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Post by audiofile on Dec 20, 2013 15:19:37 GMT -5
I recently purchased a pair of Aerial Acoustic 8 speakers. These speakers are set up to be bi-wired and I currently use a set of X-Series speaker wires with a pair of jumpers.  These speakers are set up to be bi-wired and will not work without all 4 binding posts connected.  Currently I use a pair of Emotiva's X-Series speaker wires with jumpers. I want to upgrade my speaker wires for a true bi-wire pair with dedicated conductors to each pair of binding posts at the back of the speaker. I read the XPA-1 manual (yup, sometimes that helps a lot!) and it states, "When using the XPA-1 to 'bi-wire' a speaker, use both negative and positive terminals to connect to the corresponding negative and positive terminals on your speakers." In reading this I assume they are saying that you have 4 spades (or bananas) at each end of the cable set and that each connection (+ & - X 2) are in phase with one another. So any idea why this is the recommended or required connection scheme? Any reason why using a single pair of terminals at the amp end and bi-wired connection at the speaker end wouldn't work? Or is is a "quality of sound" reproduction recommendation vs. an absolute "you gotta do it this way" thing? |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 20, 2013 15:39:51 GMT -5
If you are using a 4 conductor cable like say Canare 4S11, then yes you can just tie the two positives and negative wires on one end (amp) while breaking out all four on the other (speaker). It will not affect the sound. After all Bi-wire is just another way of spelling BUY WIRE.  |
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Post by jlafrenz on Dec 20, 2013 15:43:27 GMT -5
Nice towers.
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Post by brubacca on Dec 20, 2013 15:48:34 GMT -5
People have opinions as to why you should or shouldn't bi-wire. I have my own opinion and will stay out of that argument.
From a technical standpoint you can have the wires connected to one terminal at your amp and two at you speaker. The XPA-1 amp makes it easy on you. You can buy 2 pairs of standard speaker cables and since you have two sets of terminals is will just work for you. Inside the amp those terminal are tied together so it doesn't matter if you put 2 speaker wires on one terminal of one speaker wire per terminal.
Good luck.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Dec 20, 2013 17:39:05 GMT -5
On the XPA-1, the two Minus terminals are electrically the same point, as are the two Plus terminals; we just provided two separate sets of binding posts as a convenience. I recently purchased a pair of Aerial Acoustic 8 speakers. These speakers are set up to be bi-wired and I currently use a set of X-Series speaker wires with a pair of jumpers. These speakers are set up to be bi-wired and will not work without all 4 binding posts connected. Currently I use a pair of Emotiva's X-Series speaker wires with jumpers. I want to upgrade my speaker wires for a true bi-wire pair with dedicated conductors to each pair of binding posts at the back of the speaker. I read the XPA-1 manual (yup, sometimes that helps a lot!) and it states, "When using the XPA-1 to 'bi-wire' a speaker, use both negative and positive terminals to connect to the corresponding negative and positive terminals on your speakers." In reading this I assume they are saying that you have 4 spades (or bananas) at each end of the cable set and that each connection (+ & - X 2) are in phase with one another. So any idea why this is the recommended or required connection scheme? Any reason why using a single pair of terminals at the amp end and bi-wired connection at the speaker end wouldn't work? Or is is a "quality of sound" reproduction recommendation vs. an absolute "you gotta do it this way" thing? |
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Post by audiofile on Dec 20, 2013 19:28:25 GMT -5
So what I gather from the responses is that using one set of terminals at the amp end and bi-wiring at the speaker end will work just fine.
So I wonder why Emotiva would say what they did (quoted above) in the manual. Seems slightly at odds with conventional wisdom.
In any event I am gonna get myself a pair of new cables with bi-wires at the speaker end and give 'em a try.
Thanks for the input!
