Tube Buffer Question

[zenithblue67bug]

I debated on where to post my question...I finally settled on the Newbie area, since I am a newbie to tube gear

So I am considering adding a tube buffer to my set up, most likely a YAQIN SD-CD3 just so I can experience what tubiness is all about and decide if i want to progress further down this path, and the cost of entry is very reasonable. I have never heard tube gear before and I am curious. My set up does double duty as HT and 2 channel and multi-channel music...so maybe that is triple duty . I have no space for a dedicated music only rig, and thats just the way it is for the foreseeable future.

I am confused on what is the best way to add the buffer, it seems like the easiest way would be to add it after my onkyo 809 avr (being used as a pre/pro only) and before my xpa-2, but this would make the buffer active on all sources, correct? I'd rather just have the buffer active when I am listening to music, but my problem is I have too many music sources. I use a sony cd changer, a denon 1611 bdp for SACD and DVD-A's (and of course blu-rays) and my computer for pandora and flac files. The sony cd changer is being slowly phased out as I convert my music cd's to flac, but I still have around 300 more cd's to go, so it is not going away any time soon.

Currently my connections are as follows - cd via toslink to avr, denon bpd 1611 via hdmi to avr and pc via hdmi to avr. So is there anyway possible to connect the buffer to use multiple sources? If so, how? Or should I just put it after the avr and before the xpa-2? I a really not too keen on the second approach as I don't think I want the tube sound to affect movies and tv. I have also researched for tube pre-amps that offer a HT bypass feature, but unfortunately those seem waaayyy outta my price range for now. My next major purchase will be an XSP-1 preamp and that has HT bypass, but I wont be getting it until early next year at the soonest.

Any advice is appreciated.

[mgbpuff]

Since you do not seem to have a good separate DAC, how about something like the Minimax Tube DAC. It's a multiple input D/A with selectable tube output. You could route several 2 channel digital sources into it and select direct or tube buffered output which then you would route to a direct input of your avr. At $1100, it's a little steep, but it's a good unit.

www.morningstaraudio.com/shop/category.asp?catid=6

Since this is an Emotiva site, a DAC1 or XDA-2 and a tube buffer would give you the same thing (except for tube output selectivity - you would be stuck with tube only) in two boxes and maybe cheaper.

[Chuck Elliot]

There is also the "old school" possibility of adding the tube buffer to the record-out/record-in loop of the AVR.
This is the VCR/DVR connections on the 809.

[zenithblue67bug]

Oct 2, 2013 7:49:01 GMT -5 mgbpuff said:

Since you do not seem to have a good separate DAC, how about something like the Minimax Tube DAC. It's a multiple input D/A with selectable tube output. You could route several 2 channel digital sources into it and select direct or tube buffered output which then you would route to a direct input of your avr. At $1100, it's a little steep, but it's a good unit.

www.morningstaraudio.com/shop/category.asp?catid=6

Since this is an Emotiva site, a DAC1 or XDA-2 and a tube buffer would give you the same thing (except for tube output selectivity - you would be stuck with tube only) in two boxes and maybe cheaper.

Thanks for the reply, I think before I shell out that much $$$ I should see if I even like tube sound. Definitely something I may look into in the future.

[zenithblue67bug]

Oct 2, 2013 8:48:33 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

There is also the "old school" possibility of adding the tube buffer to the record-out/record-in loop of the AVR.
This is the VCR/DVR connections on the 809.

Explain this to me like I am a 10 year old....how would I do that?

[Chuck Elliot]

Oct 2, 2013 9:48:22 GMT -5 zenithblue67bug said:

Oct 2, 2013 8:48:33 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

There is also the "old school" possibility of adding the tube buffer to the record-out/record-in loop of the AVR.
This is the VCR/DVR connections on the 809.

Explain this to me like I am a 10 year old....how would I do that?

Ok!

In the old days any receiver would have Tape-Out and Tape-In RCA jacks. You would also have a Tape Monitor button on the front.

Any source selection would feed the Tape-Out (minus the volume control).

The Tape Monitor button would override any source selection and take its input from the Tape-In (with volume control).

What was going on in the first half with your source selection to Tape-Out was not changed.

So, you could run an equalizer in your system by patching it between the Tape In/Out and always have the Tape Monitor Button active.

How this relates to the VCR/DVR Onkyo jacks is an exercise you will have to determine. Perhaps someone else knows. I've never used it on my 808.

[KeithL]

Unfortunately, it's not nearly that simple.

Modern AVRs and pre/pros don't HAVE "old style" tape monitor loops (aka "processor loops"). Most of the audio comes in as digital, gets converted to analog (which includes decoding it), and is then sent on to the power amp. It wouldn't even be possible to put a processor loop on the digital part of the signal path, and I've never seen anybody put one on the other side (not with consumer equipment). You frequently see "two channel mix down outputs" on pre/pros, but they are only outputs.

