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Post by teaman on Jan 29, 2019 18:07:49 GMT -5
Glad you are still enjoying the Heresys Glenn. I think they are among the best kept audio secrets. Paired with subs they sound as well as any full sized towers. The detail and imaging of the Heresy is pretty amazing. Maybe you will end up picking up a pair for yourself! As always interested as your story and journey continues.
I remember finding a home for Chuck Elliot's Klipsch Vertical Cornwall before he passed as a favor to him. he wanted to restore them himself but wasn't going to have the time and didn't want to see them fall by the wayside. The new owner still frequents the Klipsch forum and has completely restored them. Keeping Chuck's dream alive!
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Post by garbulky on Jan 29, 2019 18:26:56 GMT -5
Glad you are still enjoying the Heresys Glenn. I think they are among the best kept audio secrets. Paired with subs they sound as well as any full sized towers. The detail and imaging of the Heresy is pretty amazing. Maybe you will end up picking up a pair for yourself! As always interested as your story and journey continues. I remember finding a home for Chuck Elliot's Klipsch Vertical Cornwall before he passed as a favor to him. he wanted to restore them himself but wasn't going to have the time and didn't want to see them fall by the wayside. The new owner still frequents the Klipsch forum and has completely restored them. Keeping Chuck's dream alive! What a nice story. Thanks for sharing. I think that's beautiful that Chuck's speakers are still singing.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 29, 2019 19:25:13 GMT -5
I've had audio amigos advise me that I should set the crossover as closely as possible to the -3dB roll-off point of the satellites For the reason of maintaining the fully balanced discrete circuitry I run my L&R full range. But I don't wait until their -3db frequency to roll in the sub as I can hear the hand over. Particularly in music with trombones, tubas, plus of course bass guitars and even cellos. I used a 12db slope and I tuned the low pass filter by ear. I tried a 24 db slope and I could hear the upper edge where the subwoofer's response started to drop away. Later on I measured it using a simple SPL meter and it's in the 65 to 70 hz range. Not that I really care, just as long as it sounds good to me. Which is the trick as I see it, who cares what the text book says, it's what we like to listen to. Cheers Gary
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 29, 2019 19:55:13 GMT -5
Alas, I'll have to give my audio amiga, Annette, her Heresys back when I finish writing the Klipsch RP-600m review. But I'm enjoying them while they're visiting!
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Post by teaman on Jan 29, 2019 20:07:14 GMT -5
Alas, I'll have to give my audio amiga, Annette, her Heresys back when I finish writing the Klipsch RP-600m review. But I'm enjoying them while they're visiting! The fact that nice Heresys can be found so affordably now Boom, it may be an idea to keep an eye out!
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 29, 2019 22:13:58 GMT -5
Don't tempt me! LOL
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 29, 2019 22:28:18 GMT -5
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 29, 2019 22:44:27 GMT -5
still cant believe someone as fanatical about getting everything exact still hasnt embraced measuring...and just guesses I measure when I have the equipment to do so. I only recently (relatively speaking) acquired a UMIK-1 calibrated microphone and some software to run it. And in fact, I DO measure the acoustics of every speaker I review since I got the means to take those measurements. So your "just guesses" comment is no longer accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 3:41:43 GMT -5
Alas, I'll have to give my audio amiga, Annette, her Heresys back when I finish writing the Klipsch RP-600m review. But I'm enjoying them while they're visiting! Does your wife know about Annette? Not being nosy, just a little curious.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 30, 2019 4:44:59 GMT -5
We've been friends with them for years & years. Annette owns Klipsch La Scalas, Klipsch Heresys, and a pair of KEF monitors. She's very smart AND an audiophile. We all visit frequently for dinner & a listening session or a movie. That said, she's the only female audiophile I know, locally. She and her husband are great except that they nag me occasionally to join Mensa. Every Spring, we do a big crawfish boil in their back yard & point the La Scalas out through the patio doors. The Klipsches sound good even out in the yard! Fun folks.
