|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 18, 2020 11:44:59 GMT -5
This morning, I dropped off the turntable tools and vinyl loaned to me by a good buddy to review a turntable (I'm not normally a purveyor of vinyl). I also loaned him my Auralic Vega DAC for him to play with. I dropped all these things on his doorstep (after calling and letting him know that I was coming) so we didn't risk any contact.
I also dropped off a gift of some CDs in a grocery sack that I hung on the doorknob of another buddy. I didn't want to call or ring his doorbell because they sometimes sleep late.
I worked on some client drawings this morning and plan to ride my bicycle this afternoon.
Social distancing isn't so bad after all...
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
|
Post by novisnick on Mar 18, 2020 13:20:08 GMT -5
This morning, I dropped off the turntable tools and vinyl loaned to me by a good buddy to review a turntable (I'm not normally a purveyor of vinyl). I also loaned him my Auralic Vega DAC for him to play with. I dropped all these things on his doorstep (after calling and letting him know that I was coming) so we didn't risk any contact. I also dropped off a gift of some CDs in a grocery sack that I hung on the doorknob of another buddy. I didn't want to call or ring his doorbell because they sometimes sleep late. I worked on some client drawings this morning and plan to ride my bicycle this afternoon. Social distancing isn't so bad after all... Did you communicate that fact as to weather or not you disinfected said gear? Even though he may also take precautions, the virus may be able to survive on surfaces.( most likely do ) It wouldn’t be a kind gesture to deliver a Trojan horse. Damn Greeks! LOL
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 18, 2020 15:31:01 GMT -5
All my friends are being just as cautious as I am, but thanks for asking!
|
|
|
Post by dsonyay on Mar 19, 2020 11:39:12 GMT -5
All my friends are being just as cautious as I am, but thanks for asking! Trying to be. But have to work... The river must be kept clear for traffic
|
|
|
Post by dsonyay on Mar 19, 2020 17:11:45 GMT -5
And with the discovery that Quinine may be helpful to reducing the severity of the China Virus.. I'm taking in extra Gin and Tonics.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 19, 2020 18:18:12 GMT -5
I like that idea so much I think I'm going to make myself one too!
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 20, 2020 3:09:27 GMT -5
I listened to the system listed below for several hours this afternoon at volumes ranging from fairly quiet (Beethoven's "Pastorale" symphony) to pretty loud (a whole Boston album). The NuForce DDA-120 has lots of detail with the T2 speakers, but very little harmonic richness. Sometime today, if I have time, I'm taking the NuForce back out of the system & trying out the T2s with the PA-1 amps. I've used this combo before, but almost always with subs. I'm curious to see how the T2s can fare without bass augmentation.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 21, 2020 22:14:05 GMT -5
Yanked the NuForce (not a good match with the T2s), But with the Audio-gd DAC & preamp in the system, it sounds almost as good as using the Auralic Vega DAC/preamp combo. With the subs running the deep bass response is just plain scary. If I end up "sheltering in place" for long enough, I'll just rebuild the Dahlquist LP-1 myself. I'd need some parts, but if I don't buy them via Amazon, Mouser, Digi-Key or Parts-Express should still be delivering.
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 22, 2020 6:00:11 GMT -5
And out of curiosity, I shut off ALL of the DSP features on my streamer, and was shocked by how much better the system sounded. So apparently, even a single band of DSP in the system can have deleterious effects on the sound quality. Since the DSP is happening in the digital domain, this somewhat surprised me. I had previously believed that fully digital DSP was "free" in terms of reduction in sound quality. Analog equalization is usually bad for sound quality if nothing else due to parts variability. But I didn't realize what a negative effect DSP could have until now.
So might I ask the Lounge cognoscenti WHY DSP damages the overall clarity of the sound? Is it an artifact of the specific DSP engine used, or is it inherent in all DSP?
Thanks - Boom
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Mar 22, 2020 12:10:05 GMT -5
Interesting, I was running Roon's "Convolution" feature with filters from REW. and it measured great. I was exploring "room correction" but I have a fabulous room now (40'x 20'x 18', few parallel surfaces).
However, as always, measurements aren't the same thing as sonics, and my setup sounds better overall with Roon's DSP features off.