I'd love to suggest that you buy an external DAC (like the XDA-2) and then add the tube buffer to it - but I suspect that would blow your budget (although, if you decided you didn't like tubes, you could still keep the DAC )

You most certainly could use a tube preamp or buffer that had a bypass feature, but I think the best suggestion was to consider a tube DAC. If you're looking for one in the same budget range as the Yaqin, there's a company called Maverick Audio that sells on eBay - they make a "high end" tube DAC for about $300, and a "lower end" one for about $220 - that even includes an analog input and both "tube" and "non-tube" outputs. I've never heard the unit in person, and so I don't know how good it sounds otherwise, but it offers a great set of options for "trying out tubes", and they do generally get decent reviews.

Here's how you could hook it up to get the most options - assuming you bought the $220 "D1" DAC with the analog input.

Take the ANALOG output of your Denon 1611 and connect it to the ANALOG input of the DAC (that way you can play SACDs and DVD-A's through it).
Take a DIGITAL output from your Sony CD changer (assuming it has one) and connect it to a digital input on the DAC (that way you can play CDs through it).
Take a USB output from your computer and connect it to the USB input of the DAC.

NOW, connect the TUBE output of the DAC to one input on your AVR, and connect the NORMAL output to a different input on your AVR.

You will now basically be able to play everything through the DAC, and choose whether to listen to the tube or non-tube version of the output by picking the appropriate input on your AVR.
(Note that you WILL be limited in sound quality both by the DAC, which is inexpensive, and by your Onkyo AVR - which looks like it lacks a Direct Mode to allow you to bypass its internal processing.
In this case that probably means that you wouldn't get much benefit out of a really good DAC anyway - unless you connect it direct to the amp and bypass the Onkyo.)

I would also caution you, before you start, that tube equipment ADDS coloration to the sound (especially when you're ADDING a tube buffer). My main caution to you at this point is that different tube equipment can sound rather different. Even if you happen to like the way a certain piece of tube equipment makes your music sound, don't assume a different one will sound the same (like soft drinks, there are many similarities, but also many differences). Specifically, there are certain types of coloration that are produced by most tube equipment, but the AMOUNT in which they are present range from subtle to "yikes!"   (This is especially true for "buffers" since, arguably, a preamp isn't specifically intended to alter the sound, but the sole purpose of a "tube buffer" IS to alter the sound.)

Oct 2, 2013 8:48:33 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

There is also the "old school" possibility of adding the tube buffer to the record-out/record-in loop of the AVR.
This is the VCR/DVR connections on the 809.

[zenithblue67bug]

Oct 2, 2013 10:27:06 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Unfortunately, it's not nearly that simple.

Modern AVRs and pre/pros don't HAVE "old style" tape monitor loops (aka "processor loops"). Most of the audio comes in as digital, gets converted to analog (which includes decoding it), and is then sent on to the power amp. It wouldn't even be possible to put a processor loop on the digital part of the signal path, and I've never seen anybody put one on the other side (not with consumer equipment). You frequently see "two channel mix down outputs" on pre/pros, but they are only outputs.

I'd love to suggest that you buy an external DAC (like the XDA-2) and then add the tube buffer to it - but I suspect that would blow your budget (although, if you decided you didn't like tubes, you could still keep the DAC )

You most certainly could use a tube preamp or buffer that had a bypass feature, but I think the best suggestion was to consider a tube DAC. If you're looking for one in the same budget range as the Yaqin, there's a company called Maverick Audio that sells on eBay - they make a "high end" tube DAC for about $300, and a "lower end" one for about $220 - that even includes an analog input and both "tube" and "non-tube" outputs. I've never heard the unit in person, and so I don't know how good it sounds otherwise, but it offers a great set of options for "trying out tubes", and they do generally get decent reviews.

Here's how you could hook it up to get the most options - assuming you bought the $220 "D1" DAC with the analog input.

Take the ANALOG output of your Denon 1611 and connect it to the ANALOG input of the DAC (that way you can play SACDs and DVD-A's through it).
Take a DIGITAL output from your Sony CD changer (assuming it has one) and connect it to a digital input on the DAC (that way you can play CDs through it).
Take a USB output from your computer and connect it to the USB input of the DAC.

NOW, connect the TUBE output of the DAC to one input on your AVR, and connect the NORMAL output to a different input on your AVR.

You will now basically be able to play everything through the DAC, and choose whether to listen to the tube or non-tube version of the output by picking the appropriate input on your AVR.
(Note that you WILL be limited in sound quality both by the DAC, which is inexpensive, and by your Onkyo AVR - which looks like it lacks a Direct Mode to allow you to bypass its internal processing.
In this case that probably means that you wouldn't get much benefit out of a really good DAC anyway - unless you connect it direct to the amp and bypass the Onkyo.)

