Does the amp change the AVR's "sound"?

[iguanaman]

I hope this isn't too dumb of a question. I'm thinking of getting a Denon AVR-X4000 for my HT setup and down the road add in a XPA-3 to handle the fronts & center. 
 
AVR's, I'm told, oftentimes have their own sonic attributes such as "warm", "bright", "bass heavy", etc.. When adding in an amp, specifically the XPA-3, does that change those sonic attributes? 

[DYohn]

An amp changes the signal by making it large enough to drive loudspeakers.

[stiehl11]

A good amplifier only amplifies the signal that it's sent; it doesn't change or color the sound. You may notice a better sound when going to a separate amplifier as most AVRs are anemic when it comes to power. But, it's not changing the sound; it's just giving you more sound.

[jmasterj]

Hi iguanaman,

Welcome to the Lounge.

Ideally a power amp should only amplify, or magnify the signal coming in from the preamp, or in this case your AVR. Having said that, when I added a separate power amp (that happened to be two and a half times the power of the amps in my AVR) it resulted in a more open presentation. It almost seemed like the sound coming from the AVR had been restricted, and the added headroom from the new power amp lifted a veil. The over all sound seemed to expand. This information that was now being conveyed was there all the time, it just was not being amplified by the amps in the receiver.

It's like when you go from a basic CD player, or DVD player to a quality CD player like a Emotiva ERC model. You hear a big difference. You're listening to the same CD's as before it's just the better quality CD player is able to extract more information from the CD. I think this analogy can describe the effects adding a XPA-3 might have on your current set up. If that makes sense. Hope this was helpful. j

[1960broookwood]

Yes it can.

I added a 7-350 to an Aventage that I had used for several years--nothing else about the setup changed.

I found it to be "cold" compared to the internal amps--had to do a little tuning with the equalizer to get a familiar "acceptable" sound.

I have amps by NAD--Rotel--Dynaco--Carver--Hafler--Quinpu--Dayton Audio--Lepai--and Emotiva which all have a different sonic signature.

But then I may just be old, deaf, and crazy--YMMV.

[highfihoney]

With the exception of faulty interconnects or speaker wire thats too small a gauge everything in the audio chain has its own sound , to a degree .
Speakers are obviously the biggest part, next is pre/pro & then comes the sorurce , many will argue this point where amplifaction is the last link in the chain , keep in mind im speaking of amps that are both of good design & capable of handeling the speakers needs .

Adding an external power amp to the avr will change the sound but in a good way by increasing power to the 3 front channels , the additional amp will only emphasize the avr's existing sound by reinforcing it's current sound ,so what you end up with is a fuller sound ( more of what sound you allready have ), you may also experience enhanced performance of the avr's rear channels , the external amp will in many cases add performance to the rears by decreasing demand put on the avr's internal amp's power supply, thus giving better response of the rears , you will not end up with a " different " sound by adding any good quality amp with more wattage to the avr , only enhanced performance at higher spl .

Hope that answers your question .

[iguanaman]

Hmmm...4 to 1 old, deaf and crazy guy.

I kid, I kid.

Since the X4000 seems to have a decent amount of room correction ability I guess I'll be fine even if the XPA-3 does influence the sound. I appreciate the replies.
 
Edited after seeing highfihoney's reply:  My speakers aren't high-end but fairly neutral (I think). B&W DM604 S2's. If anything, I hope to get a slightly warmer sound than what my old Pio VSX-24TX provided. 

[garbulky]

I think it's a little bit of wishful thinking to say that an amp will not change the sound.

I've found they do...because I've heard differences in Emotiva amplifier.
But.....your bigger concern is the quality of your AVR, speakers and room and not so much the amp. Emotiva amps are all very nice.
For instance
I have an XDA-1 coupled to a UPA-2 using a passive pre-amplifier.
I auditioned a USP-1 and XPA-2 using my XDA-1. And that did give a significant step up in sound quality.
But I used a DC-1 DAC direct to my UPA-2 and I felt that the overall improvement made more of a difference than with the amp and pre-amp upgrade.
Hope that helps. I feel after your speakers are taken care of (i.e. resolving and not without glaring problems) then it's your source, room and speaker positioning that's the biggest change in sound. This is a slightly different twist as most people here feel that the DAC (source) is taken care of rather early on and it's the speakers and room tend to be the most important.

[Gary Cook]

Sometimes the guys on here are a bit too literal, and strictly answer the question. In this case the question asked (i.e.; will an XPA-3 change the sound from an X400?) is not the question that should be asked. The real question is why buy an X4000 when there is an admission that its power amp isn't good enough for the front 3 channels? The way I look at it is, if it's not good enough for the front 3 channels then its' not good enough for any channels. If you were looking at a 5.1 set up then an XPA-5 is an obvious choice, for the extra $100 a channel it's a no brainer.

On the question of the X4000 itself, if the power amp stage isn't good enough, then a large % of the cost of the X4000 is wasted. Having tried an X4000 I found it's sound not to be as much to my liking as a UMC-200, which walked all over it quality wise listening with my ears, using my speakers in my room. The argument for separates is a good one, power amps last a long time, processors go out of date very quickly. As a result separating their cost makes good budgetary sense. In this case it also makes good sonic sense.


