User feedback, what we like and dislike about Emotiva gear.

[subdusted]

I think all of us will benefit if we share not only praise but healthy criticism and let the company know what kind of changes we would like to see , what kind of steps should be taken in order to make the brand better and completely satisfy the customers. I do installations and my choices of gear are Emotiva and Oppo, these are two brands I highly recommend to customers.

I have listened to pretty much everything but the XPR line. So... some things that I believe can be improved :

The overall sound is pretty good, very detailed, has a lot of "air", really tight but not very deep bass...However, all Emotiva amps have one thing in common and I listened to them in all kinds of configurations with dozens of different speakers from cheaper Polk Monitors to Magnepan 20.7 and electrostats - they sound a little TOO clean, somewhat sterile, they lack life a little. I went to quite a few concerts and was comparing live performance sound to the sound I got from Emotiva gear. It's not horrible by any means but this effect exists nevertheless. That's the only thing that makes even low-end Levinsons sound like they are in a totally different league.

My next issue : on XPA-1 and XPA-1L the speaker terminals are so far apart that it makes it impossible to hook up speaker cables without slicing them. I brought a whole box of speaker cables ranging from 200 dollars to over 2000 for testing and I couldn't hook them up...Obviously, I wasn't going to tear apart 1500 dollar speaker cables just to see if they are a good match to the gear. That was frustrating.

Now, what's up with building a great fully balanced amp ( XPA-1L ) using microchips instead of discrete components? It just doesn't make any sence, it's like the company intentionally wants to make it sound worse than it actually does. The same thing goes with XLR terminals on all XPA amps - they are El-cheapo junk... I am not asking for Furutech ( although such option would be cool and that's on my XPA-1L upgrade list ) but tried and proven Neutrik - they are cheap but way better than what is used by Emotiva now.

Other than these issues I am pretty happy with Emotiva amps. The craftmanship and build quality are indeed very good, as well as the sound.

As much as I like Emotiva power amps, I can't say the same thing about preamplifiers... The functionality and versatility are awesome but they do color the sound ( the simplest test is just to hook a player directly to a poweramp and the difference is quite audible ). Also, when I compared XSP-1 to preamps from other brands, it sounded harsher, less natural and pleasing. Although the specs look pretty good on paper, I suspect certain harmonics are high, which creates a sense of high resolution but doesn't help the tonality overall. Also, there are just way too many resistors in the signal path which is never good, especially if, let's be honest here, pretty cheap ones , not exactly audiophile quality.

I've had limited experience with a processor and it wasn't a very good one. Too buggy. Kept freezing and malfunctioning. Then I've read similar complaints online and it steered me away from the processors for now. Hopefully they will get better in the future as I would love being able to use Emotiva gear only in my line of work.

Thanks.

[Gary Cook]

You already know what's going to happen!

I have had zero, zilch, none, not the slightest problem with my UMC-1, my uncles UMC-1, my cousins UMC-1 and more recently my UMC-200. Not saying that you haven't had issues, just that we haven't.

It sounds (sic) to me like you have a preference for (what I describe as) the "tube" like sound, which is absolutely not what Emotiva is about. As someone who has worked in professional (live performance) sound for decades I can say we use a fair amount of 2nd harmonic distortion to smooth out the harshness in concert venues. Comparing amplified live performance with hifi, as a result, is a flawed test.

True hifi equipment is very revealing and if there are failings in the speakers and/or the acoustics then even great gear can sound harsh. Hardly the fault of the equipment, more the set up and/or the environment.

Cheers
Gary

[bootman]

How about "let's see some measurements" to correlate what you are hearing?
If you suspect "certain harmonics" are high, then they should be able to be measured, no?
Same thing with ICs over discrete circuit designs. If you think discrete sounds "better" given the same design, then it should be easily measured.

Totally agree about the connectors.
The gen 2 stuff is supposed to be better in that regard but I haven't owned one yet so I'll leave that to others to verify.

...Oh if you think the Amps are "too clean" maybe they are!
and isn't that a good thing? Amps are not supposed to be tone controls.

[PGT]

Three suggestions for me: 1) I'd like an XPA-7, 2) a replacement for the SR-8100 but with preouts for all channels this time (or at least the front stage) and 3) no noise out of my Sherbourn 4Z-75 when there's no signal out of it (instead of the hiss I hear when I put an ear up the speakers).

[geebo]

I remember someone from Emotiva explaining that, in the case of the speaker terminals, you can use the holes in the sides of the posts in which case the EMO speaker cables will reach. Then just tighten the thumb nuts to secure.

[bootman]

Sept 23, 2013 15:05:04 GMT -5 geebo said:

I remember someone from Emotiva explaining that, in the case of the speaker terminals, you can use the holes in the sides of the posts in which case the EMO speaker cables will reach. Then just tighten the thumb nuts to secure.

