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Post by miata57 on Jan 16, 2014 0:00:04 GMT -5
Hi to all
I just purchased the ERC-3, and it has about 20 hours of play on it. When I switch back to my ERC-1, I get more bottom end and room presence
The ERC-3 (so far) has a wider sound stage but can be a bit harsh when there is lots of treble and the ERC-1 has really been tough to beat.
Does a CD player require a break-in of so many hours to sound better?
Thx
Howie
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 16, 2014 0:12:51 GMT -5
I've got about 100 hours on my ERC-3 and it sounded fantastic straight out of the box and it still sounds fantastic now. My ears (with my speakers, my equipment and in my room) can't detect any change.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by jedinite24 on Jan 16, 2014 0:27:27 GMT -5
When I had an ERC-1 I played the Isotek refresher CD on repeat for close to 14 days straight for 24/7 without listening to it. When I was done I gave it a critical listen after. Normally most with most audio equipment or cable I read that it takes about 200 to 300 hours to settle in. I'll let the piece of equipment play for days on end and then listen rather than go through the roller coaster ride of break-in. YMMV though.
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Post by sahmen on Jan 16, 2014 0:32:43 GMT -5
Lol! "My ears, my speakers, my equipment in my room" often seems to translate into:
"you have a right to remain skeptical, but anything you believe could be held against you in the court of audiophiles" mmmm... just having a little fun on the side is all... You gentlemen may resume the regularly scheduled discussion. Thank you, thank you, and thank you!
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 16, 2014 1:41:56 GMT -5
I have had so many brands of hifi equipment that I can't possible count them, spread over decades and the only things I have heard any difference in from hour one to hour many thousand (in a lot of cases) was speaker drivers. Being mechanical it is understandable that they will loosen up in the their suspension over time. I did have one TT that had a minor speed variation for about 3 or 4 LP's, then it settled down. I've deliberately left out tube amps because they have always been in a constant state of change for me, but solid state hifi gear has never displayed one poofteenth (that's a technical term meaning SFA) of change until such time as they die, sometimes that's fast, sometimes slow.
Way back when I was an audio/lighting roady/technician I used to regularly, even during performances, swap in and out pre amps. mics, power amps, pick ups, equalisers, cables etc and never once did I hear a difference. Even between an amp that had been used for years swapped for a brand new one, fresh out of the box. Nothing, they sounded the same to me and whatever band or DJ it was at the time and they could be a right royal PITA when it came to sound quality. Brand new speaker arrays are a different thing, I can hear them loosen up during a show every time. I even caught out one of the suppliers at the time who put used drivers into new cases and charged new price for them. He didn't believe that I could hear a difference until I demo it for him in his shop.
For people that hear equipment burn in I say "good on you", I know it's a terrible thing to admit to but I haven't, but maybe one day I will.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by jefft51 on Jan 16, 2014 2:07:54 GMT -5
Putting on a bunch of time on new equipment will help weed out anything that might fail as well as make your electric co. happy  |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 16, 2014 2:10:20 GMT -5
Putting on a bunch of time on new equipment will help weed out anything that might fail as well as make your electric co. happy Absolutely, detecting the rather harshly termed "infant mortality" is a valid reason for using equipment hard in its early life. Cheers Gary |
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Post by sahmen on Jan 16, 2014 2:32:13 GMT -5
I have had so many brands of hifi equipment that I can't possible count them, spread over decades and the only things I have heard any difference in from hour one to hour many thousand (in a lot of cases) was speaker drivers. Being mechanical it is understandable that they will loosen up in the their suspension over time. I did have one TT that had a minor speed variation for about 3 or 4 LP's, then it settled down. I've deliberately left out tube amps because they have always been in a constant state of change for me, but solid state hifi gear has never displayed one poofteenth (that's a technical term meaning SFA) of change until such time as they die, sometimes that's fast, sometimes slow. Way back when I was an audio/lighting roady/technician I used to regularly, even during performances, swap in and out pre amps. mics, power amps, pick ups, equalisers, cables etc and never once did I hear a difference. Even between an amp that had been used for years swapped for a brand new one, fresh out of the box. Nothing, they sounded the same to me and whatever band or DJ it was at the time and they could be a right royal PITA when it came to sound quality. Brand new speaker arrays are a different thing, I can hear them loosen up during a show every time. I even caught out one of the suppliers at the time who put used drivers into new cases and charged new price for them. He didn't believe that I could hear a difference until I demo it for him in his shop. For people that hear equipment burn in I say "good on you", I know it's a terrible thing to admit to but I haven't, but maybe one day I will. Cheers Gary Hi Gary: Might what you're saying about speakers also apply to headphones? I am talking about mid to upper level headphones... I know this is also another can of worms.... The sound of such headphones may depend on the DACS and headphone amps to which they're attached at any given time...Some even argue that the headphone cable in use might make a difference (in the interest of full disclosure, I have been using aftermarket custom built cables for my higher end Sennheisers, ever since I noticed a significant difference after one such customized cable replacement... )...But assuming we have a hypothetical situation in which a given headphone is provided with the best possible DAC and amp and cable it matches with, would it be possible to observe some type of "break - in" evolution in its sq? I thought I should ask since you seem to have a lot of experience with audio gear. |
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Post by mcteague on Jan 16, 2014 5:53:18 GMT -5
Break in of electronic components always gives me a giggle. I am currently looking at new headphones as well and see a lot of posts about that. I always say "how do they know when to stop breaking in?". Why do they sound better after X number of hours and then hold that spot? Listen to competent engineers, there is no real break-in for this stuff. Even speakers, with actual moving parts, don't really do so. Measurements and DBTs show this to be true. However, audio is a strange hobby seeming to occupy the center area of a Venn diagram consisting of science, music appreciation and religion.
