speaker size

[lmr]

What happens when a speaker is too big for a room? I've heard it tossed around that too big will over power the room and I'm not sure I understand what that means.If one were to pick out speakers due to room size, is there a formula? My issue stems from a sub woofer. I have a chance to get a JL Audio F113 used for a good price.Maybe the F112 would be better but the F113 is available. I am looking for sound reproduction as well as theatre sound.Can't the signals be adjusted so it isn't the dominate sound?

[DYohn]

There's no such thing as "too big for a room." It is possible to use the wrong type of gear for a given room (near field monitors in a large listening space, or long-throw pro-style or line array speakers in a small room) so that they won't sound their best, but any gear will work in any room, it's all about how you set it up.

[monkumonku]

Sept 27, 2013 10:29:22 GMT -5 DYohn said:

There's no such thing as "too big for a room." It is possible to use the wrong type of gear for a given room (near field monitors in a large listening space, or long-throw pro-style or line array speakers in a small room) so that they won't sound their best, but any gear will work in any room, it's all about how you set it up.

Not exactly true... a speaker could literally be too big for a room. Like this might not fit in every room:

[DYohn]

Well in that case you obviously just need a bigger room.

[jlafrenz]

Sept 27, 2013 10:29:22 GMT -5 DYohn said:

There's no such thing as "too big for a room." It is possible to use the wrong type of gear for a given room (near field monitors in a large listening space, or long-throw pro-style or line array speakers in a small room) so that they won't sound their best, but any gear will work in any room, it's all about how you set it up.

I agree with this. When purchasing speakers, you need to keep in mind your specific application.

[jmasterj]

I guess the first thing I would like to ask is this. Is there a problem with the sub that you have ? I noticed you have B&W 802n for front speakers, and Polk Audio for surrounds are you shopping because you really feel the sub is lacking, or is it too much? Or is that you aren't able to blend it coherently with your speakers ? I have a Polk Audio PSW 505 sub I have it dialed in and I use it with both pairs of speakers I currently own with no problem. It has 300 watts continuous, and 460 watts dynamic power. With an overall frequency response 23hz-160hz, -3db frequency response 28hz-125hz. I should add that the subs volume level is really turned down low. But I'm just using mine for 2 channel music.

Someone above mentioned when purchasing speakers you need to keep in mind your specific application. A subs job is to augment/compliment the main speakers. You didn't mention which model your sub is. But with those B&W's you shouldn't need a lot of help. Maybe you think your sub is too cheap for your set up? Maybe your space is large and you feel your system is falling short. But your question " can't the signals be adjusted so it isn't the dominate sound" suggest the issue you are having is a problem with your sub settings i.e. volume and crossover point. I can't tell if you're saying you have too much bass or not enough. So what is issue are you having?

[lmr]

The sub I have now is a micropro 3000 10". I just am not happy with the performance. Maybe I don't have it set up right. The question of turning the signal down was in reference to the F113 if it was too big. The Polk just doesn't sound clean to me. I am limited to the subs placement Which probably has a lot to do with it.If I can swing it and it is still around in a month, I'll get it. The question really is a hypothetical one as I have heard the term ( over powering the room ) before.

[knucklehead]

Subwoofers need to compress the air in a room in order for them to function as intended by the manufacturer. You may have a smaller room but you need to look at the connecting spaces it will have to work with. If you have a living room that is open to a kitchen or dining room you need to take that into account. That may be why your 10" sub isn't doing the job you were asking it to do. It would work in a small bedroom - with the door closed - open the door and you change the volume of the room and decrease the effectiveness of the sub.

[lmr]

Makes sense as I am in a raised ranch with the kitchen next to the living/ listening room.

[jmasterj]

Question if your current space limits the placement of your sub, which might be the reason it's not performing correctly, and if "maybe you don't have it set up right" which could also be the problem as well, do you really think buying a different sub will correct that? That Micro Pro 3000 appears to be a decent sub. It sounds like you could spend the money and still end up with the same problem.

May I suggest you ask Andrew here on the forum I believe he has experience with B&W 800 series speakers he might be able to assist you. Good Luck J.