Still a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing.
Not the first time this has happened.
Remember the usp/umc remote fiasco?
Sure it was "fixed" but still sloppy execution.

Hope that doesn't happen with the XMC and XSP.

[Porscheguy]

Sept 23, 2013 14:07:43 GMT -5 subdusted said:

I think all of us will benefit if we share not only praise but healthy criticism and let the company know what kind of changes we would like to see , what kind of steps should be taken in order to make the brand better and completely satisfy the customers. I do installations and my choices of gear are Emotiva and Oppo, these are two brands I highly recommend to customers.

I have listened to pretty much everything but the XPR line. So... some things that I believe can be improved :

The overall sound is pretty good, very detailed, has a lot of "air", really tight but not very deep bass...However, all Emotiva amps have one thing in common and I listened to them in all kinds of configurations with dozens of different speakers from cheaper Polk Monitors to Magnepan 20.7 and electrostats - they sound a little TOO clean, somewhat sterile, they lack life a little. I went to quite a few concerts and was comparing live performance sound to the sound I got from Emotiva gear. It's not horrible by any means but this effect exists nevertheless. That's the only thing that makes even low-end Levinsons sound like they are in a totally different league.

My next issue : on XPA-1 and XPA-1L the speaker terminals are so far apart that it makes it impossible to hook up speaker cables without slicing them. I brought a whole box of speaker cables ranging from 200 dollars to over 2000 for testing and I couldn't hook them up...Obviously, I wasn't going to tear apart 1500 dollar speaker cables just to see if they are a good match to the gear. That was frustrating.

Now, what's up with building a great fully balanced amp ( XPA-1L ) using microchips instead of discrete components? It just doesn't make any sence, it's like the company intentionally wants to make it sound worse than it actually does. The same thing goes with XLR terminals on all XPA amps - they are El-cheapo junk... I am not asking for Furutech ( although such option would be cool and that's on my XPA-1L upgrade list ) but tried and proven Neutrik - they are cheap but way better than what is used by Emotiva now.

Other than these issues I am pretty happy with Emotiva amps. The craftmanship and build quality are indeed very good, as well as the sound.

As much as I like Emotiva power amps, I can't say the same thing about preamplifiers... The functionality and versatility are awesome but they do color the sound ( the simplest test is just to hook a player directly to a poweramp and the difference is quite audible ). Also, when I compared XSP-1 to preamps from other brands, it sounded harsher, less natural and pleasing. Although the specs look pretty good on paper, I suspect certain harmonics are high, which creates a sense of high resolution but doesn't help the tonality overall. Also, there are just way too many resistors in the signal path which is never good, especially if, let's be honest here, pretty cheap ones , not exactly audiophile quality.

I've had limited experience with a processor and it wasn't a very good one. Too buggy. Kept freezing and malfunctioning. Then I've read similar complaints online and it steered me away from the processors for now. Hopefully they will get better in the future as I would love being able to use Emotiva gear only in my line of work.

Thanks.

Lack of bass on the XPR-1's? Are you kidding me? How long have you owned yours? That is not true at all....

[Golden Ear]

Sept 23, 2013 14:07:43 GMT -5 subdusted said:

I think all of us will benefit if we share not only praise but healthy criticism and let the company know what kind of changes we would like to see , what kind of steps should be taken in order to make the brand better and completely satisfy the customers. I do installations and my choices of gear are Emotiva and Oppo, these are two brands I highly recommend to customers.

I have listened to pretty much everything but the XPR line. So... some things that I believe can be improved :

The overall sound is pretty good, very detailed, has a lot of "air", really tight but not very deep bass...However, all Emotiva amps have one thing in common and I listened to them in all kinds of configurations with dozens of different speakers from cheaper Polk Monitors to Magnepan 20.7 and electrostats - they sound a little TOO clean, somewhat sterile, they lack life a little. I went to quite a few concerts and was comparing live performance sound to the sound I got from Emotiva gear. It's not horrible by any means but this effect exists nevertheless. That's the only thing that makes even low-end Levinsons sound like they are in a totally different league.

My next issue : on XPA-1 and XPA-1L the speaker terminals are so far apart that it makes it impossible to hook up speaker cables without slicing them. I brought a whole box of speaker cables ranging from 200 dollars to over 2000 for testing and I couldn't hook them up...Obviously, I wasn't going to tear apart 1500 dollar speaker cables just to see if they are a good match to the gear. That was frustrating.

Now, what's up with building a great fully balanced amp ( XPA-1L ) using microchips instead of discrete components? It just doesn't make any sence, it's like the company intentionally wants to make it sound worse than it actually does. The same thing goes with XLR terminals on all XPA amps - they are El-cheapo junk... I am not asking for Furutech ( although such option would be cool and that's on my XPA-1L upgrade list ) but tried and proven Neutrik - they are cheap but way better than what is used by Emotiva now.

