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Post by mpow3r on Sept 10, 2013 16:28:07 GMT -5
Looking for some general thoughts on bi-wiring. There seems to be a lot of people saying bi-wiring is a complete hoax and that amplifier/speaker companies add bi-wiring features just to appease the crowd.
I have a pair of XPA-1's paired with some B&W 803D's via Emotiva E-connect speaker cable, currently not bi-wired but thinking of adding another set of cables.
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Post by deltadube on Sept 10, 2013 16:34:03 GMT -5
Looking for some general thoughts on bi-wiring. There seems to be a lot of people saying bi-wiring is a complete hoax and that amplifier/speaker companies add bi-wiring features just to appease the crowd. I have a pair of XPA-1's paired with some B&W 803D's via Emotiva E-connect speaker cable, currently not bi-wired but thinking of adding another set of cables. you will not hear a sonic benefit... i have the xpa 1 as well and bi wired them only because i couldnt terminate my cables 13 inches wide and look good.. so i use regular size termination twice hence bi wired and looking good .. cause i can see the back of on amp.. i notice no difference in SQ cheers.. |
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Post by PGT on Sept 10, 2013 16:35:20 GMT -5
I think as long as your speaker cable has a mix of stranded and solid core, biwiring is akin to just using a heavier gauge wire. Replacing the brass straps with jumpers yields nearly as much benefit.
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Post by mpow3r on Sept 10, 2013 16:54:51 GMT -5
I think as long as your speaker cable has a mix of stranded and solid core, biwiring is akin to just using a heavier gauge wire. Replacing the brass straps with jumpers yields nearly as much benefit. yeah, that was something I noticed with my 803D's, no brass strap, they came with jumpers unlike any of my previously owned B&W's. |
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Post by PGT on Sept 10, 2013 16:57:43 GMT -5
That should tell you something, eh? LOL. We used to sell Transparent Cable jumpers...I think they were like $99/pr and had silver solder. Great upgrade for speakers over $5k that came with brass straps. That said, Monster MCX-2 or MCX-4 did just as well for $3/ft (and you only needed one foot to make them).
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 10, 2013 17:00:11 GMT -5
Bi-wire = BUY-wire.
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Post by PGT on Sept 10, 2013 17:06:55 GMT -5
Yes. I said that same thing to someone at Area 51 at EmoFest and I just got an odd look in response.
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on Sept 10, 2013 17:44:19 GMT -5
I have BI-WIRE my speakers with 2 X 6 gauge cable and for me is a improvement in response of BASS, more BODY and LOUDER.
B&W recommends bi-wiring, because it will be?
- But I understand that not all speakers benefit with this.
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Post by PGT on Sept 10, 2013 17:53:08 GMT -5
So, it sound better than 1 x 6 gauge cable?
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on Sept 10, 2013 18:01:43 GMT -5
So, it sound better than 1 x 6 gauge cable? The BASS sound better with 2X6 gauge. I feel the BASS with more body, more weight, understand. |
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Post by PGT on Sept 10, 2013 18:03:47 GMT -5
right. it was missing with your previous setup, which we can assume was 1 length of 6 gauge? Or, something else?
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Post by Bonzo on Sept 10, 2013 18:04:55 GMT -5
biwiring is akin to just using a heavier gauge wire. There is so much snake oil out in the world about wiring it's crazy, but what you say here is not snake oil, and I myself believe it to be one true physically proven benefit to bi-wiring. I believe it's a proven fact that using a thicker gauge speaker wire with analog signals has it's benefits, especially for longer runs. Using 12 gauge wire for a 100 foot run is better than using 20 gauge wire for example. Well, when you bi-wire your speakers you are basically doubling the thickness of your wires (maybe not totally doubling but you are increasing thickness for sure). How much this matters depends on the thickness you are using and the length of your run. I'd say for many it won't matter one bit. For others I'm sure it has. I believe I noticed a difference when I did it. Things sounded more open to me, with an air to them I didn't notice before. Was I snake charmed? I can't answer that. But if you stuck a gun to my head and asked me, I'd say absolutely yes, I noticed a difference. To mpow3r, if you are currently using Emotiva cable, which by most standards is down right inexpensive as hell, why not try it? You have $2000 in amps, and what? $8000 in speakers?  Many people in your situation would have another $800-$1000 in just 2 speaker cables, if not more. You've got less than $100!!! Try it and see if you like it. It certainly won't hurt. Well, and even if it does, just take them off and return them to Emotiva. Actually, now that I've wasted 15 minutes typing this, your question is quite a no brainer and almost stupid really. Duh!!!! |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 10, 2013 18:06:07 GMT -5
I'll bet you won't see any changes in freq response with REW after bi-wiring.  |
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Post by PGT on Sept 10, 2013 18:09:26 GMT -5
from my time in the business selling B&W, McIntosh, Levinson and others...nice cable is jewelry for your gear. We sold a lot of Monster M-Series, Audioquest and Transparent.....nice stuff but mostly branding.