Tim
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redgum
Minor Hero
ERC-3 MARANTZ UD7007 XSP-1 UPA-1X2 REDGUM AUDIO RGS38I FLOORSTANDING SPEAKERS WINTAL 42" LED LCD TV
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Post by redgum on Jan 16, 2014 6:54:27 GMT -5
I HAVE AROUND 200+ HRS ON MY ERC-3 & NOTICED IN MY RIG OVERALL FREQUENCIES ARE MORE SMOOTHER THAN WHEN I 1ST INSTALLED IT.
THE BEST WAY I CAN DESCRIBE IT IS THE SOUNDSTAGE WAS MORE CLOSED IN MY LISTENING POSITION BUT APPROACHING 200 HR MARK IT OPENED UP OUTSIDE THE SPEAKERS & REALLY FEELING LIKE THEY ARE PLAYING RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU.
I HAVE HAD NO PROBS WITH REDBOOK LAYER OF SACD PLAYBACK & TO BE HONEST IT SOUNDS THE SAME AS THE SACD VERSION ON THE SAME DISC.
I PROBABLY OPENED UP A CAN OF WORMS BUT THIS PLAYER IS ABSOLUTELY SUBPERB & HIGHLY RECOMMEND AN AUDITION.
AFTER ALL HOW MANY DSD SACD PLAYERS OUTPUT THEIR NAVITIVITY?
CHEERS CHRIS
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Post by trinhsman on Jan 16, 2014 8:03:24 GMT -5
I believe there is something to a "burn in" period to quality electronics. Now whether that is perceived, or real can be argued. It may be nothing more than your ears getting used to the new sound. It may be that the parts in the equipment actually settle in from the electrical current going through them over extended periods. I am not an engineer. I just know that to me my ERC-3 player seemed to open up after about 100 hours of play time. It seemed to me to have a better placement of instruments. The soundstage got larger and more lush. Again, it could be nothing more than my ears getting used to the sound, my wanting to hear more, or something really changing. Trust your ears. Use a CD than you know inside and out to make the comparisons.
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Post by gravi on Jan 16, 2014 10:21:13 GMT -5
A CD player is a laser pickup that reads bits from an optical disc and delivers them to a Digital to Analog circuit, which is a solid-state SOC. Nothing in this sequence of events can theoretically be affected by "burn-in", however that is defined. That is the physics of it. As for the psychology of hearing, there are no established benchmarks so anything is possible.
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KeithL
Administrator 
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Post by KeithL on Jan 16, 2014 11:00:34 GMT -5
Speakers (and headphones) really do have a "burn-in", although how noticeable it is will depend on the design and materials involved. With a speaker or headphone, you have a diaphragm or cone of some sort, held in place by some sort of suspension (with a cone speaker this will be the edge surround and a similar internal "spider"). The suspension is flexible, usually involving rubber or stiffened cloth folded in some sort of accordion-like pattern. The point there is that virtually all suspension materials DO get softer and squishier as they are flexed repeatedly over the first few hours, or even the first few hundred hours. Since the resonant frequency of the driver is set by the relationship between the mass (weight), which doesn't change, and the springiness of the suspension, which DOES change, the resonant frequency does indeed shift as the driver "wears in" (generally the suspension gets softer and the resonant frequency gets lower).
