User feedback, what we like and dislike about Emotiva gear.

[stiehl11]

Sept 23, 2013 20:30:37 GMT -5 subdusted said:

I see what you are saying, just like we can argue about the way material was actually recorded. There are too many variables but...let's say I heard a live performance of an artist, then I listened to his CD using two amps : Mark Levinson 431 and Emotiva XPA-1L. The first one sounded more like the real thing. It made me feel what I felt then. Emotiva lacked that emotional grab. However, Emotiva IS a lot cheaper.

And therein lies the key to the whole discussion: There is always going to be better when you compare a $1,000 amp to a $10,000 amp. The first question is, is it 10x better? The second question is, is someone willing to pay that amount for that amount of performance? Quite honestly, $9,000 buys a lot of other things (like a new motrocycle and a week at Disney for my daughter and I). Take that by 2 (for 2 channels) and now I'm able to afford a host of other things (like a BMW bike and a week at Disney).

I understand your point; that Emotiva amps could be better. And better would cost more, whether it be a little odd and end here and there (like the XLR connections) or something more substantial. The fact is that Emotiva amps are the best bang for the buck out there IMO. To change to a higher quality connector or internals cuts down on the company's profitability if they keep the price the same. Pass that additional cost of upgraded parts on to the consumer and they lose their B4tB quotient. My opinion is that it is what it is. Yes, there's better out there... but for a cost. If that cost is justified to the owner/listener then that's what they should go for. For myself, cheap XLR connectors et al, I'm digging my Emotiva amps as is. When I want better, I know the cost and I know where to go. Fortunately for me and Emotiva I've got the best performance for the price I'm willing to pay.

[dally]

Sept 23, 2013 20:37:39 GMT -5 subdusted said:

What I am saying is...I would really hate to turn to another brand because I like everything else about this company. So, I believe it would be a good idea to make a higher end line of amps without us having to pay for monstrous power supplies that we may never need. That money could be channeled elsewhere in an amp.

I think this is RLW in disguise!

[jlafrenz]

Emotiva can't be everything to everyone. No company can. It is just a reality.

I often see requests for products to be made by Emotiva because someone has a personal need for it and they generally like Emotiva. I think what they fail to realize is that many of these items are very niche and there isn't a mass market for them. The cost to develop some of the products would greatly outweigh the income from them making it a very poor return on investment and bad business decision. If some of these products were brought to market, the cost to make them profitable would be too high and turn people off as it goes against the whole idea of Emotiva and their business model.

I think it is great that people have the confidence and trust Emotiva enough to encourage them to build particular products. They should just be realistic in their expectations. There certainly isn't any harm in making the suggestions or asking. The worst they can do is say "No" and you might even be surprised to find them saying "Yes" every once in a while.

These types of challenges face businesses other than Emotiva and in markets other than audio. Emotiva has openly stated that they do their best and realize their products don't fit the needs of every user. If you find yourself in that situation, feel free to spend your hard earned money on another product if it is what fits you best. I'm sure there are some companies out there that live by this philosophy, but not many.

[AudioHTIT]

The idea of giving Emo feedback on things we might like changed (and possibly pay more for) seems reasonable. I would go along with the XLR connectors (I'd like to see them lock), and a lot of people seem to have problems with the speaker connector spacing, they should probably look at that. I'd like them to get the L/R (horizontal) ins and outs correct on the XSP-1. In other words some minor layout and part selections. Might as well throw in fully dimming all front panel lights on all models, that sure gets a lot of ink.

To suggest telling them how to design their amps or change the way they sound, sorry too subjective, they make good amps. As for the preamps I just disagree, I think the XSP-1 is great, and not just for the price (it compared very nicely to my ARC tube preamp). Many others seem to love the USP-1 so seems like another winner, their preamps may just not be for you.

[garbulky]

This is a good thread but could turn ugly easily with back and forth. I think the purpose for this is simply constructive criticism aimed at helping better the brand. Not all of it would work. For instance, I do recognize that Emotiva is about compromise at a price but a very clever compromise. As in how much compromise can we use without compromising sound quality too much. they've wisely stuck to concentrating on sound quality which I think is always hard to do when everybody comes out with whiz bang features.