[Boomzilla]

Two speaker/room mismatches that I've experienced personally are:

I had a pair of Spendor LS3/5a speakers (small two-ways) that just didn't work in my 15x25 foot room. The speakers couldn't play loudly enough to match the room and they sounded somewhat "tinny" while up on stands. They are great speakers - just not great in my room.

A friend of mine has some Axiom Audio M80 speakers in a very small room. In his room, he must listen no more than six or seven feet from each speaker. At that distance, the discreet locations of the drivers are sometimes audible (treble comes from the top end of the speaker, bass from near the floor, etc.). The speaker still works properly, and sounds very good, but in a bigger room, the drivers would blend better.

So "matching" a speaker to a room includes not only avoiding "overwhelming" the room room with bass, but also ensuring that the loudness capabilities of the speaker are adequate to the room size, ensuring that the distance between drivers is appropriate for the listening distance, and ensuring that the tonal balance of the speaker is not altered by non-symmetrical speaker placement in the room. The last, by the way, is one of the most often ignored, and with potentially some of the biggest effect on the imaging.

Cordially - Boomzilla

[cgolf]

Sept 27, 2013 10:34:05 GMT -5 monkumonku said:

Sept 27, 2013 10:29:22 GMT -5 DYohn said:

There's no such thing as "too big for a room." It is possible to use the wrong type of gear for a given room (near field monitors in a large listening space, or long-throw pro-style or line array speakers in a small room) so that they won't sound their best, but any gear will work in any room, it's all about how you set it up.

Not exactly true... a speaker could literally be too big for a room. Like this might not fit in every room:

I'm in construction. We'd be happy to scope out, spec and build a HT for Marty. It will take a week to get prints and depending on size, materials, etc. construction can be completed within 90 days.

[Deleted]

Lmr, please no offense intended in my post.  I'm not sure of your past experience, the size of your room (very important) or your budget.

I see you have a superb and expensive speaker, the 802N, which was test measured down to -3dB's at 31Hz, excellent performance.  IMO the Polk subs are not up to a comparable level of performance relative to the B&W's.  This is not to degrade the Polks, they are just not at the same very high level of excellence.  I also see you have a medium priced AVR as your your pre-pro and maybe for extras channel amps.  The XPR-1's are superb for the 802N's.  I would in no way depend on the Yamaha's YPAO room correction system to set the output/gain or crossover of the sub.  A manual override is the only way to make sure the sub is not playing too loud or over powering the main speakers as perhaps it now is.  A manual main/sub setup will ensure you have an excellent blend between the sub and your mains.   If you have multiple seats or seating areas more than a single sub might be recommended.

The JL Audio Fathom f113 is a superb sub and would be an excellent but pricey (for my budget) addition to your system.  They are also pretty.  Several good alternatives from internet direct firms would be from Ryhtmik and  SVS.  The sealed models from these very highly regarded companies might be slightly better for music but the ported models will go lower and louder for HT and still very good for music.  See the F15HP or FV15HP from Ryhtmik.  See the PB-13Ultra or SB13-Ultra from SVS.  Another option would be the ULS-15 or VTF-15H from HSU.  
 
In the future you might consider upgrading your surround speakers and adding a center channel speaker with 3 more channels of power from Emotiva. Matching speakers (to the 802N) for the center and surrounds would be nice (B&W HTM2 and 804).  The Emotiva UMC-200 pre-pro or the future XMC-1 would be excellent for your sub due to the sophisticated sub quad parametric EQ, let alone the superior sound quality.  This will give you excellent flexibility for the sub's in-room frequency response.

For the cleanest lower bass sound you might consider having the 802N's and surrounds designated as "small" in the speaker setup. All this means is that at a certain frequency which you choose the lower bass plus the LFE bass plays from the sub only and all the frequencies above that frequency play from the mains.  Having the L&R set as "large" or "full range" means both the sub and the L&R will play the lower bass and IMO will tend to not be as clean and defined and sometimes have boomy tendencies or phase issues.  A good crossover choice to try for the L&R 802N's might be about 50-60Hz and 80-90Hz for the surrounds depending on how large they are. Again do not depend on the YPAO to get these setting correct. None of the auto room correction systems are infallible and many times they are off or way off.

Just some suggestions and food for thought.  


www.data-bass.com/systems





    

[roadrunner]

Sept 28, 2013 9:06:30 GMT -5 @chuckienut said:

Lmr, please no offense intended in my post.  I'm not sure of your past experience, the size of your room (very important) or your budget.

