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Post by audiosyndrome on Dec 23, 2013 11:37:46 GMT -5
Forgive them father .....
Once again, read my previous posts on why biwire "CAN WORK". Canare 411S used to biwire will NOT work (again see previous posts).
Happy holidays to all.
Russ
BSEE, MSEE
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Post by wolffcub on Dec 23, 2013 12:45:18 GMT -5
Canar will work just so others don't get the impression that using that wire will make your speakers inoperable.
Not sure if you were commenting on my post of just stating a something to all others reading this thread but that's why I'm running two separate runs of canare for my biwire config. Highs and lows are fully separated and not in the same sleeve.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Dec 23, 2013 19:13:40 GMT -5
Two separate runs of 411s should work fine.
Russ
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 23, 2013 19:38:50 GMT -5
Well giggle away at me youse scurvy louts, but I plan to bi-wire AND leave the jumpers on at the speaker ends! WHY? Because this way the resistance of the speaker wire IS cut in half, and the amplifier's damping factor is increased. Bi-wiring alone gives the SAME resistance as single-wiring the speaker with the jumpers in place. Why buy double wires if not to reduce series resistance?
The only way to do better than what I suggest without changing the wire length is to either use fatter wires or run more of them.
Boomzilla
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Post by yves on Dec 23, 2013 19:41:40 GMT -5
I will shortly have a xpa-100 amp feeding each speaker in my system. Because I am an awkward guy and love pissing people off i will also be bi-wiring up my speakers. The xpa-100 Amps also have a split or dual outputs on the rear and my plan is to run 2 separate canare 4s11 runs from each amp to each speaker. Each Canare will have the reds and whites divided and then terminated into 2 banana plugs on each end. I have always followed and felt the same about YVES statement above about electrical impedance. Granted you might not or actually hear the difference but bi-wiring or passive bi-amping cant hurt anything IMO. Still have to say having 2 runs of canare to each speaker will still look awesome lol. I am quite positive that, in *some* systems, bi-wiring *can* result in a slight deterioration of the sound. So I don't think your conclusion that bi-wiring can't hurt anything is necessarily always correct. As for bi-amping, I won't deny that putting the crossovers *before* the amps can provide certain advantages in terms of sonic performance. However, IMO the quality of the speakers matters a lot more than bi-amping. Also IMO, banana plugs and spades are slightly detrimental to the sound.[ I prefer the bare wire connection method instead]. |
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Post by novisnick on Dec 23, 2013 19:48:14 GMT -5
Boom, are you saying that it could/will help SQ if I run two sets of wires from my mono amp instead of one set?
Nick
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 23, 2013 19:58:34 GMT -5
Well, novisnick, if we accept the premise that any series resistance from speaker wires is bad, then minimizing such resistance is good. The ways to minimize such resistance are two:
1. Use shorter wires
2. Use thicker wires
Using multiple sets of wires is the same thing as #2.
If your speakers are 8-ohms or more, then it probably doesn't matter. If your speakers are 4-ohms or less (many are, these days), then it might indeed help the SQ.
Boom
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 20:09:19 GMT -5
Well giggle away at me youse scurvy louts, but I plan to bi-wire AND leave the jumpers on at the speaker ends! WHY? Because this way the resistance of the speaker wire IS cut in half, and the amplifier's damping factor is increased. Bi-wiring alone gives the SAME resistance as single-wiring the speaker with the jumpers in place. Why buy double wires if not to reduce series resistance? The only way to do better than what I suggest without changing the wire length is to either use fatter wires or run more of them. Boomzilla Hey Boom, that's what I've got set up now with my new XPA-100s (Wolffcub, they do sound amazing). As they say, 'Resistance is futile"...  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 23, 2013 20:12:31 GMT -5
I noticed a difference when I went from 8-foot wires to 1-foot "jumper cables" (8-gauge) between my Crown stereo amp and my DefTech speakers. MUCH better bass control!
I'm about to add a second set of 10-gauge between my XPR-2 and my Paradigms. I like the graphic, by the way!
Merry Christmas!
Boomzilla
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Post by lionear on Dec 23, 2013 23:16:25 GMT -5
I have to agree with yves. My experience is that the high frequencies are improved. My theory is that bi-wiring prevents the woofer from stealing energy from the tweeter, especially if the woofer impedance drops a lot at certain frequencies.
Arnie Nudell (of Infinity and Genesis fame) once said that you can even try different brands of cable for the tweeter and the woofer. His point was to just try stuff out and see what sounds better for you.
Oh yes, the Anti-Cable Company says that people have referred to "bi-wiring and using jumpers" as "parallel bi-wiring". I've never tried that.
