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Post by AudioHTIT on Sept 11, 2013 1:57:10 GMT -5
I use Canare 4S11 whether I'm bi-wiring or not, it makes it easy to do either. With the B&W 800 series I prefer bi-wiring because I don't really like those jumpers. I just fancied my cables up a bit with some techflex type covers and shrink tube (my 805's are now more visible and the braided covers look better). Though like PK I haven't heard much difference either way.
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Post by wizardofoz on Sept 11, 2013 2:57:13 GMT -5
wire gauge is important...I would not run less than 14AWG for LCR and while I would prefer to run the same for my rears I am probably around the 16-18AWG mark..
Bi-wire-Buy wire...and likewise Bi-Amp = Buy Amp(s) & wire too
if your wires are good you should not hear much difference if any at all. Running more or different wires will alter the resistance of the cable and the capacitances presented too. This might give the change in sound that you might hear.
Personally I dont think the electrons care. If you have want to try a simple test, just do it on one channel....drive the speaker with one wire (pair) and then try adding a 2nd pair....if you can hear a difference and LIKE it then go for life...If not then no money and time wasted buying more wires. try with and without the jumpers at the speaker end...(if you have that option) but expect just because it costs more it will sound better, different maybe, better only your ears and brain can tell you.
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JayZ
Minor Hero
Posts: 36 
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Post by JayZ on Sept 11, 2013 7:05:43 GMT -5
I once had my XPA-1s bi-wired to a pair of PMC Twenty 24 speakers with each amp placed right next to speaker. I was using 4mm Van Damme LC-OFC cable and because the speakers were so close to the amps, the cables were only 1m in length and also noteworthy - I used two wires rather than a bi-wire cable. I originally had the speakers terminated with gold plated clips but decided as part of this bi-wiring exercise, to remove the banana terminations, uniformly twist the copper strands and apply silver solder to obtain a "probe" which could be inserted directly to speaker terminals. And I can tell you these changes collectively did actually make a noticeable difference - suddenly instruments sounded as they were floating in the air, vocals were so pleasing to listen to and the low end had a tad more energy. Now what I cannot tell you definitely is whether it was mainly the bi-wiring that made the difference but going by normal Physics, I would say changing an already good banana clip connection to solder wire cannot alone make such a difference. Again going by Physics, conventional logic would say shorter wires are less likely to show differences in bi-wiring but again my real-world experience has been otherwise. In the past, I have used bi-wire cable running full-length (2-4m) from central amp to speakers but not had this level of improvement. Since then however, I have changed speakers and moved on to the thicker 6mm Van Damme LC-OFC cable (with silver soldered ends) and the results are very good. However, I decided against bi-wiring this time mainly because our recent house move has meant that it is no longer practical to keep amps next to speakers and running long-biwire cable hasn't shown a worthy improvement in the past.
So my suggestion is - try experimenting.
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Post by TKO on Sept 11, 2013 9:04:47 GMT -5
Looking for some general thoughts on bi-wiring. There seems to be a lot of people saying bi-wiring is a complete hoax and that amplifier/speaker companies add bi-wiring features just to appease the crowd. I have a pair of XPA-1's paired with some B&W 803D's via Emotiva E-connect speaker cable, currently not bi-wired but thinking of adding another set of cables. The one thing I can guarantee you will notice about this is that you will have spent 100% more for your speaker wire than you needed to.  Have a read of this article: The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio - Audio Critic, in particular # 7. Cheers. |
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Post by Jim on Sept 11, 2013 9:12:01 GMT -5
Looking for some general thoughts on bi-wiring. There seems to be a lot of people saying bi-wiring is a complete hoax and that amplifier/speaker companies add bi-wiring features just to appease the crowd. I have a pair of XPA-1's paired with some B&W 803D's via Emotiva E-connect speaker cable, currently not bi-wired but thinking of adding another set of cables. The one thing I can guarantee you will notice about this is that you will have spent 100% more for your speaker wire than you needed to. Have a read of this article: The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio - Audio Critic, in particular # 7. Cheers. It's called investing in copper... Come on!  |
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Post by mpow3r on Sept 11, 2013 9:21:00 GMT -5
biwiring is akin to just using a heavier gauge wire. There is so much snake oil out in the world about wiring it's crazy, but what you say here is not snake oil, and I myself believe it to be one true physically proven benefit to bi-wiring. I believe it's a proven fact that using a thicker gauge speaker wire with analog signals has it's benefits, especially for longer runs. Using 12 gauge wire for a 100 foot run is better than using 20 gauge wire for example. Well, when you bi-wire your speakers you are basically doubling the thickness of your wires (maybe not totally doubling but you are increasing thickness for sure). How much this matters depends on the thickness you are using and the length of your run. I'd say for many it won't matter one bit. For others I'm sure it has. I believe I noticed a difference when I did it. Things sounded more open to me, with an air to them I didn't notice before. Was I snake charmed? I can't answer that. But if you stuck a gun to my head and asked me, I'd say absolutely yes, I noticed a difference. To mpow3r, if you are currently using Emotiva cable, which by most standards is down right inexpensive as hell, why not try it? You have $2000 in amps, and what? $8000 in speakers?  Many people in your situation would have another $800-$1000 in just 2 speaker cables, if not more. You've got less than $100!!! Try it and see if you like it. It certainly won't hurt. Well, and even if it does, just take them off and return them to Emotiva. Actually, now that I've wasted 15 minutes typing this, your question is quite a no brainer and almost stupid really. Duh!!!! /agree I will order another set!  I already own several Audioquest products and I may venture back down that road at some point but I decided to give the emotiva wire a shot after the purchase of these speakers and amps. |
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Post by PGT on Sept 11, 2013 10:16:25 GMT -5
cable companies operate with nearly 90% gross profit on their gear. That should tell you something....