I see you have a superb and expensive speaker, the 802N, which was test measured down to -3dB's at 31Hz, excellent performance.  IMO the Polk subs are not up to a comparable level of performance relative to the B&W's.  This is not to degrade the Polks, they are just not at the same very high level of excellence.  I also see you have a medium priced AVR as your your pre-pro and maybe for extras channel amps.  The XPR-1's are superb for the 802N's.  I would in no way depend on the Yamaha's YPAO room correction system to set the output/gain or crossover of the sub.  A manual override is the only way to make sure the sub is not playing too loud or over powering the main speakers as perhaps it now is.  A manual main/sub setup will ensure you have an excellent blend between the sub and your mains.   If you have multiple seats or seating areas more than a single sub might be recommended.

The JL Audio Fathom f113 is a superb sub and would be an excellent but pricey (for my budget) addition to your system.  They are also pretty.  Several good alternatives from internet direct firms would be from Ryhtmik and  SVS.  The sealed models from these very highly regarded companies might be slightly better for music but the ported models will go lower and louder for HT and still very good for music.  See the F15HP or FV15HP from Ryhtmik.  See the PB-13Ultra or SB13-Ultra from SVS.  Another option would be the ULS-15 or VTF-15H from HSU.  
 
In the future you might consider upgrading your surround speakers and adding a center channel speaker with 3 more channels of power from Emotiva. Matching speakers (to the 802N) for the center and surrounds would be nice (B&W HTM2 and 804).  The Emotiva UMC-200 pre-pro or the future XMC-1 would be excellent for your sub due to the sophisticated sub quad parametric EQ, let alone the superior sound quality.  This will give you excellent flexibility for the sub's in-room frequency response.

For the cleanest lower bass sound you might consider having the 802N's and surrounds designated as "small" in the speaker setup. All this means is that at a certain frequency which you choose the lower bass plus the LFE bass plays from the sub only and all the frequencies above that frequency play from the mains.  Having the L&R set as "large" or "full range" means both the sub and the L&R will play the lower bass and IMO will tend to not be as clean and defined and sometimes have boomy tendencies or phase issues.  A good crossover choice to try for the L&R 802N's might be about 50-60Hz and 80-90Hz for the surrounds depending on how large they are. Again do not depend on the YPAO to get these setting correct. None of the auto room correction systems are infallible and many times they are off or way off.

Just some suggestions and food for thought.  


www.data-bass.com/systems





    

Chuckienut covers a lot of excellent things you can do to help improve the sound quality in your system. Another area that will help you tame your room is the speaker placement and calibration of your speakers. I have linked an earlier thread that does an excellent job of providing links to sources from some of the most useful information on speaker placement and how to manually calibrate your speakers. The first two posts in that thread contains the meat of the material you will want to concentrate on.

emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/309921/thread

[garbulky]

Sept 28, 2013 0:00:08 GMT -5 jmasterj said:

Question if your current space limits the placement of your sub, which might be the reason it's not performing correctly, and if "maybe you don't have it set up right" which could also be the problem as well, do you really think buying a different sub will correct that? That Micro Pro 3000 appears to be a decent sub. It sounds like you could spend the money and still end up with the same problem.

Agreed. Putting money at something that doesn't fix the placement problem isn't the solution IMO. Maybe there is someway to negotiate for different placement or simply try temporary placement while the fam is asleep to see if that is the problem.

[lmr]

No offense taken on any post. I am a noob who is looking for advice and my knowledge is severely limited when coming to home audio engineering. I read some great advice which would make me return when needing more shared truth and not hyperbole. I like the idea of a SigTech AEC-1000 and up grading the center channel. I think what got me wanting the JL was the talk of how it can move your pants legs while playing movies.My girlfriend felt it while waiting for me when bringing my speaker and turntable in.That said a lot to me. Please feel free to speak frank with me in future discussions. Thanks

[lmr]

my system

[Deleted]

Just a few misc comments that might help.


........ The pants leg movement is possible with even a large tower speaker.  I had a Altec Lansing with a very powerful 15" woofer that only went down to about 40Hz at -3dB's, not in the low sub range.  It moved a lot of air at high volumes and easily flap my pants legs.  Don't choose a sub based on that, it all depends on the source and volume.  The JL F113 is a great sub but somewhat expensive.

