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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2017 14:26:26 GMT -5
Their midrange is quite variable - completely different with different placement.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 18, 2017 17:30:19 GMT -5
I made a further discovery - the single RCA that was feeding the subs was a 75-ohm video cable. I didn't even know I had one... Now I don't - giving it away to the thrift shop. Bingo, have you put the XLR interconnects back? Results? Cheers Gary
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 18, 2017 18:42:36 GMT -5
XLR test tonight
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 19, 2017 9:38:28 GMT -5
Subs work fine with XLR to main power amp. But the Crown PSE-2 amp doesn't sound so hot when being driven directly from the Oppo (in single ended or XLR inputs). The music is just flat with no dynamics. So I took the Oppo out of the signal chain (except as a Ethernet DLNA destination and converter to RCA digital out). Using the coaxial digital input of the Emotiva PT-100, the 100's built-in DAC, and the 100's RCA outputs to the Crown, I get breathtaking tonal purity, amazing imaging, and kicking dynamics. In short, the PT-100 LIKES solid-state amps; the Oppo doesn't. Now with tube amps, the opposite is true. The Oppo direct to any tube amp (all the ones here have 300,000 ohm input impedances) sounds awesome, and the PT-100 flat. Just the opposite of performance with solid-state amps. So my conclusion is "for front ends, pick the right tool for the job." With any solid-state amp I've tried it with to date, the Emotiva PT-100 sounds better than any other preamp I've heard. The Oppo direct-to-amp works fine with tube amps, but not at all so well with solid-state ones. Thinking back about some of the power amplifiers I've bought & discarded, I'm wondering how many of them were actually better (and possibly MUCH better) than they played in my setup just because of preamplifier-matching (or lack of it). I had a pair of XPA-1, Generation 2 power amplifiers - These same amps make garbulky's stereo wonderful - but in my setup, not so much. Garbulky was/is driving his with the Emotiva Stealth DC-1, I was driving mine with the Oppo directly. I blamed my lack of performance on the amps, but the true slacker may well have been the Oppo (that isn't its best into solid state input impedances of 5 to 10 K). I also had a Conrad Johnson tube preamp at the time that didn't do well at all into the XPA-1s either. But I'm wondering if the high output impedance of the CJ was just a bad match for the (relatively) lower impedance of the XPA-1s. Had I plugged the CJ into a 300K ohm tube amp, might it have sounded significantly better? So for the time being - The PT-100 (this little sucker is worth its weight in GOLD!) will ALWAYS be upstream of any solid-state amp I try. And the Oppo will always be played direct into any tube amp I try. Right tools for the job... Boom
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Post by garbulky on Feb 19, 2017 10:31:54 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 19, 2017 11:17:18 GMT -5
Would "the best" sound more than three times better than the PT-100? I'm doubting it. I've heard the (highly rated) Conrad Johnson ET3, the Audio Research LS9, the Emotiva XSP-1, and the PS Audio. The PT-100 sounds as good (in most cases, better) than any of those. How much "better" can it get - and at what cost? When I HEAR a better preamp, I'll consider BUYING a better preamp. But for now, I'm more than satisfied with the PT-100. And I don't much care if the "audiophiles" laugh at me - they haven't heard my system (but I've heard LOTS of theirs). And before you turn YOUR nose up at the PT-100, garbulky, you should take the time to hear it (with the Crown PSA-2). I think that the preamp would sound equally good with the Emotiva XPA-1s, and heard it do so last time we had it at your house (although briefly, and without sufficient warmup). I said from the beginning that I suspected the TA-100 would hit far above its price range, and the better the equipment that I pair the preamp with, the more convinced I am that I was right. Whatever the "weak link" in my system is just now, it ISN'T the PT-100. Cheers - Boom
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Feb 19, 2017 12:11:59 GMT -5
Boom, im not sure where you made the statement but I think I recall you stating thet you found the LS50 breaking up at their limit of power or something to that point. I believe that it wasn't the speaker but the amp you were hearing. My 50's have not experienced what you discribed as a speaker limit, and ive heard them with three different amps. One set being the XPR-1's.