In a sealed enclosure, where the air pressure in the cabinet is usually more of a factor than the suspension, the difference will be slight - and usually a SLIGHT improvement in bass extension. (In fact you can usually measure it, but probably wouldn't hear it.) HOWEVER, in a ported and tuned design, the difference can be more noticeable. (A tuned design is calculated based on the parameters of the driver - especially that resonant frequency. A well designed speaker should be set such that the tuning is correct after the driver has "settled in", and so the tuning may actually not align properly before the speaker has "burned in". The upshot is that, for certain speaker designs, you actually may hear a significant difference during "burn in"... usually in terms of bass flatness and "tightness". The same holds true for headphones, although they may be even more sensitive. Planar designs and electrostatics have a similar situation as the diaphragm actually stretches and softens a tiny bit over the first few hours.)
Note that, if you want to burn in a speaker or headphone, you want to use a source signal that includes a variety of frequencies so all drivers in the speaker are receiving at least some of the lower frequencies they reproduce (for a given driver, the lower frequencies will make it move further, and so soften up the surround the fastest). You also want to be sure and avoid levels high enough to damage the speaker by overheating it. Pink noise or just plain music, played at moderate levels, work well.... goofy CDs with "special" test patterns will certainly do the job as well - although I am unaware of any proof that they work any better than pink noise or music. (So, yes, it really is possible that not only do you get used to how your new speakers sound, but they do actually change slightly as they "burn in"...)
Since there is also an obvious "psychological burn in effect" (I believe it may be called "accommodation"), where whatever we're listening to becomes accepted by our brain as "correct" or "normal" after some time (and so new things we hear may then be considered "wrong"), I suppose for fair tests it would make sense to let speakers burn in for a few days before comparing them. (Most pros just leave them playing overnight with music on a loop; put them face to face - but not touching - and throw a rug over them if they keep the dog awake.)
And, no, there's nothing in a CD player that should sound different after running for several days. (There are servos in the player itself, but they only affect the ability to track a disc - so you might conceivable find a situation where a certain player was able to play a certain badly damaged disc after several days of burn-in, but not before, because the servos had softened up a tiny bit... and you might even find that the transport itself gets slightly quieter as the grease thins out and gets spread around the gears and moving parts - but it isn't going to sound any different on a disc that does play.)
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Post by siggie on Jan 16, 2014 11:27:04 GMT -5
I have developed a proprietary audio equipment break-in recording that I transferred to CD and vinyl. It must be played continuously for one year. It improves frequency response, imaging, and speed for all speakers, amplifiers, sources, and cables. The silent passages become more silent, and it is easier to place musicians on the soundstage. It even worked on a set of wire coathanger speaker cables during my testing. Anyone interested should send me their equipment, return postage, and $100 per item, and I will return your equipment in one year. I am willing to waive Paypal fees if you send me your entire system. PM me if interested.
Siggie
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Post by jmilton on Jan 16, 2014 11:35:46 GMT -5
The "burn in " questions leaves me burnt out...  |
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
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Post by hemster on Jan 16, 2014 11:38:35 GMT -5
The "burn in " questions leaves me burnt out... But the key questions are: How long did it take for you to get burnt out? And is there a noticeable difference after being burnt out? |
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stiehl11
Emo VIPs 
Give me available light!
Posts: 7,269
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Post by stiehl11 on Jan 16, 2014 13:17:29 GMT -5
The "burn in " questions leaves me burnt out... It's better to burn out than fade away!  |
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LCSeminole
Global Moderator
Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Jan 16, 2014 13:22:01 GMT -5
A CD player is a laser pickup that reads bits from an optical disc and delivers them to a Digital to Analog circuit, which is a solid-state SOC. Nothing in this sequence of events can theoretically be affected by "burn-in", however that is defined. That is the physics of it. As for the psychology of hearing, there are no established benchmarks so anything is possible. This has always been my take on this subject. |
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Post by thepcguy on Jan 16, 2014 13:36:48 GMT -5
10001010011000010000100100101010010101010101011010111010111101010110111011001010101
after burn-in?
10001010011000010000100100101010010101010101011010111010111101010110111011001010101
more hours?
10001010011000010000100100101010010101010101011010111010111101010110111011001010101
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Post by monkumonku on Jan 16, 2014 13:55:50 GMT -5
10001010011000010000100100101010010101010101011010111010111101010110111011001010101 after burn-in? 10001010011000010000100100101010010101010101011010111010111101010110111011001010101more hours? 10001010011000010000100100101010010101010101011010111010111101010110111011001010101So in other words after burn in the data becomes slanted and after even more hours it is louder? |
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