........ I think I might see your sub in the bottom right corner of the photo?  Photos of the rest of the room, satellites, any open areas to other rooms  and the dimensions of the room and ceiling height would help.

........ The L&R speakers need to be slightly ahead of the center speaker and the leading edge of the component cabinet (looks like that it is OK or close).  The center speaker would be even better on top of the cabinet, leading edge of center at the leading edge of the cabinet (or 1" more).  Having all three front speakers (LCR) with the tweeters close to the same height is desirable as is having them all voice/timbre matched (very important) (all have the same exact tweeter and perhaps the same midrange).

........ The right speaker is too close to the right side wall.  If possible, move the left speaker several inches to the left (even with the left edge of the wall that the TV is on), move the cabinet to the left about 4-6" so it is the same distance from the left speaker as it now is from the right speaker (maybe 2-3" away), move the right speaker to the left about 4-6" so it is the same distance away from the cabinet as the left speaker is. 

........ OK, so we have moved everything left slightly to get that right speaker away from the right wall.  If this you find possible then have the speakers facing straight ahead and not toed in, try this first.  Move the center slightly to the right on the presents shelf or the top of the cabinet so it is close to the middle of the TV, although this is not that necessary.  I know this will make the cabinet and speakers slightly off center to the TV screen.  The reason for this is to improve the sound.  If you cannot handle this due to your aesthetic preferences then try toeing in the L&R speakers slightly.

........ I would forget the SigTech AEC-1000 for now.  It is a very advanced component for a nube.  This and the built in room correction systems (Audyssey, EMO-Q, Yamaha YPAO, etc,) might sound great on paper but they are difficult to use correctly and get consistent results.  IMO a pre-pro like the Emo UMC-200 that includes a very sophisticated parametric EQ system (11 EQ's plus a 4 band sub EQ) is a very valuable addition along with perhaps the REW (Room EQ Wizard) software.

........ Subs that go loud and HT low are ported, big and heavy if you have the room.  The smaller or midsize usually sealed subs are excellent for music but not quite as low for HT and they are somewhat more expensive per performance, they need larger amps to offset the smaller size enclosure.

 

[garbulky]

Sept 29, 2013 9:02:49 GMT -5 lmr said:

No offense taken on any post. I am a noob who is looking for advice and my knowledge is severely limited when coming to home audio engineering. I read some great advice which would make me return when needing more shared truth and not hyperbole. I like the idea of a SigTech AEC-1000 and up grading the center channel. I think what got me wanting the JL was the talk of how it can move your pants legs while playing movies.My girlfriend felt it while waiting for me when bringing my speaker and turntable in.That said a lot to me. Please feel free to speak frank with me in future discussions. Thanks

Since you asked for advice, the best I can advice you for your setup is positioning. I have found positioning makes a way bigger difference than electronics and the second biggest difference is room treatments. These sound tedious but it's really the way to go IMO.

Positioning:
Try and move them around a bit. The position you have them isn't very condusive to sound quality especially for speakers of that caliber.
Move them away from the side walls, away from the wall at its back and in front of the plane of the cabinet/ rack.
Also experiment with
Toe in (experiment a lot!)
Distance from the speakers.
Distance between the speakers.
Remove all obstacles to the sound from the speakers to you - including, ottomans, side tables, coffee tables, side couches, etc.

Also because your speakers are so darn nice, definitely invest in room treatments and a bass trap.
Absolutely worth it imo. Room treatments don't have to be a wife's nightmare.
I would reccomend the thickest and largest of these ( several). You will get more value for your money out of these (and moving the speakers around) than whatever else you were thinking of.
www.atsacoustics.com/cat--ATS-Acoustic-Panels--100.html
They also have art room panels that look like paintings.
Bass traps:
www.atsacoustics.com/bass-traps.html

There's various ways to setup room treatments. But usually behind the speakers, at the center between the speakers, behind the couch, and at the first reflection point on the side.
FWIW, you don't have to do all of this to experience a difference. Currently I have just one panel and I experienced a difference in a pretty good room too. I am waiting to get a whole lot more. My friend has multiple and it's really improved his sound.