Other than these issues I am pretty happy with Emotiva amps. The craftmanship and build quality are indeed very good, as well as the sound.

As much as I like Emotiva power amps, I can't say the same thing about preamplifiers... The functionality and versatility are awesome but they do color the sound ( the simplest test is just to hook a player directly to a poweramp and the difference is quite audible ). Also, when I compared XSP-1 to preamps from other brands, it sounded harsher, less natural and pleasing. Although the specs look pretty good on paper, I suspect certain harmonics are high, which creates a sense of high resolution but doesn't help the tonality overall. Also, there are just way too many resistors in the signal path which is never good, especially if, let's be honest here, pretty cheap ones , not exactly audiophile quality.

I've had limited experience with a processor and it wasn't a very good one. Too buggy. Kept freezing and malfunctioning. Then I've read similar complaints online and it steered me away from the processors for now. Hopefully they will get better in the future as I would love being able to use Emotiva gear only in my line of work.

Thanks.

Those I highlighted on the top were my thoughts. I had to mix Marantz in my setup to add warmth, depth and bass to make music sound lush and fluid.

[subdusted]

Sept 23, 2013 15:30:49 GMT -5 Porscheguy said:

[quote source="/post/568496/thread" timestamp="1379963263" author="subdusted"
Lack of bass on the XPR-1's? Are you kidding me? How long have you owned yours? That is not true at all....

If you have read my post than you should see that I've had no experience with the XPR line. I am not saying Emotiva lacks bass.. it's very tight just not really deep

[subdusted]

Sept 23, 2013 14:52:53 GMT -5 bootman said:

Same thing with ICs over discrete circuit designs. If you think discrete sounds "better" given the same design, then it should be easily measured.

Totally agree about the connectors.
The gen 2 stuff is supposed to be better in that regard but I haven't owned one yet so I'll leave that to others to verify.

...Oh if you think the Amps are "too clean" maybe they are!
and isn't that a good thing? Amps are not supposed to be tone controls.

As for discrete circuit vs IC ... it's like a power amp vs a receiver when it comes to amplification. Which one is better? ICs are cheaper , that's what tipped the scale in this case.

I have a Gen 2 XPA-5. The RCA inputs are better, they are like the ones on XPA-1L, but XLRs are still the same.

I realize that amps are not tone controls but...they are not exactly neutral. All Emotiva gear has emphasis on highs, which gives us this high resolution feeling and I personally don't mind that, although it's not exactly a "true reproduction"... but it also sucks out some life out of female vocals. I compared Emotiva amps only to SS ones and it's there. Emotiva bettered them in other aspects but this one was a loser. Tube gear does sound different, although I've heard a pretty expensive tube CJ amp that sounded like crap.
Just to make it clear, the only amps I was absolutely blown away by were Pathos monoblocks costing close to 20 K...That was the only piece of equipment I can call perfect. So, Emotiva holds it's ground but there's room for improvement, just like everywhere else. I belive it is a good thing if we give the critical feedback, it will only help the company get better.

[Golden Ear]

Sept 23, 2013 14:52:53 GMT -5 bootman said:

How about "let's see some measurements" to correlate what you are hearing?
If you suspect "certain harmonics" are high, then they should be able to be measured, no?
Same thing with ICs over discrete circuit designs. If you think discrete sounds "better" given the same design, then it should be easily measured.

Totally agree about the connectors.
The gen 2 stuff is supposed to be better in that regard but I haven't owned one yet so I'll leave that to others to verify.

...Oh if you think the Amps are "too clean" maybe they are!
and isn't that a good thing? Amps are not supposed to be tone controls.

An ideal amp has no sound personality. It just amplify the signal its get from the preamp to drive a speaker.

[TUGA Audiophile]

SORRY...BUT
- I don't have time for this s..t, ok!?

[aussie]

I think personal taste/preference to a type of sound influences these sort of critiques to a extent, as well as not only differences in equipment but also the need to factor in room acoustics. Best way to see if something is really there or not is to do sound measurements and look at the readings.

Have to agree with others in that a ideal amplifier should not add or subtract anything it should amplify only and I think IMHO that the Emotiva XPA and XPR range are in fact fairly neutral. When after a particular sound I think people should look towards speakers, placement and room treatments or EQ to achieve a personal preference in final sound.

But everyone's different, YMMV so listen and buy what YOU like the sound of. There's so much choice out there these days there's something to suit everyone. As to the physical connections I have to agree with you, I think everyone would like to see better RCA and XLR's. I'd also like to see a option for being able to dim all lights (including power buttons) with say 4 settings from high to med to low and off.