Having said that. Here are things I wish there could be some improvement.
1. Improve the connectors (they've already done some of that with the new X-series and the XPA-X00 stuff).

2. Ability to turn off display.

3. More real life testing and listening. I feel more time in real R&D is needed. Also they should all work the best with Emo's own equipment. This is not always the case. I think this is their weakest issue actually. Driver testing and bugs really need to be worked out. The volume controls of the USP-1 need to be tweaked etc. Also a bit more real-world listening to tune the sound a bit.

4. The XPR series baffles me. I think it's a heck of an acheivement but more watts was not what I fet the X series lacked in the slightest. I would have liked way better sound. Sort of like what they do with the first watt amps but with the power of the x-series. The R-series should have been a high end audiophile line in terms of distortion specs and sound quality. Maybe Carver's upcoming emo products may fill in the gap.

5. XLR on everything.

6. A high quality high current headphone amp is needed IMO. Not necesarily one that drives multiple headphones but simply a dedicated single unit that is really amaazing.
7. Reference DAC. No op-amps. Pure class A. Higher quality specs and sound. Like compete with the best etc. I'd pay a thousand but at a thousand it needs to have little in compromise. HDMI input on the DAC. And if at all possible redesign the XDA-2 with an optional subwoofer output. But the reference DAC should have none of that mess. Just pure quality sound and hopefully a great pre-amp.
8. More options for the control freak. Like a proper passive pre-amplifier with a sophistication similar to luminous audio.

In Emo's defense their products have had improvements and it's obvious they do listen to their customers.
Here's the impressive things they've done.

1. The XDA-2. That thing is incredible what they've delivered for the price. Look at all those features like separate headphone amplifier, separate volume controls, asynchronous on every input, etc. Wish they stuck with the class A output of the XDA-1 but at least they didn't go with a switching power supply. Well done.
2. XPA-1 and 1 L. Fully differential at those prices are amazing. Class A. Real showcase stuff IMO. Also the handling of the XPA-1 L bug. Impressive customer service.
3. Move to 29db gain. XLR inputs for XPA-200. Bravo!
4. Gen 2. They've taken an old design and tweaked it. Good for them.
5. XSP-1.
6. The control freak. Brilliant move.

As to the OP's suggestion for low bass extension. Interestingly I've found the low-bass extension on their amps varies depending on the equipment connected. Sort of like the components need the right synergy or if I had to guess the right impedance/current capabilities.

[Flunk]

Sept 23, 2013 21:30:03 GMT -5 dally said:

Sept 23, 2013 20:37:39 GMT -5 subdusted said:

What I am saying is...I would really hate to turn to another brand because I like everything else about this company. So, I believe it would be a good idea to make a higher end line of amps without us having to pay for monstrous power supplies that we may never need. That money could be channeled elsewhere in an amp.

I think this is RLW in disguise!

Man you didn't, yes you did. The crowd thought it, you wrote it. 

[bootman]

Sept 23, 2013 15:59:54 GMT -5 subdusted said:

As for discrete circuit vs IC ... it's like a power amp vs a receiver when it comes to amplification. Which one is better? ICs are cheaper , that's what tipped the scale in this case.

So I take it you don't like class D chip amps like the Hypex N-Core?
You can't make a general statement like that when good/great examples of the design type can be easily found.

[mgbpuff]

If you do not like Dan Laufman's business credo to bring AFFORDABLE high end quality sound to the everyday guy, then Emotiva is not for you. Go spend more of your money on trying to get that last .0001% of quality on high end uber priced equipment. I think some installers may have a chip on their shoulder because Emotiva changed their Pro policy to ID. I have some high priced equipment (not uber priced) and Emotiva performs admirably in that mix. Emotiva is my presently favorite value audio equipment manufacturer in the spirit of previous value/quality favorites as Dynaco, and Audio Alchemy. If they ever change their credo, then I will have to move on. You can increment changes here and there to their products and quickly get away from the premises that make this company unique.

