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Post by audibility on Feb 3, 2014 1:45:05 GMT -5
Hi Guys,
Last year I invested quite a bit of money in Emo gear. I am very pleased with the equipment. I have heard that it is okay to plug their amps directly into the wall (or a high quality power strip ?). I am concerned with protecting my other gear with some type of surge protection and I want to get a high quality device. I am most concerned with the LONGEVITY and PERFORMANCE of my components. I would like around 8 outlets - 6 or 10 is okay. I do not have more shelves available right now - will need to update my audio "rack" sometime later this year. So, the idea of a strip or brick type protector is attractive because I could put it on the floor between my shelf unit and the wall - it would be out of sight. However, I know that many of the higher end, surge/noise filters are rack mount or components with feet. I have looked on the net and found some brick type surges that are sequential non-sacrificial types : brick wall, surge-x and surge-out.- these do not have the MOV filters that degrade over time but I do not know how their protection compares to the MOV types. I have also looked at Tripp-lite and Furman. There is also the issue of voltage regulation or not. I used to think a surge protector was good if it was a "name brand." The more I have investigated this matter, the more confused I have become and I am ready to buy something and be done with it. I know that some people on this forum have APC 15 or Belkin PF60. I am curious as to why these units were chosen and which is the better unit - subjective question I believe. Any help would be appreciated. THANKS.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 3, 2014 1:56:05 GMT -5
I have never used any type of surge protect, voltage stabilisation, back up etc with any of my audio gear, ever. No failures, no burn outs, just good quality sound not limited by the size of the pipe inbetween the gear and the power outlet.
Cheers
Gary
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Feb 3, 2014 1:58:53 GMT -5
As you're considering plugging your amps directly into the wall outlets, then current limitation by a power conditioner is not an issue. Otherwise you'd best be looking for a unit that doesn't limit current. I have an APC-15 and all my gear except the projector and sub are plugged into it. I have done A/B comparisons with the amp plugged into the wall and into the APC and have found no difference. For protection of your other gear as well as a "brick" form-factor, as well as superb performance, you can't go wrong with the CMX-6:  Click on image for details. |
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Post by audibility on Feb 3, 2014 2:03:28 GMT -5
I have never used any type of surge protect, voltage stabilisation, back up etc with any of my audio gear, ever. No failures, no burn outs, just good quality sound not limited by the size of the pipe inbetween the gear and the power outlet. Cheers Gary Thanks Gary. I was not expecting that reply - that's what I am doing now. I appreciate your input. |
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Post by dust770 on Feb 3, 2014 2:04:31 GMT -5
I also have never used a surge protector and have never had a problem. I say save your money.
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Post by audibility on Feb 3, 2014 2:06:07 GMT -5
As you're considering plugging your amps directly into the wall outlets, then current limitation by a power conditioner is not an issue. Otherwise you'd best be looking for a unit that doesn't limit current. I have an APC-15 and all my gear except the projector and sub are plugged into it. I have done A/B comparisons with the amp plugged into the wall and into the APC and have found no difference. For protection of your other gear as well as a "brick" form-factor, as well as superb performance, you can't go wrong with the CMX-6: Click on image for details. Hemster, I would like a CMX-6 - I believe it has been listed as unavailable for quite some time. Am I missing something ? |
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Post by audibility on Feb 3, 2014 2:06:43 GMT -5
I also have never used a surge protector and have never had a problem. I say save your money. Interesting. Thanks. |
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Feb 3, 2014 2:08:02 GMT -5
Certainly consider the quality and consistency of power available in your home.
I live in the lightening capital of the world, so I believe having some insurance is prudent. YMMV.