The one thing I recall was that outside of twisted pairs and RF filters for noise rejection (both questionable with speaker wire mind you) was something called "skin effect" of larger cables. Low frequencies tend to travel on the skin of the conductor vs. the core, so a bigger cable diameter offers more highway for bass frequencies.
Heck...I've run B&W 801's off Romex and coat hangers...just to try it. The speakers sounded great! LOL.
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on Sept 10, 2013 18:10:37 GMT -5
I remembered something.
What is your subwoofer setup?
The SETUP of your SUBWOOFER alters the way you hear the BASS.
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on Sept 10, 2013 18:13:07 GMT -5
I'll bet you won't see any changes in freq response with REW after bi-wiring. Maybe you're right, but it's what I feel, just that. What is the fun, try different things, right? |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Sept 10, 2013 18:36:07 GMT -5
I'll bet you won't see any changes in freq response with REW after bi-wiring. Maybe you're right, but it's what I feel, just that. What is the fun, try different things, right? Absolutely. This hobby is to have fun. |
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Post by yves on Sept 10, 2013 19:04:58 GMT -5
The reason why it's not electrically the same as using thicker gauge wire is actually pretty simple. The back EMF of the woofer causes a signal that "runs" (so to speak, anyway), via the low frequency crossover network, and then via the speaker wires, back into the power amp's internal circuitry, as well as, via the removable links between the speaker's terminals, into the high frequency crossover network. In a bi-wiring scheme, assuming that we are talking about a true bi-wiring scheme, which consists of two completely *separate* crossover networks per speaker, each removable link is effectively replaced with one piece of wire that runs from the speaker's low frequency binding post to the amp, combined with yet another piece of wire that runs from the amp to the speaker's high frequency binding post. So, in a bi-wiring scheme, the signal caused by the woofer's back EMF gets forced to travel a much, MUCH farther distance for it to be able to reach the high frequency crossover network. More importantly on top of that, it is forced to travel via the amp. It is no big secret the fact that an amp does a rather fine job at sucking out the signal caused by back EMF. Those who believe that these differences do not matter in any way electrically are barely capable of understanding the difference between a DC circuit and an AC circuit at the highschool physics level, let alone comprehend complex circuit analysis.
If you could assume that speaker wire has no impedance, there would be no intermodulation between the low frequency signal and the high frequency signal, so then bi-wiring might not matter anyway, after all. Only trouble is, you very obviously can't.
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Post by yves on Sept 10, 2013 19:08:58 GMT -5
I'll bet you won't see any changes in freq response with REW after bi-wiring. I bet you won't hear any sound by looking at freq response with REW. |
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Post by paintedklown on Sept 10, 2013 19:48:55 GMT -5
I have a pair of XPA-1 monos and B&W 684s. I initially had them wired up with 12g wire to the "bass" driver, and the metal jumpers in place. I then read about the wondrous world of bi-wiring, and since the XPA-1s facilitate this with ease, I excitedly wired them up in a bi-wire fashion (dual 12g wires). I was expecting to hear a difference, but alas...I did not. Since they were already wired up as such, I left them that way until I moved. Once in my new place, I (of course) went with the bi-wiring scheme, simply just because I could. Not because I could detect any sonic benefits. Well, just as another test, I decided to go back to a single wire, to see if I could tell a difference. Result: It sounded exactly the same, so now I have left it alone, with a single strand of 12g to my speakers. Just my experience.  |
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Many people in your situation would have another $800-$1000 in just 2 speaker cables, if not more. You've got less than $100!!! Try it and see if you like it. It certainly won't hurt. Well, and even if it does, just take them off and return them to Emotiva. Actually, now that I've wasted 15 minutes typing this, your question is quite a no brainer and almost stupid really. Duh!!!!