[drtrey3]

I feel like a hopeless Emo fanboi, not that there is anything wrong with that. Still, the manual for the UMC-200 is a bit skimpy for my needs. I am figuring things out with the help of this board, but it is a little slower than it would have been had the manual been a bit more comprehensive.

Trey

[audiogeek]

I agree the manuals could be a little more descriptive, agree the connectors could be beefed up on the amps. But these are nits. I am extremely impressed with what we get for what we pay for these products. My old prepro that I bought 15 years ago, paid $1500 for then a $1000 upgrade doesnt sound as good as my UMC-1. These products are amazing compared to the traditional brands I used to look at. Yeah, I sound like a fan boy...

Comparing the sound of Emotiva amps to ML at 10x the cost doesn't make sense to me, because that is an entirely different market. People who buy ML don't worry much about price, they want the best regardless of cost. And most of the time they are not even getting the best, they are getting a name that they want to be able to say they own. I think a more fair comparison would be against a product that is maybe 2x the price that has some feature or sound that Emotiva could add for little increase in cost that would make it an even better value. I think they've actually already done that, but improvements can always be made.

[bootman]

Don't get me started about documentation......
If it isn't right it should not be posted at all.

[KeithL]

Looks like a well-thought-out list to me....

I'm just going to chime in on a few of these

First off, the new Generation 2 versions of the XPA amps are really our statement on that subject. We didn't change much because we were already quite pleased with how they performed (and how they sounded). The new versions do have a few subtle improvemets in how they sound, but it's not a night-and-day difference. You'll also be seeing the occasional new feature here and there (including one on the XPA-1g2 that you'll find especially interesting ), but we didn't see much that needed "fixing". 

The XPR's really are a statement about power, and dynamics, and cool styling, and POWER (oh, did I say that already?).

I'm a little confused about your comparison to First Watt; to me their products seem to be pretty much the exact opposite of the XPR's... and with good reason. Their whole philosophy revolves around circuits that simply aren't at all practical at anything above a few watts. (Their 25 watt unit has low distortion at 1 watt, mediocre distortion at 25 watts, and draws 180 watts - continuous.) I can't honestly comment on how the First Watt products sound; I've never heard one (mostly because they won't run any speakers I listen to, and I don't especially like any of the small, high efficiency speakers that they do work well with). To me, "a high-powered first watt design" would be sort of like "a motorcycle with a two ton extended bed that seats ten"; while I suppose it's possible; it just doesn't make sense. Would you really consider owning a "500 watt first watt type design" that put out 500 watts - and burned 4 kw - continuously - per channel?

Now, a separate headphone amp just might be on the way (but I will deny saying anything like that)

If you're thinking about a step up from the XDA-2, the DC-1 has some additional features, and an analog input (to connect that phono preamp or tuner); it also sounds slightly better, and it's here now. There might be a higher-end DAC on the horizon (or just past it), but not very soon. Personally, though, I would have to say that anything you would want to change in the DC-1 would be more of a matter of personal preference than a shortcoming. Its specs are pretty close to theoretical limits, and I haven't heard any other DAC that beats it in sound quality - at any price. An actual HDMI input on a two-channel DAC is a bit unusual, but not out of the question (don't confuse that with folks like W4S - who have an I2S input that uses an HDMI connector and cable; but isn't an HDMI input.) As for op amps, we don't really see them as "evil" per-se; they work very well in some situations, and not so well in others. For example, the tracking between transistors in an op amp is better than you can even theoretically get with discretes, and they really do usually make much better I/V converters. With line level circuitry, like in a DAC, running the analog stuff in Class A is trivial - even some op amps do it (it's only difficult to do Class A in power amps). I will say, though, that DACs are one of those subjects where you have to be really careful in terms of which features are actually useful, and which ones are just marketing hype.

Everybody likes the Control Freak - it sort of grows on you......