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Post by novisnick on Dec 23, 2013 23:33:11 GMT -5
Well, novisnick, if we accept the premise that any series resistance from speaker wires is bad, then minimizing such resistance is good. The ways to minimize such resistance are two: 1. Use shorter wires 2. Use thicker wires Using multiple sets of wires is the same thing as #2. If your speakers are 8-ohms or more, then it probably doesn't matter. If your speakers are 4-ohms or less (many are, these days), then it might indeed help the SQ. Boom Thanks boom. Nick |
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Post by deltadube on Dec 24, 2013 4:07:23 GMT -5
Well giggle away at me youse scurvy louts, but I plan to bi-wire AND leave the jumpers on at the speaker ends! WHY? Because this way the resistance of the speaker wire IS cut in half, and the amplifier's damping factor is increased. Bi-wiring alone gives the SAME resistance as single-wiring the speaker with the jumpers in place. Why buy double wires if not to reduce series resistance? The only way to do better than what I suggest without changing the wire length is to either use fatter wires or run more of them. Boomzilla warning do not leave your jumpers on do not do it!!!!! and bi wire.. Boomer!!!! merry christmas |
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hemster
Global Moderator 
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
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Post by hemster on Dec 24, 2013 4:17:58 GMT -5
Well giggle away at me youse scurvy louts, but I plan to bi-wire AND leave the jumpers on at the speaker ends! WHY? Because this way the resistance of the speaker wire IS cut in half, and the amplifier's damping factor is increased. Bi-wiring alone gives the SAME resistance as single-wiring the speaker with the jumpers in place. Why buy double wires if not to reduce series resistance? The only way to do better than what I suggest without changing the wire length is to either use fatter wires or run more of them. Boomzilla IMHO, leaving the jumpers in or removing them makes no difference in bi-wiring. Bi-amping OTOH, is a completely different story and the jumpers must be removed to avoid shorting the 2 amps. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 24, 2013 6:10:00 GMT -5
+1 Hemster - For any style of biamplification, the jumpers must, repeat MUST be removed to avoid amplifier damage. For bi-wiring, there can be theoretical differences between jumpers on & off:
JUMPERS OFF:
ADVANTAGE: Back EMF from the woofer is unable to interfere with tweeter & tweeter crossover circuitry (per KiethL)
DISADVANTAGE: Wire impedance remains the same as with single-wiring
JUMPERS ON:
ADVANTAGE: Wire impedance is half what it might be with single wires thus improving damping factor (not a significant advantage unless speaker impedance is <4-ohms)
DISADVANTAGE: Back EMF from the woofer may (or may not) slightly impact the tweeter & tweeter crossover circuitry (the same as it might with single wiring, per KeithL)
Despite what Paradigm apparently said in one of their owners manuals a long time ago, there is no danger to the amplifier or to the speakers from leaving the jumpers on the speaker terminals while bi wiring.
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Post by audiofile on Dec 24, 2013 8:11:23 GMT -5
Well, given the design of the rails on the XPA-1, there doesn't seem to be an advantage to bi-wiring with 10 ga wire at both ends. I will try the jumpers on/jumpers off thing with a bi-wire arrangement at the speaker end, though.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 24, 2013 10:20:33 GMT -5
You probably won't hear any difference. If you do, it'll probably be subtle. IMHO, bi-wiring (with or without jumpers) is completely optional and won't make as big a difference as positioning your speakers well in the room.
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Post by audiosyndrome on Dec 24, 2013 11:23:32 GMT -5
Bi-wiring primer,
From Physics, an electrical current flowing in a conductor produces a magnetic field (the FBI rule where F is force, B is magnetic field strength in Gauss, and I is current). Therefore, the current flowing in our speaker cables produces a magnetic field.
This magnetic field varies in accordance with the signal being delivered to the speakers. In particular, the magnetic field of the bass frequencies interacts with the magnetic field of the high frequencies (known as intermodulation distortion IM). Bi-wiring can eliminate this distortion.
How you might ask? By physically separating the magnetic fields of the high and low frequency current. This separation is done in two steps.
1- removing the links between the two pairs of speaker binding posts, thereby totally separating the mid/woofer crossover from the tweeter crossover. Since I=E/R, or more correctly E/Z, and since Z is different for each leg of the crossover, a different current flows in each speaker cable.
2- running two sets of speaker cables to the (now separated) binding posts. The two sets of cables must be separated by an inch or two minimum.
Step 1 directs the low frequencies to the mid/woofer crossover and directs the high frequencies to the tweeter crossover (electrical separation).
Step 2 prevents the magnetic fields from modulating each other as they are physically separated.
Note that Step 2 is just as important as Step 1. If the cables are not physically separated bi-wiring will not work. Two cables in one bundle will not work.
Bi-wiring has nothing to do with skin effect, wire gauge, current in/ current out, etc., only IM distortion due to the magnetic field effect.
Note that Audioquest in their advertising for their Gibraltar (bi-wire) cable state that "it provides almost ideal isolation between the magnetic fields of the bass and treble current". Almost ideal because both conductors are not separated from each other.
Also note that Mapleshade and Insound recommend speaker cables be eight-feet or longer to eliminate the back EMF problem; a real problem.
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Post by Boomzilla on Dec 24, 2013 13:27:35 GMT -5
Makes sense to me.
That said, there's no harm in DOUBLING the wires to the woofer crossover to reduce series resistance. I doubt that the midrange/tweeter section draws enough current to care about the wire resistance.
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