmm... Speculation, garbulky? Have you heard the Axiom bookshelves, or are you speculating downward from the sound of your own Axiom M-80s? I wouldn't say that the Axioms were inferior to the DefTechs, but I wouldn't claim automatic superiority, either. In short, you may be right, but I don't know. I would say that both the Axiom center channel speakers and the M-100s were most excellent-sounding. But they did need subs.     |
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Post by gus4emo on Jun 18, 2017 14:06:32 GMT -5
How about putting the toilet paper in your ears?  Lol, and check the toilet tissue from time to time, lol.... |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 18, 2017 14:08:41 GMT -5
Hmmm... Speculation, garbulky? Have you heard the Axiom bookshelves, or are you speculating downward from the sound of your own Axiom M-80s? I wouldn't say that the Axioms were inferior to the DefTechs, but I wouldn't claim automatic superiority, either. In short, you may be right, but I don't know. I would say that both the Axiom center channel speakers and the M-100s were most excellent-sounding. But they did need subs. Speculation based on my familiarity with the speakers. In this case, having lived with axiom speakers since somewhere around 2010, I know I'm right. The axiom drivers are superior into tonality and definition and resolution to the speakers. You were using axiom smaller center channel speaker which is an inappropriate match to your large room. My recommendation for the bookshelf speakers should be in smaller Livingrooms. Also nobody should be expecting full rang sound from bookshelf speakers. want for Full range sound, get dual subwoofers |
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Post by adaboy on Jun 18, 2017 23:02:34 GMT -5
Well, I accidentally started reading from the beginning and liked a post over 4 years old lol. Then I was like why is Boom writing a review about these speakers and saying that they are the best he has had? Man too much Father's day drinking. Wow
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Post by Axis on Jun 18, 2017 23:15:34 GMT -5
Well, I accidentally started reading from the beginning and liked a post over 4 years old lol. Then I was like why is Boom writing a review about these speakers and saying that they are the best he has had? Man too much Father's day drinking. Wow Your allowed to drink on Father's Day.  It is good to be king today ! |
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Post by adaboy on Jun 18, 2017 23:53:32 GMT -5
Well, I accidentally started reading from the beginning and liked a post over 4 years old lol. Then I was like why is Boom writing a review about these speakers and saying that they are the best he has had? Man too much Father's day drinking. Wow Your allowed to drink on Father's Day. It is good to be king today ! History of the world part 1....great movie, Mel Brooks at his finest! It's good to be the King! |
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It is good to be king today ! 