Sept 23, 2013 23:44:00 GMT -5 garbulky said:

This is a good thread but could turn ugly easily with back and forth. I think the purpose for this is simply constructive criticism aimed at helping better the brand. Not all of it would work. For instance, I do recognize that Emotiva is about compromise at a price but a very clever compromise. As in how much compromise can we use without compromising sound quality too much. they've wisely stuck to concentrating on sound quality which I think is always hard to do when everybody comes out with whiz bang features.

Having said that. Here are things I wish there could be some improvement.
1. Improve the connectors (they've already done some of that with the new X-series and the XPA-X00 stuff).

2. Ability to turn off display.

3. More real life testing and listening. I feel more time in real R&D is needed. Also they should all work the best with Emo's own equipment. This is not always the case. I think this is their weakest issue actually. Driver testing and bugs really need to be worked out. The volume controls of the USP-1 need to be tweaked etc. Also a bit more real-world listening to tune the sound a bit.

4. The XPR series baffles me. I think it's a heck of an acheivement but more watts was not what I fet the X series lacked in the slightest. I would have liked way better sound. Sort of like what they do with the first watt amps but with the power of the x-series. The R-series should have been a high end audiophile line in terms of distortion specs and sound quality. Maybe Carver's upcoming emo products may fill in the gap.

5. XLR on everything.

6. A high quality high current headphone amp is needed IMO. Not necesarily one that drives multiple headphones but simply a dedicated single unit that is really amaazing.
7. Reference DAC. No op-amps. Pure class A. Higher quality specs and sound. Like compete with the best etc. I'd pay a thousand but at a thousand it needs to have little in compromise. HDMI input on the DAC. And if at all possible redesign the XDA-2 with an optional subwoofer output. But the reference DAC should have none of that mess. Just pure quality sound and hopefully a great pre-amp.
8. More options for the control freak. Like a proper passive pre-amplifier with a sophistication similar to luminous audio.

In Emo's defense their products have had improvements and it's obvious they do listen to their customers.
Here's the impressive things they've done.

1. The XDA-2. That thing is incredible what they've delivered for the price. Look at all those features like separate headphone amplifier, separate volume controls, asynchronous on every input, etc. Wish they stuck with the class A output of the XDA-1 but at least they didn't go with a switching power supply. Well done.
2. XPA-1 and 1 L. Fully differential at those prices are amazing. Class A. Real showcase stuff IMO. Also the handling of the XPA-1 L bug. Impressive customer service.
3. Move to 29db gain. XLR inputs for XPA-200. Bravo!
4. Gen 2. They've taken an old design and tweaked it. Good for them.
5. XSP-1.
6. The control freak. Brilliant move.

As to the OP's suggestion for low bass extension. Interestingly I've found the low-bass extension on their amps varies depending on the equipment connected. Sort of like the components need the right synergy or if I had to guess the right impedance/current capabilities.

[AudioHTIT]

Sept 23, 2013 23:44:00 GMT -5 garbulky said:

5. XLR on everything.

I agree with most of your post except this. Even though I advocate XLR's whenever possible (and hear the difference using them in my 2C system), I think leaving them off the U series products makes sense and helps keep costs down. Many use short cables, and having a line of gear with good but basic features gives Emo the ability to compete with AVRs, and remain affordable to those with limited budgets or who just don't want to spend more.

Yes, all X and R series should have XLR's (Preamps, Processors, DACs, Amps), this currently seems to be the case. I might go as far as saying all of the R series should be fully balanced on all channels (including the multi-channel amps), the RMC-1 seems headed this way.

[Bonzo]

Sept 23, 2013 23:44:00 GMT -5 garbulky said:

This is a good thread but could turn ugly easily with back and forth. I think the purpose for this is simply constructive criticism aimed at helping better the brand. Not all of it would work. For instance, I do recognize that Emotiva is about compromise at a price but a very clever compromise. As in how much compromise can we use without compromising sound quality too much. they've wisely stuck to concentrating on sound quality which I think is always hard to do when everybody comes out with whiz bang features.