Did I dream your statement or was it real?
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Post by audiobill on Feb 19, 2017 12:29:22 GMT -5
Overbuilt, no warranty, flaky design imo.....
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Post by garbulky on Feb 19, 2017 14:00:54 GMT -5
Overbuilt, no warranty, flaky design imo..... Bill, only the first part is true.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 19, 2017 14:52:24 GMT -5
Well, here's my take -
If I want either the KEF LS50s or the Tekton Pendragons running with no subs, then the KT-120 tubes are definitely the RIGHT tool for the job in any tube amp that uses them. The 6550 tubes don't have the same bass. But WITH the subs in the mix, the 6550s are easier (MUCH easier) to get a good blend with.
Of course, with a solid-state amp, you don't have the flexibility of tube rolling, but you DO get 90% as spacious a sound PROVIDED that you have the right preamp AND that you're willing to do the "speaker waltz" to find the right position.
I'm about to reluctantly conclude that if one truly desires the best performance, it makes good sense to use SS preamps with SS power amps, and tube preamps with tube power amps. Now there MAY be some preamps that are equally light on their feet with both tubes and solid-state power amplification, but I haven't found any yet.
Now let's talk VALUE.
I'd put Emotiva's PT-100 up against anything I've heard in the way of preamps for under $4K and be confident that the contest would be really, truly CLOSE. Obviously, this holds true ONLY with solid-state power amps that are designed (primarily) for single-ended inputs. I don't think that anyone's fully-balanced power amps sound as good when used in single-ended input mode. But, of course, I haven't heard them all, and I could be surprised...
Solid state power amps (talking traditional Class-A / AB here, with non-switching power supplies), seem to be getting closer and closer in sound (and value). Yeah, you could spend a LOT of $$$ if you tried on SS power amps, but why? I'm running a used Crown PSA-2 (about $400 on the used market) that sounds pretty darned good. Is it worth fixing when it dies? Probably not. I'll replace it with an Emotiva XPA of whatever gen, and come out ahead (and WITH a warranty) for not significantly more money. I haven't heard an Emotiva Gen. 3 with its switching power supply yet, but I have sufficient confidence in the company that I'd risk my scratch with a high confidence that I'd get a good deal and a good sound.
Tube power amps are still all over the place - both in price and in sound. Some still cleave to the "traditional" tube sound, while others attempt neutrality. The latter, by the way, are NOT cheap. But there are brands (of new tube power amps) that are (relatively) inexpensive and that can be pretty darned neutral - the VTA models come to mind...
But ultimately, I believe that performance (particularly in preamplifiers) is NOT positively correlated to price, to circuit configuration (balanced, unbalanced), or to brand. If you find a preamp whose sound you like, then be aware that to sound any better, you'd probably have to spend a LOT (really) more money. Since I am agnostic on balanced circuitry, and since my $299 Emotiva PT-100 sounds so sweet, dynamic, and transparent, I'm just not that interested in spending anything more on preamps. Would I try a Gen. 3 XSP-1? I might - but only for the bass management.
To better their own PT-100 (regardless of pricing), Emotiva's going to have to work really, really HARD! So Big Dan, give whomever voiced the PT-100 a raise - they deserve it.
One last thought and I'll shut up -
It occurs to me that many (most?) who buy the PT-100 may never know how good it really is. I've tossed the thing into some HIGH end systems, and once it's warmed up (the mandatory 30 minutes), it's as good as any other preamp I've heard. Really... But, of course, this statement assumes that the preamp is playing into a 5K to 10K input impedance on the power amp - NOT 300K ohms! Within that limitation, WOW!