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Post by audiofile on Dec 20, 2013 19:29:36 GMT -5
If you are using a 4 conductor cable like say Canare 4S11, then yes you can just tie the two positives and negative wires on one end (amp) while breaking out all four on the other (speaker). It will not affect the sound. After all Bi-wire is just another way of spelling BUY WIRE. hehehehe...good point, bud. Thanks! |
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Post by audiofile on Dec 20, 2013 19:30:49 GMT -5
Thank you. They are a significant upgrade from my previous speaker pair and I am VERY happy to have them in my home. |
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Post by audiofile on Dec 20, 2013 19:34:19 GMT -5
People have opinions as to why you should or shouldn't bi-wire. I have my own opinion and will stay out of that argument. From a technical standpoint you can have the wires connected to one terminal at your amp and two at you speaker. The XPA-1 amp makes it easy on you. You can buy 2 pairs of standard speaker cables and since you have two sets of terminals is will just work for you. Inside the amp those terminal are tied together so it doesn't matter if you put 2 speaker wires on one terminal of one speaker wire per terminal. Good luck. That was my line of thinking. The binding post / output circuit is split behind the case but eventually both sides come back together on the amp rail so my thought was having two sets of cables or a dual conductor per side set was not really necessary. Thanks for the input! |
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Post by audiofile on Dec 20, 2013 19:35:47 GMT -5
On the XPA-1, the two Minus terminals are electrically the same point, as are the two Plus terminals; we just provided two separate sets of binding posts as a convenience. Perfect! I won't need 4 spades at each end of the cables then. Thanks! |
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Post by repeetavx on Dec 20, 2013 21:27:39 GMT -5
Having two sets of outputs on a monoblock is so that you can use two sets of speaker wires with banana plugs at both ends. Simply a duplicate pair of terminals for the sake of convenience.
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Post by jefft51 on Dec 20, 2013 22:31:21 GMT -5
snip... I read the XPA-1 manual (yup, sometimes that helps a lot!) and it states, "When using the XPA-1 to 'bi-wire' a speaker, use both negative and positive terminals to connect to the corresponding negative and positive terminals on your speakers." I think this is just saying how you can bi-wire (for convenience) and maybe warning you to not cross the streams. You don't want to hook one out of phase or you will be shorting out the amp. |
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Post by sahmen on Dec 20, 2013 22:38:03 GMT -5
If you are using a 4 conductor cable like say Canare 4S11, then yes you can just tie the two positives and negative wires on one end (amp) while breaking out all four on the other (speaker). It will not affect the sound. After all Bi-wire is just another way of spelling BUY WIRE. Bi-wire==> BUY WIRE? OKAY, I would normally be laughing at the skepticism or (cynicism) implied in the statement about the audio benefits of "bi/buy" -wiring, were I not also "guilty" of bi-wiring any speakers I own that provide the room for that... Are those "benefits" really a placebo-type of illusion, as the skepticism seems to imply? |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 20, 2013 23:42:56 GMT -5
If you are using a 4 conductor cable like say Canare 4S11, then yes you can just tie the two positives and negative wires on one end (amp) while breaking out all four on the other (speaker). It will not affect the sound. After all Bi-wire is just another way of spelling BUY WIRE. Bi-wire==> BUY WIRE? OKAY, I would normally be laughing at the skepticism or (cynicism) implied in the statement about the audio benefits of "bi/buy" -wiring, were I not also "guilty" of bi-wiring any speakers I own that provide the room for that... Are those "benefits" really a placebo-type of illusion, as the skepticism seems to imply? It was a play on words but I speak from experience. I actually have bi-wire/ampable speakers. (owned a few) I also have Canare wire. (I got a good deal on them) I tried passive bi-wire and heard no difference. Of course like everything else your mileage may vary and it is a cheap (unless you buy expensive wire) thing to try so you can hear for yourself. Being from an engineering background, I just don't see (or hear) the science behind it. But at least I did give it a try and didn't just blindly say it doesn't work. It just didn't for me. |
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Post by deltadube on Dec 21, 2013 2:39:43 GMT -5
So what I gather from the responses is that using one set of terminals at the amp end and bi-wiring at the speaker end will work just fine. So I wonder why Emotiva would say what they did (quoted above) in the manual. Seems slightly at odds with conventional wisdom. In any event I am gonna get myself a pair of new cables with bi-wires at the speaker end and give 'em a try. Thanks for the input! why buy the quad cable when you are 1/2 way there with emo cable if you want to bi wire your speakers.. I don't believe you will hear a difference myself.. just double up your emo cables.. put one set on the blacks, the other set on the reds at the amp and the speaker!!! works really well with the xpa 1 binding post.. so the cables don't have to have that massive center fold spread.. cheers |
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Post by yves on Dec 21, 2013 7:23:41 GMT -5
