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Post by solidstate on Feb 4, 2014 0:23:13 GMT -5
Useful replies provide numbers such as more provided below. Long before PCs existed, international design standards required 120 volt electronics to withstand up to 600 volts without damage. Surgex is highly regarded for doing something completely different - acting as a series mode filter. Does a series mode filter make all anomalies irrelevant? Of course not. Useful replies provide/cite these "international standards" claiming a piece of electronics has to survive 600v and continue working. I can understand 600v and not catching on fire but has to continue working? hmm... A lot have fuses that will blow before reaching that voltage. Does that mean they fail your international test/standard because they don't continue to work? LOL Regarding the SurgeX filter being known for helping SQ, considering most SurgeX users are pro audio and don't buy into that crap, I've never heard one ever comment on how it made their stage rig "sound better" so it's news to me they are known for their filter. LOL Roadie Review "Yeah Joe did you notice how that SurgeX filter increased the "air" and "decay" of that J-array!" "Yeah Joe it's really opened and widened up the soundstage and is more dynamic with faster decay painting a more microdynamically astute presentation." |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 4, 2014 1:08:22 GMT -5
And then again you can have a nice life not having to deal with all those Insurance companies. I don't have to , I just claim it on my insurance and they chase the culprit. Cheers Gary Those Auzie Ascension speakers look interesting. The one mid driver on those sure looks like the mineral-filled PP woofer that Ascend Acoustics uses in the Sierra! It's the one with the concave dust cap. The dif seems to be the frame is truncated. Might be a different motor but it's clearly the same cone. Do you know who the driver manufacturer is? |
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Post by dschartner on Feb 4, 2014 1:59:55 GMT -5
After a year of gleaning tidbits from these boards and waiting patiently for the XMC-1 release, I'm smiling as finally a topic comes up that I'm confident to contribute to. While I am ok not plugging my emotiva amps into expensive power conditioners! I am certainly going to try to protect the Xmc-1 from surges and spikes. I am happy to recommend a company callled Zero Surge for power protection. although they do not market directly in the Audiophile retail market, probably due to OEM agreements, the product rates exceedingly well in my subjective SQ tests.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 4, 2014 2:41:36 GMT -5
I don't have to , I just claim it on my insurance and they chase the culprit. Those Auzie Ascension speakers look interesting. The one mid driver on those sure looks like the mineral-filled PP woofer that Ascend Acoustics uses in the Sierra! It's the one with the concave dust cap. The dif seems to be the frame is truncated. Might be a different motor but it's clearly the same cone. Do you know who the driver manufacturer is? Edward uses a number of driver suppliers, commonly Peerless, SB Acoustics, Vifa, Eminence Lab, Scanspeak and a couple of other Danish manufacturers that he keeps to himself. They are also not always standard, for example I know the Peerless drivers in my L&R are not an off the shelf item, they are modified by Peerless to his specs. Cheers Gary |
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Post by audibility on Feb 4, 2014 4:33:23 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone who responded to my thread. I see there is a difference of opinion regarding surge/power protection and even if it is necessary.
Regarding whole house protection, I have limited electrical knowledge. I have done some basic electrical projects, changing out lighting fixtures, installing dimmers, etc. I believe installing a whole house protector would be a job for a licensed electrician. I thought that all homes were electrically grounded at the main power box. I know the incoming Comcast cable has a ground because I see it, not sure about telephone lines. At this time, the cable is not connected to my stereo as I do no streaming - computer in another room.
Solidstate - Thanks for the video links demonstrating Surge-Ex. If I buy a plug-in surge protector, I will probably purchase one of their units but they are so expensive - I was hoping to spend less.
I live in Florida and we do have a lot of lightning strikes. I believe the microwave was fried many years ago by a nearby strike. Something else was damaged, can not remember what. Still, many things were not affected - strange how it would affect one appliance and not other things.
I guess insuring audio equipment or making sure homeowner's insurance would cover in the event of loss would be an option. I was told by someone that homeowner's insurance would cover damage but have not verified it yet. And of course, there would always be a deductible cost.
Anyway, I guess I still have a little thinking to do. If anyone else has additional input, I would love to hear from you.
Thanks again !
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2014 7:04:59 GMT -5
I've posted it before but hey - I like it!  |
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Post by Priapulus on Feb 4, 2014 9:21:26 GMT -5
> I don't have to , I just claim it on my insurance and they chase the culprit.
> Cheers
> Gary
You must have very accommodating insurance companies. Here, the insurance company won't even consider a claim without unequivocal evidence: the lightning scorch marks on the wall, smoke and sparks, blown fuses, weather report, eyewitnesses of the hit, other equipment similarly damaged. I know it; I've been thru it.