Cheers
Gary

[iguanaman]

I appreciate the thoughts, Gary. I was close to buying the UMC-200 but decided against it after a few days of research both here and elsewhere. My last setup for a HT was in a square 11'x11' room. My speakers were powered by a 90wpc avr that probably did 75wpc in the real world. I could achieve very high volumes but the sound wasn't to my liking and I can almost guarantee the room had most to do with that. I'll be going into a far more acoustically friendly room in the near future. One where I can pull the speakers out from both the rear and side walls and the room will be rectangular, not square.

My thinking is to get an above average avr like the X4000 now and use it's XT32 calibration in the newer room, first. I believe the results will be far and beyond what I had before while keeping my initial outlay to 1K. If I went UMC-200/XPA-5 the outlay would be $600 more and I simply cannot spend that kind of money right now. But like I said earlier, there are other reasons I decided against the UMC-200.

So for me, and *my needs*, I'm not saying the power isn't good enough in the X4000 for my speakers. I actually think it will be a major step up when combined with the newer room layout. The XPA-3 is something I may add down the road to get that added headroom and lift whatever veil may exist. By then, I should be able to get one at a great price and it should make for a nice upgrade.

[garbulky]

Iguanaman. I have to tell you. If you can....jump directly into separates. Because of this....(warning huge rant against AVR's. Not meant to bash people who own AVR's, just trying to convince iguanaman here).

You are going to be always upgrading your AVR. In an AVR nothing is free. And everything inside it tends to be ....mediocre. When you upgrade, you are spending money on the amplifier sections (which are not too great). For instance that 90 wpc avr.....likely does 40 watts per channel all channels driven - if that and not 75 watts.

HDMI 2 is coming around likely this year. It will make whatever you get obsolete. Then when you upgrade again - you are throwing money away again on poor amp sections that you will not use.

Like this:
You buy a Denon. You may have spent $500 more bucks for honestly a slightly less wimpy (but still wimpy) amp section). When you upgrade, to HDMI 2, you will spend $500 more bucks to get the same wimpy amp section just so you can keep up. On the other hand spending on a pre-pro means you are (hopefully) spending on SOUND quality. Then that extra $500 you spend pushed towards the power amp will get you much much bigger returns for your money.

Next we come to sound quality. Yes, room correction isn't the beginning and end of sound quality in the least. It starts with the DACS used and also equally important is the analog LINESTAGE and the preamplifier sections.
For isntance the Denon probably attenuates volume in a lossy way in the digital domain. Which means as you turn down the volume the sound quality loses resolution. While the UMC-200 uses an analog volume control which does not do these hi-jinks (provided you are not using room correction). The UMC-200 has a direct analog pass through and is supposed to act as a pretty nice pre-amp. I don't know if I'd have the same confidence in a mid-priced Denon AVR.

Take a look at Denons website: usa.denon.com/us/product/pages/productdetail.aspx?catid=avreceivers%28denonna%29&pid=avrx4000%28denonna%29
Do you notice how much they talk about sound quality in their description? They don't. Do you have ANY idea what's in that system?
They talk about the amps (which are weak) and room correction and features. They don't talk about their pre-amplifier sections, their analog sections. Nothing.
Now look at Emotiva's description. They focus on sound quality. I think that says something. Also....they link to an audioholicvs review where they include a full array of SNR measurements, quality of the pre-outs, the voltage swing, and showed an SNR of (surprisingly) 102 db. That is good quality no matter how you look at it.
www.audioholics.com/av-preamp-processor-reviews/umc-200-a-v-processor/umc-200-a-v-processor-measurements
Now take a look at the audioholics review of the denon. No measurements are in that review. Why is that?
www.audioholics.com/av-receiver-reviews/denon-avr-x4000-review

If you get a solid power amp now. It will completely stomp all over most AVR's that are below 2 K. And if you get an XPA-5 it will still stomp on most AVR's regardless of price.
I would get a USED XPA-5 on the emporium - the warranty transfers. Then buy the UMC-200. Or better yet....wait till HDMI 2 comes out. Emo will probably have some solution there. And go separates. You will save money in the long run.

Going separates was the best decision I made financially and I am so glad I went that way.

[klinemj]

Great advice...I have been extremely happy with my separates for quite some time. If money is a factor now, I would consider my following thoughts as a twist of Garbulky's suggestion. The XMC-1 is likely going to be on sale within about 2 weeks. When it is, I suspect we will see some good deals on used UMC-200's - which are excellent pre/pro's. I would consider getting a used one of those and buying as much amp as I can now. The UMC-200 will get you buy for quite a while, and when there are enough new cool things in a pre/pro out - you can sell it, get the latest pre/pro, and keep the amp. Amps tend to have a longer lifecycle than pre/pro's due to things like HDMI 2, etc...

PS - the XPA-5 is a GREAT amp for starting separates...used or new. I still love mine even though it now only does 4 surrounds and center power, no longer for FR/FL.

Mark