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Post by frenchyfranky on Sept 11, 2013 11:10:53 GMT -5
Increasing the size of speaker's wire is always a good thing for the SQ, in that logic, double the wire should improved the results, but how much? Little for me could be bigger for you... or vice versa, you'll have to try to find by yourself, this is the fun of this hobby.
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Post by deltadube on Sept 11, 2013 11:21:50 GMT -5
wire gauge is important...I would not run less than 14AWG for LCR and while I would prefer to run the same for my rears I am probably around the 16-18AWG mark.. Bi-wire-Buy wire...and likewise Bi-Amp = Buy Amp(s) & wire too if your wires are good you should not hear much difference if any at all. Running more or different wires will alter the resistance of the cable and the capacitances presented too. This might give the change in sound that you might hear. Personally I dont think the electrons care. If you have want to try a simple test, just do it on one channel....drive the speaker with one wire (pair) and then try adding a 2nd pair....if you can hear a difference and LIKE it then go for life...If not then no money and time wasted buying more wires. try with and without the jumpers at the speaker end...(if you have that option) but expect just because it costs more it will sound better, different maybe, better only your ears and brain can tell you. 18 awg seem really low for back surround speakers.. the longer the run the higher the resistance in the line.. hence a low gauge is needed.. 12 awg is good for about 45 ft... cheers.. |
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Post by PGT on Sept 11, 2013 11:52:06 GMT -5
Umm...that depends on a third factor...power/watts.
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Post by mpow3r on Sept 11, 2013 13:09:08 GMT -5
Looking for some general thoughts on bi-wiring. There seems to be a lot of people saying bi-wiring is a complete hoax and that amplifier/speaker companies add bi-wiring features just to appease the crowd. I have a pair of XPA-1's paired with some B&W 803D's via Emotiva E-connect speaker cable, currently not bi-wired but thinking of adding another set of cables. The one thing I can guarantee you will notice about this is that you will have spent 100% more for your speaker wire than you needed to. Have a read of this article: The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio - Audio Critic, in particular # 7. Cheers. So, by saying I spent 100% more than I needed to, you are saying there is a free option? I would like to hear what that option is. After spending $11,000 in amps, speakers, and processors, $39.99 with free shipping from Emotiva for cable sounded like a good deal... LOL |
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Post by TKO on Sept 11, 2013 16:17:11 GMT -5
The one thing I can guarantee you will notice about this is that you will have spent 100% more for your speaker wire than you needed to. Have a read of this article: The 10 Biggest Lies in Audio - Audio Critic, in particular # 7. Cheers. So, by saying I spent 100% more than I needed to, you are saying there is a free option? I would like to hear what that option is. After spending $11,000 in amps, speakers, and processors, $39.99 with free shipping from Emotiva for cable sounded like a good deal... LOL If you bi-wire and you bought the extra wire then yes. And the Emotiva speaker cables are a very good buy, as are Blue Jeans Cables. Quality engineering at inexpensive prices. But bi-wiring provides absolutely no improvements, sorry. Cheers. |
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Post by mpow3r on Sept 11, 2013 16:49:01 GMT -5
So, by saying I spent 100% more than I needed to, you are saying there is a free option? I would like to hear what that option is. After spending $11,000 in amps, speakers, and processors, $39.99 with free shipping from Emotiva for cable sounded like a good deal... LOL If you bi-wire and you bought the extra wire then yes. And the Emotiva speaker cables are a very good buy, as are Blue Jeans Cables. Quality engineering at inexpensive prices. But bi-wiring provides absolutely no improvements, sorry. Cheers. So, that would mean that the bi-wiring capabailities of Emotiva amps and B&W speakers are 100% completely useless and that the manuals for both products are wrong...... interesting. |
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Post by TUGA Audiophile on Sept 11, 2013 17:33:40 GMT -5
Guys this thread made me crazy...  More gauge + watts = better (SQ) dynamic in sound!!! Who agreed with me?  "KeithL HELP..." |
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Post by TKO on Sept 11, 2013 17:59:37 GMT -5