Church's (on a hill) steeple took a direct lightning it, blowing a hole in the roof and starting a fire. The church electronic organ was fried, alarm system fried, phone system fried, computers fried, scorch marks on the wall, service panel damaged, eye witnesses of the hit. But we still had to bring in expert witnesses before the insurance company would consider the claim.
Unfortunately, the usual evidence of "surge" damage is, when you turn the equipment on the next day, it doesn't work. You don't know when it happened or why; it's just dead. Even if they accept the claim, the deductible is probably more than the value of the goods and they'll jack your premiums up.
Even if you think it's a waste of time, given the cost of your gear, and the low cost of protection, it seems silly not to use surge protectors, just in case... It can do no harm and it may save your gear.
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Post by Priapulus on Feb 4, 2014 9:32:22 GMT -5
> Protection <snip> is performed by connecting every wire inside every cable 'low impedance' (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground.
Very true. Much "surge" damage is caused by ground loops. For example a pulse coming in on an improperly grounded CATV coax, into your cable box (blowing it), traveling thru the HDMI shield to your processor (blowing it) exiting the processor's power cord into it's surge protector...
That's why surge protectors will only warranty if ~all~ connections are protected.
To further illustrate, let's say your utility service panel, at the west end of the house is properly grounded. The CATV coax enter the house at the east end of the house, "properly" grounded there. All lightning wants to do is go to ground.
So a 10,000 volt lightning pulse comes in the power lines from the street and gets shunted to ground at the service panel. At that instant, your ground is sitting at 10,000 volts; but it does no harm because it has no path except to earth (like a bird sitting on a 10,000 volt power line).
But wait, all that pulse wants to do it get to ground. It looks thru your house wiring, thru your processor, thru your cable box, thru your CATV coax and see the CATV coax "properly" grounded point on the east side of the house, sitting at zero volts. The 10,000 volt pulse at the west service entrance instantly zaps thru your gear to the east CATV Zero ground, frying everything in its path; all in milliseconds.
The fix is to bring the CATV cable in at the west service entrance and bond the grounds together, avoiding the ground loop.
Just buy a $50 Panamax power bar and plug all your gear into it. It will common ground all your gear, reducing ground loop hum; and as a bonus give surge protection. |
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Post by aud on Feb 4, 2014 9:33:40 GMT -5
And then again you can have a nice life not having to deal with all those Insurance companies. I don't have to , I just claim it on my insurance and they chase the culprit. Cheers Gary OK Gary. Have fun with your insurance claims. I truly hope your rates don't go up. |
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Post by aud on Feb 4, 2014 10:09:08 GMT -5
Thanks to everyone who responded to my thread. I see there is a difference of opinion regarding surge/power protection and even if it is necessary. Regarding whole house protection, I have limited electrical knowledge. I have done some basic electrical projects, changing out lighting fixtures, installing dimmers, etc. I believe installing a whole house protector would be a job for a licensed electrician. I thought that all homes were electrically grounded at the main power box. I know the incoming Comcast cable has a ground because I see it, not sure about telephone lines. At this time, the cable is not connected to my stereo as I do no streaming - computer in another room. Solidstate - Thanks for the video links demonstrating Surge-Ex. If I buy a plug-in surge protector, I will probably purchase one of their units but they are so expensive - I was hoping to spend less. I live in Florida and we do have a lot of lightning strikes. I believe the microwave was fried many years ago by a nearby strike. Something else was damaged, can not remember what. Still, many things were not affected - strange how it would affect one appliance and not other things. I guess insuring audio equipment or making sure homeowner's insurance would cover in the event of loss would be an option. I was told by someone that homeowner's insurance would cover damage but have not verified it yet. And of course, there would always be a deductible cost. Anyway, I guess I still have a little thinking to do. If anyone else has additional input, I would love to hear from you. Thanks again ! Did you check out Zero Surge? Their prices are a little better. |
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Post by audiogeek on Feb 4, 2014 10:29:42 GMT -5
> Protection <snip> is performed by connecting every wire inside every cable 'low impedance' (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground.
Very true. Much "surge" damage is caused by ground loops. For example a pulse coming in on an improperly grounded CATV coax, into your cable box (blowing it), traveling thru the HDMI shield to your processor (blowing it) exiting the processor's power cord into it's surge protector...