BTW, the Maggies needed very little "correction" to measure and sound great in my room, despite KeithL's opinions on dipole speakers.
I suspect Dirac would present the same sonic deterioration - measures great, sounds meh.
|
|
|
Post by foggy1956 on Mar 22, 2020 13:44:31 GMT -5
I've built filters with both Dirac and REW, I keep going back to reference stereo on my xmc-1. YMMV
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 22, 2020 15:21:51 GMT -5
Paul W. Klipsch firmly believed, based on research done by Bell Telephone Laboratories, that the minimum number of speakers needed to fool the brain into thinking it was hearing a live performance was three. Therefore, way back when (long before the advent of home theater), he designed a box that would take right and left stereo speaker-level inputs, and synthesize a monophonic center channel without significantly damaging the stereo separation of the right and left speakers. The box would output a volume-controlled "line level" signal capable of driving a center power amplifier (and speaker). About a decade ago, I built one of those, and still have it. I never even used it because I found an AVR at a yard sale that made the box academic. However, I have a spare amplifier, a spare center speaker, and a curiosity about how the setup might actually sound, using higher-quality components than an AVR can offer. So, being of inquisitive mind and foolish disposition, I plan to try out the concept and I'll let you know what I think of it. Attachments:
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs
Honorary Emofest Scribe
Posts: 14,762
|
Post by klinemj on Mar 22, 2020 15:39:38 GMT -5
Interesting, I was running Roon's "Convolution" feature with filters from REW. and it measured great. I was exploring "room correction" but I have a fabulous room now (40'x 20'x 18', few parallel surfaces). However, as always, measurements aren't the same thing as sonics, and my setup sounds better overall with Roon's DSP features off. BTW, the Maggies needed very little "correction" to measure and sound great in my room, despite KeithL's opinions on dipole speakers. I suspect Dirac would present the same sonic deterioration - measures great, sounds meh. I found the same with my Maggies, and as for Dirac - I think it's great for multichannel setup, but for 2 channel I don't use any correction at all. Mark
|
|
|
Post by audiobill on Mar 22, 2020 15:50:07 GMT -5
Here's my thinking:
REW, Dirac, whatever you choose produces filters that deliver a flat in-room response.
That flat response sounds like ass to most people, so a custom "user edited House Curve" (read tone controls) is needed that typically pumps up bass by about 6db and pulls down highs by another 6db, 12db in all, to sound "pleasant" , to use KeithL's phrase. Totally undoing all those precise filters.
So, we've just done a ton of processing in the digital domain that "shouldn't matter" but somehow does to trained listeners.
In the end, what's the point of all this? If it doesn't sound good, it's no good.
|
|
novisnick
EmoPhile
CEO Secret Monoblock Society
Posts: 27,230
|
Post by novisnick on Mar 22, 2020 15:52:21 GMT -5
Interesting, I was running Roon's "Convolution" feature with filters from REW. and it measured great. I was exploring "room correction" but I have a fabulous room now (40'x 20'x 18', few parallel surfaces). However, as always, measurements aren't the same thing as sonics, and my setup sounds better overall with Roon's DSP features off. BTW, the Maggies needed very little "correction" to measure and sound great in my room, despite KeithL's opinions on dipole speakers. I suspect Dirac would present the same sonic deterioration - measures great, sounds meh. I found the same with my Maggies, and as for Dirac - I think it's great for multichannel setup, but for 2 channel I don't use any correction at all. Mark Exactly! 👍
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 24, 2020 10:04:40 GMT -5
And by the bye... I"m really (REALLY) starting to appreciate how good the Emotiva T2 speakers are. Anything (and I mean ANYTHING) that you do or change upstream in the front end of the system is INSTANTLY revealed, and very starkly, by these speakers. With my Audio-gd DAC19, the T2s sound dark (lower-midrange centric), rich (lots of detail and weight - particularly with voices), and slightly rolled off in the high treble. But with my Auralic Vega DAC, they sound really, really extended in the highs (light & airy in audiophool speak), and with a slightly less weighty bass. Used with my Emotiva Airmotiv S15 subs, the bass sounds absolutely apocalyptic with such fare as Yulunga (Spirit Dance) from Dead Can Dance absolutely shaking the room.