Boomzilla
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Post by bluemeanies on Feb 19, 2017 17:05:14 GMT -5
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Post by Jim on Feb 19, 2017 17:14:41 GMT -5
Overbuilt, no warranty, flaky design imo..... Bill, only the first part is true. Personally, I like the class A Engrish.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 19, 2017 17:29:32 GMT -5
It occurs to me that many (most?) who buy the PT-100 may never know how good it really is. I've tossed the thing into some HIGH end systems, and once it's warmed up (the mandatory 30 minutes), it's as good as any other preamp I've heard. Really... But, of course, this statement assumes that the preamp is playing into a 5K to 10K input impedance on the power amp - NOT 300K ohms! Within that limitation, WOW! Boomzilla I do find your view on sold state warm up interesting. Some time ago I had a long standing debate with a very good friend of mine about warm up, he's a firm believer. He does things like turn his system on as soon as gets home and then doesn't listen to it until after dinner. He reckons it makes a noticeable difference, so I've actually tested him a couple of times when my wife and I were over to his place for dinner. I snuck out and turned the system off while we had dinner and then went back and turned it on just before we started listening. My wife and his wife aren't into hifi so they adjourn to the wine cellar (not such a bad thing) so it's just the 2 of us listing. He didn't notice a thing, but did comment on how good it sounded as it had been warming up since lunch time. I have now done that trick 3 times at his place and twice at mine. Except in my case it's the reverse, he thought I just turned it on when in fact it had been on for hours before they arrived. Both times he commented that it sounded better after an hour or so of listening. As well as the subjective tests, I've also tested it with instrumentation, stone cold recording of a piece of music, wait an hour for warm up and do it again, then overlay. Never seen a measurable difference. However with tubes it's ever so easy to measure the differences, they definitely like time to normalise. Me, I have never been able to tell a difference in sound due solid state warm up times. Personally I think it the listeners ears that warm up, not the equipment. Cheers Gary
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Post by ehmokey on Feb 19, 2017 17:51:24 GMT -5
It occurs to me that many (most?) who buy the PT-100 may never know how good it really is. I've tossed the thing into some HIGH end systems, and once it's warmed up (the mandatory 30 minutes), it's as good as any other preamp I've heard. Really... But, of course, this statement assumes that the preamp is playing into a 5K to 10K input impedance on the power amp - NOT 300K ohms! Within that limitation, WOW! Boomzilla I do find your view on sold state warm up interesting. Some time ago I had a long standing debate with a very good friend of mine about warm up, he's a firm believer. He does things like turn his system on as soon as gets home and then doesn't listen to it until after dinner. He reckons it makes a noticeable difference, so I've actually tested him a couple of times when my wife and I were over to his place for dinner. I snuck out and turned the system off while we had dinner and then went back and turned it on just before we started listening. My wife and his wife aren't into hifi so they adjourn to the wine cellar (not such a bad thing) so it's just the 2 of us listing. He didn't notice a thing, but did comment on how good it sounded as it had been warming up since lunch time. I have now done that trick 3 times at his place and twice at mine. Except in my case it's the reverse, he thought I just turned it on when in fact it had been on for hours before they arrived. Both times he commented that it sounded better after an hour or so of listening. As well as the subjective tests, I've also tested it with instrumentation, stone cold recording of a piece of music, wait an hour for warm up and do it again, then overlay. Never seen a measurable difference. However with tubes it's ever so easy to measure the differences, they definitely like time to normalise. Me, I have never been able to tell a difference in sound due solid state warm up times. Personally I think it the listeners ears that warm up, not the equipment. Cheers Gary I too am unable to perceive a difference in sound after the equipment has been on for any perod of time. But I do simmer into the groves as the minutes pass by and feel better and happier and get into the music more and more. It never, NEVER, fails.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 19, 2017 19:24:39 GMT -5
...I have never been able to tell a difference in sound due solid state warm up times. Personally I think it the listeners ears that warm up, not the equipment. And you may well be right, Gary.