Having said that. Here are things I wish there could be some improvement.
1. Improve the connectors (they've already done some of that with the new X-series and the XPA-X00 stuff).

2. Ability to turn off display.

I'm glad you put these #1 and #2. These are my 2 biggest peeves with my 2 amps. One of my RCA's snapped almost as soon as I got my XPA-2. Emotiva says they'll fix it for free but I have to send it back. What a pain (80lbs in the back). And those friggin' laser beam flood light blue blinding lights......ugh. Just make it an option for us to dim and an option to turn completely off. They supposedly dimmed them some for the Gen 2 amps, but that falls short for me. I want OFF.

All,
In general, if someone asked me what I've always yearned for in my system, it's amazing speakers. The catch 22 is that most speakers I've heard or read about that sound great need great amplification. In my experience, great amplification has always been very expensive. So you need great amplification before getting great speakers. But ya know it's really hard to save up enough to buy say a $5000-$10,000 amp (or amps) when other companies are coming up with new cutting edge stuff in $1000 receivers. And when Oppo is reinventing the source business for $1200. Or when Panasonic puts out the bang for your buck ST plasma for $2000 (or less). Or when Pro-Ject makes a great entry level turn table like the $400 Debut Carbon. Out of all the components out there, the one thing that has been hardest to justify money wise is a great stand alone amplifier. It has been almost unobtainable for me, a normal middle class guy.

That is until now that I've discovered Emotiva. Screw all the other stuff they make. It may be great or it may suck but I don't care; to heck with rest of it. The most important components Emotive makes to me are good sounding, high quality, well made, high powered, good looking, amps. In just the last year I have gone from a measly 120 watt receiver (probably more like 50 watts all channels driven), to having 300 watts for my mains and 200 watts for the rest, all for less $ than many higher end receivers [Eventually I want to make one more upgrade, to run all 3 fronts with XPA-1's]. Now I can get started with the rest when ever I get the money. Now I could audition Martin Logans if I get the chance. Heck, if money fell from the sky I could even try some Wilson Audio's (best I've ever heard). There will always be better stuff out there no matter how much I spend, and I'm sure I'll never have total nirvana. But the thing is, I am finally in a spot to do what ever I want and not feel like a certain part of my system is holding everything else back. Now the physical order in which I upgrade doesn't matter. It's Emotiva's amps that have done that.

So where do I go next? Only time will tell. But since this thread is to sound off and tell Emotiva what we like and dislike, I would only say that you just try to keep making things better. Better sounding #1, better quality #2, and better looking #3, all in keeping the price as low and reasonable as possible like you do now. Concentrate on the amps and get to the other stuff when you get time. I can find most all the other components you make out there from other companies, but not the amps. Keep this up and you'll have a customer in me for a long long time.

Oh, but please fix the blinding blue light issue with a simple switch.

[jmasterj]

Since I only own one Emotiva product that's what I'll comment on. I purchased my ERC-1 CD player back in 2010 the fit and finish are IMHO second to none. This is the best CD player I've ever owned. About 13 months after I got it the loader went bad. Emotiva's service department installed a new loader and I really think it sounded better after it came back from service. The Customer Service again is second to none. Another thing about the ERC-1 that I like is that it has two sets of analog outputs. I'm currently using one set to feed my integrated amp and the other for my headphone amp.

I'm in the process of purchasing a tube power amp and was trying to figure out how I would connect my sub. The new amp has 8ohms and 4ohms taps. I want to connect my speakers directly to the amp not to the sub. I can connect the sub directly to the ERC-1 analog outputs. I won't be able to control the subs volume with the amp but I can set the subs volume to match the volume of the speakers. My MMG's do need a sub so this is a welcomed convenience.