[subdusted]

I do installations...so I have listened to Emotiva gear in all kinds of rooms with all kinds of speakers and cables. I usually have people say what they think of the sound first and in most cases our opinions coinside. Emotiva is unbeatable for HT but with music there are some trade-offs I mentioned above.
Also, I really think that there should be more niches.. Why do I have to go all the way up to XPR line to get premium components when all I need is 5-8 watts to make high sensitivity speakers sing? Why do I have to pay for this truckload of power that I will never use or need? Why not built a 100-150 watt amp using the best components available to the manufacturer?
It would also be nice to have standard and premium options of some devices. The topology will most likely stay the same, just better parts used. I would rather pay more for my XPA-1Ls but squeeze out better performance.

[DYohn]

The things I like the most: well designed gear with no hype. Specs that are real and tested with the test results available, no meaningless audiophile BS, and the best customer service in the industry. And the low prices are pretty fantastic too.

[jdskycaster]

I will only comment on the reference to how amps sound. It seems like you equate the cost of a part to its ability to perform. I don't subscribe because just as Bootman eluded to if there is a difference it can be measured. Unfortunately in my observations over the last twenty years or so not a single audiophile that has subjected themselves to the test can prove they hear a difference between two solid state amps that measure well and are driving a load within their designed operating range. I am talking about products just as you elude to. In one such test a $1K stereo amp vs a pair of mono blocks retailing for $50K.

Maybe Lonnie or Dan will add some thoughts here but my guess is they could just as easily use the most expensive discrete components available in the marketplace. They could have the amps individually hand built rather than utilize modern manufacturing processes. Maybe in the end this would even yield a product that measures just a bit better than the best currently available in their lineup today. The question you need to answer is how much would you be willing to pay for that product? I know you said you would be willing to pay more but would that be 5x, 10x, 20x the cost of your current XPA amp?

[subdusted]

It doesn't have to be 5 or 10 times more. Not even two.I brought up Neutrik XLRs...they cost peanuts, yet would be an upgrade. Same goes with a few other things, like higher quality resistors or capacitors. Next month I will be upgrading a few things in my XPA-1Ls - have never done it on Emotiva gear but from experience these changes are quite noticeable, although not always for the better. I remember when we replaced some cheap wiring in a pair of speakers with Cardass and it actually made them sound worse, but only through experimenting one can actually get some understanding and experience.
The fact that someone didn't hear a difference btw a 1k amp and a 50K one tells me that this person or persons had untrained ears. That's all there is to it. That or maybe other components were poorly picked. If you have a 20 dollar DVD player as your music source , Radioshack cables and HTIB speakers than it doesn't really matter what amp you use.

As for the measurements...numbers very often don't mean much. For example, with cables..Some sound better , some worse..some sound great with certain amp-speaker combos but really dull with others...what can you possibly measure there and what will these measurements tell you? ...it's still the same cable, yet the difference may be tremendous.

Don't get me wrong, I am not bashing Emotiva< on the contrary - I like most of their gear and that is why I am sticking to it...just want a few things to be improved.

[aussie]

Sounds to me like you need to look at higher grade products then or at least stick with the higher end Emotiva items as they become of avail or to light such as the possible RMC etc..etc..

Your suggesting just this small improvement and that slightly better component, they will all in the end reflect final product price. I think Emotiva for the most part try to bring people a decent over-all build and sound quality for a given price point. Which allows people with lower budgets or those with more brains than dollars or just the people their products appeal to, to enjoy good quality audio with-out the need for over-inflated price tags.

And I'm sorry to disagree but I believe if you can hear it, it certainly can be measured. Placebo's and/or what we "think" we hear are a different matter.

[subdusted]

Sept 23, 2013 14:38:03 GMT -5 Gary Cook said:

You already know what's going to happen!

As someone who has worked in professional (live performance) sound for decades I can say we use a fair amount of 2nd harmonic distortion to smooth out the harshness in concert venues. Comparing amplified live performance with hifi, as a result, is a flawed test.

Cheers
Gary

This Saturday I am going to a classical music concert where there will be no equipment used. How is that a flawed test?
Also, I do enjoy opera and small unplugged performances...are these flawed tests as well?

I see what you are saying, just like we can argue about the way material was actually recorded. There are too many variables but...let's say I heard a live performance of an artist, then I listened to his CD using two amps : Mark Levinson 431 and Emotiva XPA-1L. The first one sounded more like the real thing. It made me feel what I felt then. Emotiva lacked that emotional grab. However, Emotiva IS a lot cheaper.

[subdusted]

What I am saying is...I would really hate to turn to another brand because I like everything else about this company. So, I believe it would be a good idea to make a higher end line of amps without us having to pay for monstrous power supplies that we may never need. That money could be channeled elsewhere in an amp.