I would also caution you, before you start, that tube equipment ADDS coloration to the sound (especially when you're ADDING a tube buffer). My main caution to you at this point is that different tube equipment can sound rather different. Even if you happen to like the way a certain piece of tube equipment makes your music sound, don't assume a different one will sound the same (like soft drinks, there are many similarities, but also many differences). Specifically, there are certain types of coloration that are produced by most tube equipment, but the AMOUNT in which they are present range from subtle to "yikes!"   (This is especially true for "buffers" since, arguably, a preamp isn't specifically intended to alter the sound, but the sole purpose of a "tube buffer" IS to alter the sound.)

Oct 2, 2013 8:48:33 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

There is also the "old school" possibility of adding the tube buffer to the record-out/record-in loop of the AVR.
This is the VCR/DVR connections on the 809.

Wow thanks Keith, I think you have solved my question. Two things though, the onkyo 809 does indeed have a direct and a pure direct mode....and I am fully aware that tubes alter the sound. I wish to explore these colorations...just a little...to see if it is something I want to get into.

Now I just need to decide to go the yaqin + xda-2 route or the maverick audio dac route....I might go this route for now because it is a cheaper way to test the tube waters....but the xda-2 is a good peice of kit and would probably be something I hang onto for a long while...decisions....

[zenithblue67bug]

Oct 2, 2013 10:27:06 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Unfortunately, it's not nearly that simple.

Modern AVRs and pre/pros don't HAVE "old style" tape monitor loops (aka "processor loops"). Most of the audio comes in as digital, gets converted to analog (which includes decoding it), and is then sent on to the power amp. It wouldn't even be possible to put a processor loop on the digital part of the signal path, and I've never seen anybody put one on the other side (not with consumer equipment). You frequently see "two channel mix down outputs" on pre/pros, but they are only outputs.

I'd love to suggest that you buy an external DAC (like the XDA-2) and then add the tube buffer to it - but I suspect that would blow your budget (although, if you decided you didn't like tubes, you could still keep the DAC )

You most certainly could use a tube preamp or buffer that had a bypass feature, but I think the best suggestion was to consider a tube DAC. If you're looking for one in the same budget range as the Yaqin, there's a company called Maverick Audio that sells on eBay - they make a "high end" tube DAC for about $300, and a "lower end" one for about $220 - that even includes an analog input and both "tube" and "non-tube" outputs. I've never heard the unit in person, and so I don't know how good it sounds otherwise, but it offers a great set of options for "trying out tubes", and they do generally get decent reviews.

Here's how you could hook it up to get the most options - assuming you bought the $220 "D1" DAC with the analog input.

Take the ANALOG output of your Denon 1611 and connect it to the ANALOG input of the DAC (that way you can play SACDs and DVD-A's through it).
Take a DIGITAL output from your Sony CD changer (assuming it has one) and connect it to a digital input on the DAC (that way you can play CDs through it).
Take a USB output from your computer and connect it to the USB input of the DAC.

NOW, connect the TUBE output of the DAC to one input on your AVR, and connect the NORMAL output to a different input on your AVR.

You will now basically be able to play everything through the DAC, and choose whether to listen to the tube or non-tube version of the output by picking the appropriate input on your AVR.
(Note that you WILL be limited in sound quality both by the DAC, which is inexpensive, and by your Onkyo AVR - which looks like it lacks a Direct Mode to allow you to bypass its internal processing.
In this case that probably means that you wouldn't get much benefit out of a really good DAC anyway - unless you connect it direct to the amp and bypass the Onkyo.)

I would also caution you, before you start, that tube equipment ADDS coloration to the sound (especially when you're ADDING a tube buffer). My main caution to you at this point is that different tube equipment can sound rather different. Even if you happen to like the way a certain piece of tube equipment makes your music sound, don't assume a different one will sound the same (like soft drinks, there are many similarities, but also many differences). Specifically, there are certain types of coloration that are produced by most tube equipment, but the AMOUNT in which they are present range from subtle to "yikes!"   (This is especially true for "buffers" since, arguably, a preamp isn't specifically intended to alter the sound, but the sole purpose of a "tube buffer" IS to alter the sound.)

Oct 2, 2013 8:48:33 GMT -5 Chuck Elliot said:

There is also the "old school" possibility of adding the tube buffer to the record-out/record-in loop of the AVR.
This is the VCR/DVR connections on the 809.

Wow thanks Keith, I think you have solved my question. Two things though, the onkyo 809 does indeed have a direct and a pure direct mode....and I am fully aware that tubes alter the sound. I wish to explore these colorations...just a little...to see if it is something I want to get into.

Now I just need to decide to go the yaqin + xda-2 route or the maverick audio dac route....I might go this route for now because it is a cheaper way to test the tube waters....but the xda-2 is a good peice of kit and would probably be something I hang onto for a long while...decisions....

[emovac]

My tube buffer is linked between my DAC and integrated amp (via XLR). My DAC is also connected direct to my integrated amp (via RCA) so I can activate or not activate the tube buffer.