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Post by Dan Laufman on Feb 19, 2017 20:04:53 GMT -5
Well, here's my take - If I want either the KEF LS50s or the Tekton Pendragons running with no subs, then the KT-120 tubes are definitely the RIGHT tool for the job in any tube amp that uses them. The 6550 tubes don't have the same bass. But WITH the subs in the mix, the 6550s are easier (MUCH easier) to get a good blend with. Of course, with a solid-state amp, you don't have the flexibility of tube rolling, but you DO get 90% as spacious a sound PROVIDED that you have the right preamp AND that you're willing to do the "speaker waltz" to find the right position. I'm about to reluctantly conclude that if one truly desires the best performance, it makes good sense to use SS preamps with SS power amps, and tube preamps with tube power amps. Now there MAY be some preamps that are equally light on their feet with both tubes and solid-state power amplification, but I haven't found any yet. Now let's talk VALUE. I'd put Emotiva's PT-100 up against anything I've heard in the way of preamps for under $4K and be confident that the contest would be really, truly CLOSE. Obviously, this holds true ONLY with solid-state power amps that are designed (primarily) for single-ended inputs. I don't think that anyone's fully-balanced power amps sound as good when used in single-ended input mode. But, of course, I haven't heard them all, and I could be surprised... Solid state power amps (talking traditional Class-A / AB here, with non-switching power supplies), seem to be getting closer and closer in sound (and value). Yeah, you could spend a LOT of $$$ if you tried on SS power amps, but why? I'm running a used Crown PSA-2 (about $400 on the used market) that sounds pretty darned good. Is it worth fixing when it dies? Probably not. I'll replace it with an Emotiva XPA of whatever gen, and come out ahead (and WITH a warranty) for not significantly more money. I haven't heard an Emotiva Gen. 3 with its switching power supply yet, but I have sufficient confidence in the company that I'd risk my scratch with a high confidence that I'd get a good deal and a good sound. Tube power amps are still all over the place - both in price and in sound. Some still cleave to the "traditional" tube sound, while others attempt neutrality. The latter, by the way, are NOT cheap. But there are brands (of new tube power amps) that are (relatively) inexpensive and that can be pretty darned neutral - the VTA models come to mind... But ultimately, I believe that performance (particularly in preamplifiers) is NOT positively correlated to price, to circuit configuration (balanced, unbalanced), or to brand. If you find a preamp whose sound you like, then be aware that to sound any better, you'd probably have to spend a LOT (really) more money. Since I am agnostic on balanced circuitry, and since my $299 Emotiva PT-100 sounds so sweet, dynamic, and transparent, I'm just not that interested in spending anything more on preamps. Would I try a Gen. 3 XSP-1? I might - but only for the bass management. To better their own PT-100 (regardless of pricing), Emotiva's going to have to work really, really HARD! So Big Dan, give whomever voiced the PT-100 a raise - they deserve it. One last thought and I'll shut up - It occurs to me that many (most?) who buy the PT-100 may never know how good it really is. I've tossed the thing into some HIGH end systems, and once it's warmed up (the mandatory 30 minutes), it's as good as any other preamp I've heard. Really... But, of course, this statement assumes that the preamp is playing into a 5K to 10K input impedance on the power amp - NOT 300K ohms! Within that limitation, WOW! Boomzilla You made my day Boomer! I too love the PT-100. I think it's the sleeper deal of the century! Well, maybe the decade! Thanks!!
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novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
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Post by novisnick on Feb 19, 2017 21:45:40 GMT -5
Well, here's my take - If I want either the KEF LS50s or the Tekton Pendragons running with no subs, then the KT-120 tubes are definitely the RIGHT tool for the job in any tube amp that uses them. The 6550 tubes don't have the same bass. But WITH the subs in the mix, the 6550s are easier (MUCH easier) to get a good blend with. Of course, with a solid-state amp, you don't have the flexibility of tube rolling, but you DO get 90% as spacious a sound PROVIDED that you have the right preamp AND that you're willing to do the "speaker waltz" to find the right position. I'm about to reluctantly conclude that if one truly desires the best performance, it makes good sense to use SS preamps with SS power amps, and tube preamps with tube power amps. Now there MAY be some preamps that are equally light on their feet with both tubes and solid-state power amplification, but I haven't found any yet. Now let's talk VALUE. I'd put Emotiva's PT-100 up against anything I've heard in the way of preamps for under $4K and be confident that the contest would