The T2s are bringing a lot of fun to my listening, and I find myself not only dragging out music that I haven't listened to in years to enjoy again, but also exploring the depths of my music library looking for things I ripped but never yet listened to.
But the revelatory transparency of the T2s can be a curse as well as a blessing. Pair them with a boring front end, and they'll smack you in the face for your cheapskate foolishness. In my experience, the T2s have not done well with AVRs, with pro amps, or with a lot of Japanese run-of-the-mill electronics (Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, etc.). I'm sure that statement will bring a ton of hate mail, saying how YOUR particular Yamaha, Pioneer, Sony, Onkyo, Denon, etc. sounds ravishing with your T2s - and I believe you. But there is a LOT of sonic variability not only between Japanese brands, but also within models within the same brand. You might get lucky and find a good match, but the greater odds are that you won't. I've even noticed that a lot of tube amps just don't boogie with the T2s, my Heathkit Franken-amps being a happy exception.
I'm not trying to say that the T2 speakers are picky about amplifiers - quite the opposite. The speakers sound "good" with most any amp. But the T2s will perform at a completely different level (far, far better than just "good") with some amplifiers. I have a limited number of amps in the house just now, but from what I've heard:
Yamaha Aventage RX-A760 = No. No dynamics, no bass, no excitement Optoma NuForce DDA120 integrated amplifier (class D) = No. Once warmed up for 10 minutes, this amp sounds flat, non-dynamic and just plain boring with the T2s Ashly FTX-2001 "pro" MOSFET power amplifier = No. This amp sounds very 3-dimensional, but the treble sounds very rolled off (may be an artifact of amplifier aging). Heathkit 12-watt tube mono-blocks = OH YES! The frequency response is uneven, but the dynamics and detail make up for it - not for use at high volumes Emotiva PA-1 mono-blocks (class D) = YES! Keep a simple food chain upstream, and these work almost as well as the Heathkit and display far more power and poise
In fact, I was so disappointed with the Yamaha AVR and the T2s that I sold the Yamaha (and was actually thinking of selling the T2s, until I heard them again with better amps). So my "let's try some new speakers" fever is subsided for the time being, and I may yet try out some more power amps to see how good the T2s can actually sound. Anyone willing to loan me your Mark Levinson?
Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 27, 2020 12:45:11 GMT -5
Well, I finally figured out why the Crown XLS series amps sound so bad:
All the XLS series Crowns have an extra A-D / D-A conversion; how else could they offer all the DSP functions that they do! Their input converters (both of them) have lower specs than an AVR. How else can Crown price the amps as low as they do? Good sound quality is never a requirement for "pro" amps - only good reliability, good stability into all loads, and a cheap price.
The dual dirt-cheap A-D and D-A converters in the Crown XLS amps not only explain the poor sound quality but also give lie to the amp's defenders' claims that this is a top-notch, home-audio-quality amplifier. It isn't. It never has been. It never will be.
That said, I can see how some people, including the audio journalist who champions them, actually like the sound of the Crown XLS series. If you're in that group, then I congratulate you on having found an amplifier that you like at a bargain price. I don't share your enthusiasm, but everyone's ears are different. Even based on the published specifications, there ARE much better amplifiers on the market than the Crowns. And to my ears, regardless of published specs, those other amplifiers sound not just better, but in many cases, far better.
Boomzilla
|
|
|
Post by Boomzilla on Mar 31, 2020 6:49:17 GMT -5
And just a FYI - Don't bother trying to equalize deeper bass out of the Emotiva T2 speakers. You can pump up the jams all you want - the speakers just DO NOT go any lower than they do sans any equalization at all. And I also think that Emotiva's "-3dB @ 35 Hz." spec is somewhat optimistic. In my room, I'm getting maybe 45 Hz. and certainly no less than 40.
And this brings me to a question, please - I'd like to equalize the bass going to the subwoofers only. In other words, I want the full-range preamp output to be split into high and low pass legs, somewhere between 75 and 100 Hz. The high-pass section will go to the Emotiva T2 speakers with no equalization at all. The low-pass leg, I'd like to EQ for flatter response. I see two options - analog or digital EQ. To do digital, I'd need a "Mini-DSP" with an additional A-D and D-A conversion. But since this is bass only, it shouldn't hurt the sound quality. To EQ in the analog domain, I'd need a stereo ⅓ octave analog equalizer. Any suggestions on which would be best?