Being from an engineering background, I just don't see (or hear) the science behind it. It's simple highschool physics. An analog audio signal is not a DC current. What that means is there's not just electrical resistance, but also electrical reactance. Both are measured in ohms, and both are part of what's called electrical impedance, which is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied. As a result, if you perform your circuit analysis of mono-wiring schemes versus bi-wiring schemes correctly, you will find that they are not electrically equivalent. The opposition that the conductors between the low frequency crossover network and the high frequency network present to the electrical signal is not the same. Please also note, this is not just due to the fact these conductors do not measure the same length / are made out of different materials, but is also due to the simple fact they are connected to the power amp in a completely different order. In a mono-wiring scheme, this order is low frequency crossover network -> high frequency network, in parallell with low frequency network -> speaker wire -> amp -> speaker wire -> high frequency crossover network, whereas, in a bi-wiring scheme, this order is low frequency crossover network -> speaker wire -> amp -> speaker wire -> high frequency crossover network, in parallell with jack nothing. Therefore, the back-EMF that is caused by the woofer, and that comes out of the low frequency crossover network, will be different upon entering the high frequency crossover network. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Dec 21, 2013 9:16:44 GMT -5
Being from an engineering background, I just don't see (or hear) the science behind it. It's simple highschool physics. An analog audio signal is not a DC current. What that means is there's not just electrical resistance, but also electrical reactance. Both are measured in ohms, and both are part of what's called electrical impedance, which is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied. As a result, if you perform your circuit analysis of mono-wiring schemes versus bi-wiring schemes correctly, you will find that they are not electrically equivalent. The opposition that the conductors between the low frequency crossover network and the high frequency network present to the electrical signal is not the same. Please also note, this is not just due to the fact these conductors do not measure the same length / are made out of different materials, but is also due to the simple fact they are connected to the power amp in a completely different order. In a mono-wiring scheme, this order is low frequency crossover network -> high frequency network, in parallell with low frequency network -> speaker wire -> amp -> speaker wire -> high frequency crossover network, whereas, in a bi-wiring scheme, this order is low frequency crossover network -> speaker wire -> amp -> speaker wire -> high frequency crossover network, in parallell with jack nothing. Therefore, the back-EMF that is caused by the woofer, and that comes out of the low frequency crossover network, will be different upon entering the high frequency crossover network. When you do the actual math, the changes are there mathematically but well below the human threshold of hearing. We are dealing with very low frequencies here Hz vs MHz where then we can start talking about meaningful differences. |
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Post by yves on Dec 21, 2013 13:42:42 GMT -5
It's simple highschool physics. An analog audio signal is not a DC current. What that means is there's not just electrical resistance, but also electrical reactance. Both are measured in ohms, and both are part of what's called electrical impedance, which is the measure of the opposition that a circuit presents to a current when a voltage is applied. As a result, if you perform your circuit analysis of mono-wiring schemes versus bi-wiring schemes correctly, you will find that they are not electrically equivalent. The opposition that the conductors between the low frequency crossover network and the high frequency network present to the electrical signal is not the same. Please also note, this is not just due to the fact these conductors do not measure the same length / are made out of different materials, but is also due to the simple fact they are connected to the power amp in a completely different order. In a mono-wiring scheme, this order is low frequency crossover network -> high frequency network, in parallell with low frequency network -> speaker wire -> amp -> speaker wire -> high frequency crossover network, whereas, in a bi-wiring scheme, this order is low frequency crossover network -> speaker wire -> amp -> speaker wire -> high frequency crossover network, in parallell with jack nothing. Therefore, the back-EMF that is caused by the woofer, and that comes out of the low frequency crossover network, will be different upon entering the high frequency crossover network. When you do the actual math, the changes are there mathematically but well below the human threshold of hearing. We are dealing with very low frequencies here Hz vs MHz where then we can start talking about meaningful differences. You very clearly don't understand anything much about the thresholds of human hearing. In some systems the difference can be audible, but if it's audible then it isn't necessarily always an improvement, whereas in most systems the difference is inaudible. Bi-wire is try wire. Mono-wire without try bi-wire is know no wire. |
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Post by audiofile on Dec 21, 2013 14:14:26 GMT -5
Well, since I need both sets of binding posts engaged at the speaker end I'll do one of two or three things:
1. Use a standard cable set up with jumpers at the speaker. This is how it is hooked up now.
2. Use a standard cable set up at the amp end and bi-wire at the speaker end.
3. Bi-wire both ends.
I have an opportunity to secure a set of cables configured like #2 on approval, which means I can use them and return them if I don't like them.
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Post by wolffcub on Dec 23, 2013 10:17:50 GMT -5
I will shortly have a xpa-100 amp feeding each speaker in my system. Because I am an awkward guy and love pissing people off i will also be bi-wiring up my speakers. The xpa-100 Amps also have a split or dual outputs on the rear and my plan is to run 2 separate canare 4s11 runs from each amp to each speaker. Each Canare will have the reds and whites divided and then terminated into 2 banana plugs on each end. I have always followed and felt the same about YVES statement above about electrical impedance. Granted you might not or actually hear the difference but bi-wiring or passive bi-amping cant hurt anything IMO. Still have to say having 2 runs of canare to each speaker will still look awesome lol.
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