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Post by musicfan on Jan 30, 2019 6:42:18 GMT -5
still cant believe someone as fanatical about getting everything exact still hasnt embraced measuring...and just guesses I measure when I have the equipment to do so. I only recently (relatively speaking) acquired a UMIK-1 calibrated microphone and some software to run it. And in fact, I DO measure the acoustics of every speaker I review since I got the means to take those measurements. So your "just guesses" comment is no longer accurate. If this were true you wouldn’t be asking where to set the crossover. You would be measuring which gives the best reposnse without any dips
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 30, 2019 7:00:35 GMT -5
Sorry, musicfan, but it isn't that simple. I might find that the flattest frequency response occurs with a 150 Hz. crossover, for example. But while that option provided the flattest measured frequency response, the transition from the 6.5" woofers on the satellites to the 15" woofers on the subs might be very audible due to the "speed difference" between the two. When a fast-responding cone (like the woofers on my Klipsch RP-600m speakers) transitions to a 15" cone that is also downward-firing, the sound of the music can shift abruptly, even if the frequency response is flat. Subwoofer placement, phase-matching, and crossover overlap can also affect the sound significantly with sometimes minimum changes in the frequency response. The idea that frequency response alone can be used to set crossover frequency is as wrong as saying that a violin, a guitar, and a trumpet are identical because they can all play the same note at the same volume. Now in fact, both my subwoofers and my satellites are capable of almost perfectly flat response for ANY crossover frequency between 45 and 150 Hz. But the result will SOUND significantly differently depending on where in that range the crossover is set. So frequency response alone is insufficient to properly voice the crossover. And there is no measuring device (other than the listener's ears) that can assess whether or not a specific crossover frequency provides minimum audibility. Cordially - Boomzilla PS: Once I find the crossover frequency that does provide the least-noticeable transition between satellites and subwoofers, I DO actually measure the frequency response, and then apply parametric equalization to flatten peaks.
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Post by musicfan on Jan 30, 2019 7:14:01 GMT -5
I’m done
Have fun. Old dogs new tricks I guess. Smh
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Post by Boomzilla on Jan 30, 2019 7:16:51 GMT -5
Shake your head all you want, musicfan. I told you the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2019 22:25:55 GMT -5
Boomsilly, I talked late this afternoon to your wife. She said she has never herd heard of Annette. Don't worry, I'll keep it a secret.
BTW 1: You've got to pass the test before they will let you join. Hint, answer to #1 is onomatopoeia. BTW 2: Believe it or not, the La Scalas will actually sound great outdoors. My Altec VOTTs were superb outdoors. BTW 3: I look forward to your review on the PR-600M. Your "Took three things:" advice looks perfect to me. I have owned Klipsch and the PR-600M looks like great dynamic sound in a new smaller speaker. Many folks with this speaker when mated correctly with a high quality dynamic sub will be really blown away!
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 2, 2019 20:19:33 GMT -5
Planning on this maybe: And the switch:
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 9, 2019 21:30:34 GMT -5
I just got through hooking up my Thiel 1.6s and listened to them directly from the amps with no crossover & no subs. Other than being a bit thin sounding in the bass, they did OK. Honestly, I think that the Thiel 1.6s truly NEED the crossover and the subs in my room. I'll hook'em up like that next chance I get.
The sealed subs may roll off more gradually than the ported ones in my room, but you can hear the roll-off more. To get the best of the sealed subs, some parametric equalization is needed. And at the frequencies you're boosting, you can't let that boost get to the ported satellite speakers. Therefore, upstream bass management isn't an option - it's a necessity.
The only potential option would be to NOT boost the bass, and then use the plate crossover on the subs to roll them in wherever the satellites roll off. Then you could increase the gain on the subs, again via their plate amps, to compensate for the sub's roll off and leave some overlap at the crossover point to help the satellites.
In lieu of the damned subwoofer crawl, I might be able to run the UMIK-1 mic at the listening position with REW and then run sweep-after-sweep, moving the sub one box-width each time. Then, the flattest curve could be selected and used for each of the two subs. Regardless of where they physically end up, I can use the delay dial on their plate amps to phase them perfectly to the speaker on the same channel.
So for the time being, I'll be keeping both subs and the crossover. The good news is that there's no noticeable difference in the speaker's sound with or without the crossover in the signal path. I was expecting a major improvement in sound quality without the crossover in the signal chain. Nope - I couldn't tell any difference (despite my expectation bias). So take THAT youse "subjective listening is useless" crowd! LOL
I'd also have to say that with the JL CR-1 crossover and the two subs active, the little $400 / pair Klipsch RP-600M speakers are every bit as good as the Thiel 1.6s! That amazes me (again, despite my expectation bias that the Thiels would wipe the floor with the Klipsches). Now it's possible that the little Klipsch speakers are just a synergistic match with the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers (and the Thiels aren't), but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. The best I've ever heard Thiels sound has been with dreadnaught-class, solid-state power amplifiers that exercise iron-fisted control over the woofers. My McIntosh MC352, for example, made the Thiels sit up and sing.