Thanks - Boomzilla
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,961
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 31, 2020 9:32:39 GMT -5
The MiniDSP is going to give you a LOT more options - and probably FAR better performance.
Very simple analog Equalizers can be built with relatively few parts. This allows you to both use high quality parts and minimize the amount of active circuitry involved. (So, for example, a 12 dB/octave high-pass filter, with a turnover frequency of 47 Hz, would be relatively simple to design and build.)
However, bass management, and subwoofer room correction, often call for sharp filters, and very precise frequency tuning. This is difficult to achieve with analog circuitry, and tends to require complex, multi-stage filters, with lots of precision parts, and lots of active stages.
This makes it difficult and expensive to get right... and even more so if you want the option of tuning and tweaking it by turning a knob. In contrast, a DSP can be programmed for any slope or frequency you want, with great precision, and can be easily changed if you choose to do so. This makes a DSP a far better choice in this situation.
I should also point out that, if you were hoping to use an analog equalizer, a PARAMETRIC equalizer would be the choice.... Graphic equalizers, and especially those with that many bands, include massive amounts of circuitry you won't be using, and tend to perform extremely poorly. A five-band parametric equalizer will give you far more precise control than all the bands in a third-octave graphic equalizer... (All else being equal a PEQ will also add far less distortion and phase shift... I wouldn't even consider using a graphic equalizer in an application like this.)
However, a DSP-based system is going to give you even more flexibility, and probably better performance anyway....
And just a FYI - Don't bother trying to equalize deeper bass out of the Emotiva T2 speakers. You can pump up the jams all you want - the speakers just DO NOT go any lower than they do sans any equalization at all. And I also think that Emotiva's "-3dB @ 35 Hz." spec is somewhat optimistic. In my room, I'm getting maybe 45 Hz. and certainly no less than 40. And this brings me to a question, please - I'd like to equalize the bass going to the subwoofers only. In other words, I want the full-range preamp output to be split into high and low pass legs, somewhere between 75 and 100 Hz. The high-pass section will go to the Emotiva T2 speakers with no equalization at all. The low-pass leg, I'd like to EQ for flatter response. I see two options - analog or digital EQ. To do digital, I'd need a "Mini-DSP" with an additional A-D and D-A conversion. But since this is bass only, it shouldn't hurt the sound quality. To EQ in the analog domain, I'd need a stereo ⅓ octave analog equalizer. Any suggestions on which would be best? Thanks - Boomzilla
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 9,961
|
Post by KeithL on Mar 31, 2020 9:49:37 GMT -5
It looks like a nice amplifier... and I have no doubt that it will outlive us all....
However... 450 watts/channel... for $9k... with a spec'ed damping factor of 40... I think I'll pass. (Or, lets say, I think I'd much rather have an XPA-DR2.)
I do agree that it takes excellent engineering to deliver good low THD through a transformer... And, for that matter, it must have incredibly good transformers to deliver a damping factor even as high as 40...
And, likewise, it's cool that they can deliver the same rated power into 2 Ohms, 4 Ohms, or 8 Ohms (although it would impress me more if I had 2 Ohm speakers).
And I'm sure it sounds just fine (probably; as long as your speakers aren't too fussy about damping). But, yes, it is lovely, and I very much like the big blue meters.
As for "pride of ownership"... I guess that means different things to different folks... Personally, I buy my audio gear to actually listen to...
So, to me, how it sounds is my only major concern...
And not to impress myself... or anyone else... (But, yeah, I would love to see those big blue meters on an XPA-DR2...)
Sorry, KeithL, read and weep - from a recent McIntosh review in Stereophile: “Summing up the McIntosh MC462's measured performance is easy: It is an extraordinarily well-engineered, exceptionally powerful amplifier.—John Atkinson” As all their products are.....tube as well as ss. To many, pride of ownership counts. Depends on whether you think of your system as appliances or instruments.
|
|