If you bi-wire and you bought the extra wire then yes. And the Emotiva speaker cables are a very good buy, as are Blue Jeans Cables. Quality engineering at inexpensive prices. But bi-wiring provides absolutely no improvements, sorry. Cheers. So, that would mean that the bi-wiring capabailities of Emotiva amps and B&W speakers are 100% completely useless and that the manuals for both products are wrong...... interesting. Not necessarily. The manuals may explain how to do it if the owner is so inclined. I don't know as I don't have them. But based on electrical engineering and the laws of physics there are no improvements to the signal possible under those conditions. Cheers. |
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Post by mpow3r on Sept 12, 2013 10:04:11 GMT -5
So, that would mean that the bi-wiring capabailities of Emotiva amps and B&W speakers are 100% completely useless and that the manuals for both products are wrong...... interesting. Not necessarily. The manuals may explain how to do it if the owner is so inclined. I don't know as I don't have them. But based on electrical engineering and the laws of physics there are no improvements to the signal possible under those conditions. Cheers. Somebody should let Emotiva know that the extra terminals on their monoblock amps are a complete waste of money based on the laws of physics.... |
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Post by TKO on Sept 12, 2013 17:45:17 GMT -5
They didn't buy them. They sell them.
Cheers.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Sept 12, 2013 19:28:46 GMT -5
Looks like it's time for my semi-annual bi-wiring spiel. I'm re-posting from a much earlier bi-wire (flame) thread. I've said many times, and observed, that bi-wiring may work, but the effects are subtle so your system has to be up to the task.
From Physics, an electrical current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field (the FBI rule where F is force, B is magnetic field strength in Gauss, and I is current). Therefore, the current flowing in our speaker cables produces a magnetic field.
This magnetic field varies in accordance with the signal being delivered to the speakers. In particular, the magnetic field of the slightly stronger bass frequencies interacts with the magnetic field of the slightly weaker high frequencies (known as intermodulation distortion IM). Bi-wiring can eliminate this distortion.
How you might ask? By physically separating the magnetic fields of the high and low frequency current. This separation is done in two steps.
1- removing the links between the two pairs of speaker binding posts, thereby totally separating the mid/woofer crossover from the tweeter crossover. Since I=E/R, or more correctly E/Z, and since Z is different for each leg of the crossover, a different current flows in each speaker cable.
2- running two sets of speaker cables to the (now separated) binding posts. The two sets of cables should be separated by an inch or two minimum.
Step 1 directs the low frequencies to the mid/woofer crossover and directs the high frequencies to the tweeter crossover (electrical separation).
Step 2 prevents the magnetic fields from modulating each other as they are physically separated.
Note that Step 2 is just as important as Step 1. If the cables are not physically separated bi-wiring will not work. Two cables in one bundle will not work.
Bi-wiring has nothing to do with skin effect, wire gauge, current in/ current out, etc., only IM distortion due to the magnetic field effect.
Note that Audioquest in their advertising for their Gibraltar (bi-wire) cable state that "it provides almost ideal isolation between the magnetic fields of the bass and treble current". Almost ideal because both conductors are not separated from each other.
Also note that Mapleshade and Insound recommend speaker cables be eight-feet or longer to eliminate the back EMF problem; a real problem.
Russ
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Post by PGT on Sept 12, 2013 19:45:19 GMT -5
well, there you go. as much as a random post on the internet is truth of course (and I don't doubt that it is honestly)
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bulldozer
Sensei
MORE POWER PLEASE!
Posts: 382
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Post by bulldozer on Sept 12, 2013 20:34:57 GMT -5
IMHO if the wire is to small to power the speaker without current being turned into heat before reaching the speaker, then and only then will bi-wiring help. And according to my very opinionated self as long as it is copper wire and of the correct gage, solid or stranded, and with corrosion free terminations it will sound good. And if they are no turns (or coils)in any wire going through any magnetic field it will sound good.
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Many people in your situation would have another $800-$1000 in just 2 speaker cables, if not more. You've got less than $100!!! Try it and see if you like it. It certainly won't hurt. Well, and even if it does, just take them off and return them to Emotiva. Actually, now that I've wasted 15 minutes typing this, your question is quite a no brainer and almost stupid really. Duh!!!!