be really, truly CLOSE. Obviously, this holds true ONLY with solid-state power amps that are designed (primarily) for single-ended inputs. I don't think that anyone's fully-balanced power amps sound as good when used in single-ended input mode. But, of course, I haven't heard them all, and I could be surprised... Solid state power amps (talking traditional Class-A / AB here, with non-switching power supplies), seem to be getting closer and closer in sound (and value). Yeah, you could spend a LOT of $$$ if you tried on SS power amps, but why? I'm running a used Crown PSA-2 (about $400 on the used market) that sounds pretty darned good. Is it worth fixing when it dies? Probably not. I'll replace it with an Emotiva XPA of whatever gen, and come out ahead (and WITH a warranty) for not significantly more money. I haven't heard an Emotiva Gen. 3 with its switching power supply yet, but I have sufficient confidence in the company that I'd risk my scratch with a high confidence that I'd get a good deal and a good sound. Tube power amps are still all over the place - both in price and in sound. Some still cleave to the "traditional" tube sound, while others attempt neutrality. The latter, by the way, are NOT cheap. But there are brands (of new tube power amps) that are (relatively) inexpensive and that can be pretty darned neutral - the VTA models come to mind... But ultimately, I believe that performance (particularly in preamplifiers) is NOT positively correlated to price, to circuit configuration (balanced, unbalanced), or to brand. If you find a preamp whose sound you like, then be aware that to sound any better, you'd probably have to spend a LOT (really) more money. Since I am agnostic on balanced circuitry, and since my $299 Emotiva PT-100 sounds so sweet, dynamic, and transparent, I'm just not that interested in spending anything more on preamps. Would I try a Gen. 3 XSP-1? I might - but only for the bass management. To better their own PT-100 (regardless of pricing), Emotiva's going to have to work really, really HARD! So Big Dan, give whomever voiced the PT-100 a raise - they deserve it. One last thought and I'll shut up - It occurs to me that many (most?) who buy the PT-100 may never know how good it really is. I've tossed the thing into some HIGH end systems, and once it's warmed up (the mandatory 30 minutes), it's as good as any other preamp I've heard. Really... But, of course, this statement assumes that the preamp is playing into a 5K to 10K input impedance on the power amp - NOT 300K ohms! Within that limitation, WOW! Boomzilla You made my day Boomer! I too love the PT-100. I think it's the sleeper deal of the century! Well, maybe the decade! Thanks!! There is a deal that is as good minimum in my opinion! Love the portability of the TA-100 when Im on the move and still want premium quality sound and versatility!!
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Post by rbk123 on Feb 19, 2017 22:11:29 GMT -5
I don't know if the MC-700 shares any of the same internals as the PT-100, but I do know the MC's pre-amp quality punches way above it's price tag as well.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 20, 2017 9:59:43 GMT -5
I thought from the beginning that all of Emotiva's "entry level" aka BASX stuff would be an exceptional value. They're trying to crack a market where Japanese AVRs mostly rule, and where the "economy sector" for "high-end" is already filled to bursting with brands such as Parasound, Monoprice, Outlaw, and others. Just to differentiate themselves from the crowd, the new products would need to be exceptional. I also thought from the beginning that the features offered in the PT-100, specifically, were the result of LOTS of good market research. The first-time audiophile (target market for these products) wants the vinyl option. Building in the phono input made sense. Although most don't listen to FM much anymore, inclusion of the FM tuner (costing but pennies) was an appealing "extra." Having sub outputs saves the buyer from needing future Y-cables to add subs. Including the DAC made sense for many reasons, and offering the (optional) bluetooth receiver makes the unit even more versatile. And, as novisnick points out, the TA-100 offers all the advantages of the PT with a built-in amp. Should the user outgrow the built-in amp, the TA also has preamp outputs for driving bigger amps. Wins in every design category! And the PT-100, specifically, not only meets its expectations but exceeds them handily - Just try the PT-100 with a true "high-end" system to hear for yourself! Now being the retro-nerd that I am, I couldn't resist "customizing" my PT-100 by switching the black end cheeks for some silver ones. In fact, I wish that Emotiva had offered the entire preamp in silver face, but it is what it is. And for $299, I'm certainly NOT complaining. Cheers - Boom
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Post by brubacca on Feb 20, 2017 12:28:04 GMT -5
I'm hoping that the Emersa 2ch pre is even better than you describe with HT Bypass.
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