That's why surge protectors will only warranty if ~all~ connections are protected. +1 Exactly. It does absolutely no good to plug some of your equipment into any type of surge protection, and not all of it. Panamax will warranty everything damaged while using their product as long as everything runs through their product. |
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Post by westom on Feb 5, 2014 11:51:38 GMT -5
I believe the microwave was fried many years ago by a nearby strike. Something else was damaged, can not remember what. Still, many things were not affected - strange how it would affect one appliance and not other things. Nothing strange about selective damage. That is how surges work. Remember what Franklin's lightning rod does. it connects a surge to what it seeks - earth ground. Then a surge need not use the house, destructively, as a connection to earth. A lightning strike far down the street to utility wires is incoming to every appliance. But again, from elementary school science, if a current is incoming, then a same current must also be outgoing on some other path. A surge is incoming to every appliance. Which appliance also made a best outgoing path to earth? Also remember, things like linoleum, concrete, and wood are electrical conductors. Damage is to an appliance that also makes a best outgoing connection. Remove the microwave and a surge will seek earth ground via some other appliance. Routine is to have a surge incoming to everything but only damage one appliance - a best connection to earth. The outgoing path for TVs and computers was often a cable connection or modem. In both cases, a surge was incoming on AC mains. Only an outgoing path was damaged. Causing many to wildly speculate, erroneously, that a surge must have entered via cable TV or telephone line. Damage is always about what makes a destructively connection to earth. Protection was always about connecting that current to earth BEORE it strikes or enters a house. Only then does well proven protection from surges (ie lightning) exist. Anything adjacent to an appliance is already done better inside that appliance. Your concern is a surge that can overwhelm that protection. A surge that occurs maybe once every seven years (probably higher in your venue). Protection that works - how it has been done for over 100 years - is to earth that surge BEFORE it can enter. Only item always found in any facility that cannot have damage is earthing - and a 'whole house' protector. Earthing that exceeds what is required by code. (Earthing is not the safety ground in a wall receptacle.) Earthing for human safety may be insufficient for transistor safety. For example, a hardwired connection from the cable TV to earth must be low impedance. That means as short as possible (ie 'less than 10 feet'), no sharp bends in that wire, separated from all other non-grounding wires, no splices, and the earth ground must be the same electrode also used by telephone and AC electric protectors. Anyone can install a 'whole house' protector if comfortable inside the breaker box. So superior 'whole house' protectors sell even in Lowes and Home Depot. Otherwise an electrician is necessary. However electricians only understand earthing for human safety. He may not also understand important concepts that require earthing to exceed code requirements - to make that same earth ground useful for transistor safety. For example, if a ground wire leaves the breaker box, goes up over the foundation and down to an earth ground electrode, then protection is compromised. The wire to too long, has too many sharp bends, and is not separated from tother wires entering the breaker box. Much confusion exists because a majority are educated by advertising and subjective reasoning. Surgex, Brickwall, etc are series mode filters. They do noise reduction. Some have been hyped to do surge protection. Any surge protector that does not make lightning surges irrelevant is not doing effective surge protection. Series mode filters are for noise and other anomalies - are not effective surge protection for a long list of reasons and technical numbers. Besides, a properly earthed 'whole house' protector even protects those series mode filters - as well as all other household appliances. Properly earthed 'whole house' protectors are found in factilities that cannot have damage even from lightning. Protection even from direct lightning strikes is that routine. But appreciate a most important point here. Protect ors do not do protect ion. Protect ors only connect to what does protect ion. Single point earth ground. All four words have major significance. Earth ground is the only item that must always exist in every protection system. Most still have wires that enter without that low impedance connection to earth - therefore only have protection that comes standard inside all appliances. That earthing is the 'art'. Protectors are only simple science. Protectors only do what a wire would otherwise do better. |
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Post by westom on Feb 5, 2014 12:12:34 GMT -5
Panamax will warranty everything damaged while using their product as long as everything runs through their product. Good luck getting that warranty honored. Protectors that do not claim protection from typically destructive surges (including lightning) will hype big buck warranties. Most forget to read the fine print that means they need not honor that warranty. Why would they? Panamax and so many other protectors, that have virtually no earth ground, are claiming protection from surges often made irrelevant by protection already inside all appliances. Did you read its spec numbers? Where does it list numbers for protection from each type of surge? It doesn't. They hope you will not ask damning questions. Such as, "Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? How does a Panamax with so few joules absorb destructive surges?" One well proven lesson from free market economics. The products with the best warranty are often the more inferior products. GM promoted the best warranty on cars. Far superior to what Honda and Toyota promote. Does that mean GM products are more reliable? Of course not. Warranties are hyped to people who ignore and refuse to learn from manufacturer spec numbers and other well proven science. Good luck getting Panamax to pay for lightning damage. Or learn from the experience of others who made your same assumption. Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. What does Panamax say? It does not claim to protect from surges that typically do the damage. So they hype a big buck warranty. |
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