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hemster
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Post by hemster on Feb 3, 2014 2:11:52 GMT -5
As you're considering plugging your amps directly into the wall outlets, then current limitation by a power conditioner is not an issue. Otherwise you'd best be looking for a unit that doesn't limit current. I have an APC-15 and all my gear except the projector and sub are plugged into it. I have done A/B comparisons with the amp plugged into the wall and into the APC and have found no difference. For protection of your other gear as well as a "brick" form-factor, as well as superb performance, you can't go wrong with the CMX-6: Click on image for details. Hemster, I would like a CMX-6 - I believe it has been listed as unavailable for quite some time. Am I missing something ? I know I want to get one for my family room but I currently have an Isobar so no hurry for me. Yes, it is currently unavailable. Call Emotiva to see if they have any or when they might be available again. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 3, 2014 6:50:47 GMT -5
There really is only one solution IMHO that really works. www.surgex.com/EMI/RFI interference is real and a good filter can make an audible difference depending on your system. |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 3, 2014 6:55:08 GMT -5
Emotiva IS protected from fault conditions with internal circuitry. When the voltage dips or goes higher than the amp is designed for, it will SHUT DOWN preventing damage. The torroidal power supply and other circuitry in it also helps. Unless you have audibly (and visibly) consistent bad power I would not buy a the surge protector/line conditioner. My line of thinking is that Amps can demand large swings in current over a very very short time. Though line conditioners may be stated as being able to provide the wattage, there's no mention of how quickly it can switch from low to high wattage (hence smearing the sound/dynamics). In other words, I wouldn't spend the money as I would be worried about that. I personally know people that took their reasonably pricey brand name power conditioner off and reported improvements in sound. Of course it is heresay. Having said that....as you can see plenty of people use power conditioners without much issues. There also had been issues when the XPA-1 L was in the early days where power conditioners interfered with a circuit in the amps themselves causing audio issues. (Now been fixed I think) But if it was me, I would not do it. FWIW, my emo gear has remained turned on 24/7. No issues. No power conditioners. Great sound.  |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 3, 2014 7:07:12 GMT -5
Hey!
He hit the SurgeX with about 4 kV but that APC unit was hit with almost 6 kV.
How is that a fair test?
Even so those are the best surge/filters and sequencers available. Almost every pro rack I've seen in recent years both on/off road are using those. One guy I spoke with says he hasn't seen a failure since switching to SurgeX from another brand. Before that he said on a roadtrip they would see gear failures though rare but since...
NOTHING.
Most of the other brands are BS and not worth it.
SA-1810 is good for consumer use but if you want rackmount the XR115 is a good deal.
If you really want to do residential properly and it's a dedicated HT the XR315 is the best.
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Post by solidstate on Feb 3, 2014 7:21:35 GMT -5
This is a good video showing why SurgeX products are the best in the industry.
Now imagine that unnamed unit dumping that into the ground and even neutral of a house where perhaps the ground/neutral is poor...
hmm...
I wonder if that could damage other gear on that same screwy branch circuit huh huh?
Why their product is better.
The best product to get for people like us with no racks etc and some big bad boy amps is the SA-20-AR.
For more outlets find a medical/commercial grade power strip.
The Waber Tripp Lite units are a good deal.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 3, 2014 7:54:20 GMT -5
MOVs (metal oxide varistors) are typically good for one and ONLY one really high voltage event (such as a lightning strike). I quote from the Wikipedia article "...a varistor may not be able to successfully limit a very large surge from an event like a lightning strike where the energy involved is many orders of magnitude greater than it can handle. Follow-through current resulting from a strike may generate excessive current that completely destroys the varistor. Lesser surges still degrade it, however." Therefore, best to replace any MOV protection on at least an annual basis (or after every direct lightning strike).
Simple, commercial-grade surge-suppressors are just as good as the "audiophile" ones, in most cases. One trick that I've used for years on computers is to plug a cheap and simple MOV-based power strip directly into the wall and then plug a quality power-conditioner into the MOV strip. Annually, I'll replace the MOV strip with the assumption that the "good" power conditioner is undamaged and still functional.
One power-conditioner caveat: In my experience, the power conditioners can CAUSE noise in some tube equipment. I've had a Dyad tube preamp and a Rogue Audio tube integrated both of which either hummed or squealed when plugged into ANY power conditioner. I've yet to find any solid-state equipment with the same sensitivity, but it is something to consider if you use tubes. It doesn't happen with all tube equipment - my Jolida tube DAC is perfectly happy with or without power conditioning.
I've also used ballast transformers to condition power. They have a moving slug core that keeps the output voltage steady regardless of slight peaks or sags on the input voltage. They're big, heavy, and expensive, but they work.