So I'll twiddle with the Thiels a bit more, and if I can't double their current performance by positioning, then it's back the the Klipsch speakers. Who'd have EVER thought that a $400 pair of bookshelf Klipsch horn-loaded speakers would outdo the Thiels at transparency and imaging? It's a mad, mad, mad world!
Boomzilla
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Post by teaman on Feb 9, 2019 22:15:49 GMT -5
My buddy (authorized dealer) has five pair of brand new B-Stock Klipsch Heresy III right now for $995 a pair shipped....half price.....food for thought!
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Post by garbulky on Feb 9, 2019 23:29:48 GMT -5
I just got through hooking up my Thiel 1.6s and listened to them directly from the amps with no crossover & no subs. Other than being a bit thin sounding in the bass, they did OK. Honestly, I think that the Thiel 1.6s truly NEED the crossover and the subs in my room. I'll hook'em up like that next chance I get. The sealed subs may roll off more gradually than the ported ones in my room, but you can hear the roll-off more. To get the best of the sealed subs, some parametric equalization is needed. And at the frequencies you're boosting, you can't let that boost get to the ported satellite speakers. Therefore, upstream bass management isn't an option - it's a necessity. The only potential option would be to NOT boost the bass, and then use the plate crossover on the subs to roll them in wherever the satellites roll off. Then you could increase the gain on the subs, again via their plate amps, to compensate for the sub's roll off and leave some overlap at the crossover point to help the satellites. In lieu of the damned subwoofer crawl, I might be able to run the UMIK-1 mic at the listening position with REW and then run sweep-after-sweep, moving the sub one box-width each time. Then, the flattest curve could be selected and used for each of the two subs. Regardless of where they physically end up, I can use the delay dial on their plate amps to phase them perfectly to the speaker on the same channel. So for the time being, I'll be keeping both subs and the crossover. The good news is that there's no noticeable difference in the speaker's sound with or without the crossover in the signal path. I was expecting a major improvement in sound quality without the crossover in the signal chain. Nope - I couldn't tell any difference (despite my expectation bias). So take THAT youse "subjective listening is useless" crowd! LOL I'd also have to say that with the JL CR-1 crossover and the two subs active, the little $400 / pair Klipsch RP-600M speakers are every bit as good as the Thiel 1.6s! That amazes me (again, despite my expectation bias that the Thiels would wipe the floor with the Klipsches). Now it's possible that the little Klipsch speakers are just a synergistic match with the Emotiva PA-1 amplifiers (and the Thiels aren't), but I'm not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. The best I've ever heard Thiels sound has been with dreadnaught-class, solid-state power amplifiers that exercise iron-fisted control over the woofers. My McIntosh MC352, for example, made the Thiels sit up and sing. So I'll twiddle with the Thiels a bit more, and if I can't double their current performance by positioning, then it's back the the Klipsch speakers. Who'd have EVER thought that a $400 pair of bookshelf Klipsch horn-loaded speakers would outdo the Thiels at transparency and imaging? It's a mad, mad, mad world! Boomzilla It's a lot easier to do the subwoofer crawl.... stick the sub on the couch. Heck if you dont want to lift it, put it in front of the couch using your sliders. And just walk around. Your way has you moving the subwoofer all around when you could just move it in front of the couch. The kind of info you get from that would be substantial.
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Post by Boomzilla on Feb 10, 2019 5:25:09 GMT -5
My buddy (authorized dealer) has five pair of brand new B-Stock Klipsch Heresy III right now for $995 a pair shipped....half price.....food for thought! Thanks teaman - That's a bargain if you want Heresy speakers. But for the same $1K, I could buy a pair of Emotiva T2s - and not need a subwoofer like I would if I got the Klipsches. No, the T2s aren't as high an efficiency as the Klipsches, nor are they as easy to drive - but they do image better, and (at least, in my room) have much better bass. And also, thanks garbulky. The "move the sub to the listening position" option wasn't feasible with the big, dual 18" monster that I had, but the 15" models are much lighter. I'm thinking that the way to do this would be to get a pack of post-it notes & as I move, leave a post-it every foot or so with a numerical score compared to some "reference position." Perhaps the reference, or "index" position should be in the center of the listening wall? Or should it be the corner? The attendant issue is that I'll be using not one but TWO subs. Will the two "best" positions (where a single sub would excite the least room resonances) cause worse interferences between the subs when they're both in operation? Keep in mind that these subs will be right and left channel ones, not a monophonic HT output. I'd think that the two best positions for a single sub would also be the two best positions for dual subs, but I may be overlooking something?
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