Now to venture away from the topic which is likes and dislikes about the equipment just to say that I've never seen or done business with another company like Emotiva before. One that is so attentive to it's customers Dan, Keith, and Andrew are watching the post, they chime in all the time they really care how we the customers feel, and about what we need that's what I like about the company they stay connected to us. In the real world where we live there are going to be some problems things malfunction and sometimes they break to me Emotiva does everything possible to make sure each customer is satisfied. This thread is a prime example. Now for the dislikes...Nodda Keep up the good work Guys. John

[PGT]

Sept 24, 2013 8:57:31 GMT -5 drtrey3 said:

I feel like a hopeless Emo fanboi, not that there is anything wrong with that. Still, the manual for the UMC-200 is a bit skimpy for my needs. I am figuring things out with the help of this board, but it is a little slower than it would have been had the manual been a bit more comprehensive.

Trey

you must not have been raised on a steady diet of Japanese consumer electronics manuals like the common man. Emotiva's work deserves a Pulitzer in comparison. ROFL.

[drtrey3]

PGT, I have no disagreement with you pal!

Trey

[subdusted]

I don't think U-series need XLRs. UPA-200 is amazing value, no need to make it more complicated and expensive. I also agree that R-amps are a statement...they are Emotiva's best so they all should be balanced. Still believe that it would be great if for additional 100 bucks we could get an amp with a premium package ( better XLRs, IECs, wiring). Nothing too involved like caps..just some basic stuff that , if bought in bulk , would cost peanuts to a company, yet wouldn't be hard to implement and would also be a source of additional profit and satisfy another group of customers. If you are paying, say, 1400 for a set of monoblocks...wouldn't you pay another hundred or so to leave no bottlenecks ? Well...some people wouldn't, but some would. Like I said, there is nothing too involved in this process. it's not hard to actually implement. This is a very simple way for a company to make more money and attract more customers at the same time.

In a couple of weeks, when I get the parts I ordered ( Furutech XLRs, Furutech IECs, XLO U12-125 ) I'll install them, give them a couple of weeks to burn-in and will post my findings. If the difference is negligible, I'll take them off and sell them...but if it is indeed audible , then maybe someone at Emotiva should at least entertain the idea of premium packages.

[jlafrenz]

Any time you deviate from the normal mass production, the cost is going to increase. It isn't necessarily the parts, but the labor required to customize those amps or components. Sure you could set a specific number of them aside and make the adjustments, but if they don't sell then you run the risk of having sellable inventory just sitting there. This actually costs you money. There are only a handful of people that would desire this and are willing to cough up the extra cash for modifications. I bet the general public wouldn't be accepting of these costs because they figure there are only a few bucks in parts being replaced and don't understand the real cost (labor) to have the mods done. There are several companies out there that do offer mods on their own products and others. They usually charge a premium for this service and often ends up being more than just $100.

I personally think that based upon the volume that Emotiva does, this would cause a lot of headaches and really not be worth it based on how many they would likely sell. Services like these are often best left to those who specifically do modifications. However, if you go that route the next questions becomes the validity of the warranty... That is a whole new topic though.

[dally]

Sept 24, 2013 16:21:13 GMT -5 subdusted said:

I don't think U-series need XLRs. UPA-200 is amazing value, no need to make it more complicated and expensive. I also agree that R-amps are a statement...they are Emotiva's best so they all should be balanced. Still believe that it would be great if for additional 100 bucks we could get an amp with a premium package ( better XLRs, IECs, wiring). Nothing too involved like caps..just some basic stuff that , if bought in bulk , would cost peanuts to a company, yet wouldn't be hard to implement and would also be a source of additional profit and satisfy another group of customers. If you are paying, say, 1400 for a set of monoblocks...wouldn't you pay another hundred or so to leave no bottlenecks ? Well...some people wouldn't, but some would. Like I said, there is nothing too involved in this process. it's not hard to actually implement. This is a very simple way for a company to make more money and attract more customers at the same time.

I do agree to a point, but where do you draw the line? If emo did as you suggested there would always be someone that says "they upgraded the XLR's IEC's and wiring, so why not pay $100 more and get better caps as well." It would never end. I think they do a pretty good job of balancing quality with value. Just my 2 cents.