Cheers - Boomzilla
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Post by westom on Feb 3, 2014 12:24:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Gary. I was not expecting that reply - that's what I am doing now. I appreciate your input. How often are dimmer switches, clocks, dishwasher, smoke detectors, bathroom GFCI, and furnace replaced due to damage? Never? All appliances already contain serious protection. But advertising dismisses science to sell a miracle box. View its numbers. Destructive surges are hundreds of thosuands of joules. How many joules does a magic box claim to absorb? Hundreds? Near zero protection with a massive profit margin. A typical 120 volt UPS in battery backup mode might output 200 volts square waves with a spike as much as 270 volts. Due to superior protection inside every electronic appliance, even that 'dirty' power is ideal for electronics. All appliances already have robust protection. Many use no protectors and have no damage. Your concern is a rare transient (maybe once every seven years) that can overwhelm protection inside any appliance. Nothing adjacent to appliances claims to protect from that (ie hundreds of thousands of joules) actually destructive transient. All facilities that cannot have damage, instead, install something completely different; that unfortunately is also called a 'surge protector'. Same phrase describes two completely different items. Best protection is a hardwire from an incoming utility cable low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth (ie cable TV installation). Some utility cables (ie telephone) cannot be earthed directly. So we do the next best protection thing. Make that same connection to earth via a 'whole house' protector. Telcos install these superior solutions for free where your wires connect to theirs. AC electric has no such protection unless you install it. Superior surge protectors do not degrade and are undamaged after many events. Others, recommending grossly undersized protectors (with excessive profits), must worry about a protector failing after one surge. But effective protectors (for about $1 per protected appliance) will earth direct lightning strikes without damage. That is the type of protector routinely found in facilities that spend less money for effective protection. The earth ground defines where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Earth ground (not any protector) determine the quality of a protection 'system' during each surge. Ineffective and high profit protectors will not even discuss earth ground. Or may try to confuse by calling a wall receptacle safety ground an earth ground. Protector life expectancy is determined by its current rating. Since lightning is typically 20,000 amps, then a minimal 'whole house' protector starts at 50,000 amps. Again, best protection that costs about $1 per protected appliance is little known to most who only learn from advertising. Best recommendation says where hundreds of thousands of joules harmlessly dissipate. Companies with superior reputations provide these including Siemens, Syscom, General Electric, Intermatic, Ditek, Square D, Polyphaser, and Leviton. A Cutler-Hammer sells in Lowes and Home Depot. Above names that any guy knows for quality. Belkin, et al will not discuss hundreds of thosuands of joules. Is not in that list. But many recommend it by ignoring all numbers. No numbers is the first reason to suspect a scam. Being unsized, it may degrade or fail on the first surge. But it sure has a good profit margin. Effective protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate. Protectors that are properly sized (ie 50,000 amps) and connected low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to earth means even direct lightning strikes do not damage or degrade a properly sized protector. This is the only solution always found in facilities that cannot have damage. |
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Post by Priapulus on Feb 3, 2014 19:13:58 GMT -5
Power spikes, and playing too loudly, are the two things most likely to damage your system. I always use surge protectors; a good brand like Panomax; $50 unit suffices. Recently I added a "whole house" surge protector to the fuse box ($100) to add another layer of protection. It amazes me that people will spend thousands of dollars on gear, but too cheap to spend $50 on a surge protector. It's like the guys who refuse to wear a seat belt because they've never had an accident...
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 3, 2014 19:19:58 GMT -5
Thanks, westom, for an interesting and informative post. I contend with more severe weather supposedly becoming more the norm (whether due to natural cycles or global warming), lightning insurance is CHEAP insurance. Off to Home Depot tomorrow to shop for a REALLY heavy-duty whole-house protector.
Cordially - Boomzilla
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Post by jlafrenz on Feb 3, 2014 19:52:11 GMT -5
I also have never used a surge protector and have never had a problem. I say save your money. Just because you never have doesn't mean you won't ever. I understand your position though. I have always been a fan of Panamax, but I would be looking at the Surgex myself. In fact, I have been thinking about replacing my Panamax with the Surgex units. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 3, 2014 20:56:00 GMT -5
I can't tell you how many times I've had a call "my gear doesn't sound right", when I look I find a power conditioner, surge protector, etc in the circuit. Remove it, plug the gear straight into the power outlet and the gear magically now sounds OK. More trouble than they are worth, cause more problems than they resolve, spend the money saved on better gear.
Cheers
Gary
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Post by solidstate on Feb 3, 2014 21:26:21 GMT -5
I also have never used a surge protector and have never had a problem. I say save your money. Just because you never have doesn't mean you won't ever. I understand your position though. I have always been a fan of Panamax, but I would be looking at the Surgex myself. In fact, I have been thinking about replacing my Panamax with the Surgex units. I used to sell those Panamax units and to be honest they are garbage compared to the SurgeX products. No insult... not putting you down... JUST THE POWERBAR! LOL PS I gotta watch that as people are so friggin sensitive about their gear and think it's an extension of their own persona or something! |
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