KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 10, 2022 16:15:08 GMT -5
Normally I would say no - because things like keyboards and mice generate a tiny amount of actual traffic in USB terms. Even the combined traffic from a USB HDD and a DAC should be a pretty light load on a high-speed USB port. HOWEVER sometimes it's not the traffic but how it's handled that causes the problems.
The mouse "becomes balky" because of excessive port latency. In simple terms "the port isn't servicing the request from the mouse because it's busy doing something else".
And, if something else connected to the USB port, or even to something else on the computer, is not behaving properly, this can be a problem.
One thing that often causes this on Windows computers is funky graphics card drivers.
This would have to be pretty bad to affect a DAC (but it would also have to be quite bad to affect a mouse).
(Let's just say that a long enough hesitation to be noticed with the mouse could cause a drop-out or bobble in the audio as well.)
There are utilities that can measure or monitor this for Windows - and I'm sure there are for Apple computers as well.
And, to some degree, they can be mitigated by adjusting various settings.
HOWEVER there is an easy way to get an idea. Copy some music files from the USB HDD to the internal hard drive, disconnect the external HDD, and play the files from the internal drive. If this is the sort of problem you're having this should at least affect it enough to be noticeable.
You could also try connecting the DAC to different ports. On some older computers some USB ports are high-speed while some are slow ports intended just for keyboards and mice. Some of those slower ports may actually be slow enough to have problems with audio. (Any port that is USB 2.0 or faster should be fine... but, on a really old computer, some ports may be USB 1.0 or USB 1.1.)
Also, depending on how many USB ports you have, some may simply be better than others, or use different interrupts, and it's easy enough to try different ones.
Note that, if you were having this sort of problem, I would expect it to manifest as occasional obvious ticks or dropouts, or perhaps even distortion. It is unlikely that data issues of any sort would have any sort of effect on things like imaging and sound stage. That is usually tied to things like phase shift... Which would be more likely to be a side effect of something like poor quality filtering or resampling (somewhere in software). (For example a result of the audio being resampled because you're not really in exclusive mode.)
Could the Mac mini have a discombobulated USB output? It's certainly possible. Is it worth pulling out my Windows laptop, loading the driver, and comparing? Not to me. If minor twiddling doesn't bring the USB performance up to the level of TOSLINK, I'll just use optical. I will say that the Mac mini's USB buss has a lot going on... The incoming bits from the external USB HDD are on one of the sockets, another of the sockets is connected to a DVD-RW, a third socket is connected to a wireless mouse, and a fourth USB port is connected to something else. The DAC is on the fifth port. This traffic should not overwhelm the USB buss, but I do notice that sometimes the mouse becomes balky in its movements. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 10, 2022 16:34:34 GMT -5
Easy to assess the USB port load - I can unplug everything but the external HDD and the output to the DAC & see if things are better. It's also possible that some software program has its greedy little hooks into the USB port wasting clock cycles and interfering with normal traffic. I'll check that too.
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Post by leonski on Jun 11, 2022 1:13:11 GMT -5
In the mac OS? go to Applications: Utilities: System Monitor.
You'll see Everything that's running and perhaps stuff that could interfere in some fashion with USB output....
Unplug might leave something running?
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 11, 2022 5:33:46 GMT -5
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hemster
Global Moderator
Particle Manufacturer
...still listening... still watching
Posts: 51,951
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Post by hemster on Jun 11, 2022 9:38:26 GMT -5
Budget version of R2D2?  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 11, 2022 9:49:59 GMT -5
A "double-diaphragm" pump (known to operators as a "chugga-chugga"}, The air hose hooks in the center to power the pump. Valves on each side in the center move the connecting rod back and forth, flexing diaphragms on both sides. A series of balls in the top and bottom allow one side to fill while the other side discharges. Cheap, durable, and portable, these are used to pick up spills.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 11, 2022 18:10:31 GMT -5
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Post by leonski on Jun 12, 2022 17:13:26 GMT -5
A "double-diaphragm" pump (known to operators as a "chugga-chugga"}, The air hose hooks in the center to power the pump. Valves on each side in the center move the connecting rod back and forth, flexing diaphragms on both sides. A series of balls in the top and bottom allow one side to fill while the other side discharges. Cheap, durable, and portable, these are used to pick up spills. It's OK, Boom, you can call 'em check valves...... |
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Post by brubacca on Jun 12, 2022 19:46:01 GMT -5
My last company used to sell these. Our brand had interchangeable air motor internals (about 3 or 4 for the whole range) and the ability to replace the seals in the air motor. It is quite simple operation. Could.t generate a lot of suction lift though. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 12, 2022 20:39:43 GMT -5
What I liked about the pumps is that you could use different ones to pick up acidic material without pump corrosion. And since there was no "motor" on the pump, it was able to pump up flammables without the pump becoming an ignition source. In fact, we used one once to recover a liquefied flammable gas pool in a dike. Despite the LFG vaporizing like crazy, the little pump just sucked it up & we then sent it on to a compressor suction KO pot (where it was vaporized) so that it could be compressed, recondensed, and sent to another storage sphere. It was a hazardous operation, but had ignition occurred, we were far enough back.
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Post by leonski on Jun 13, 2022 0:04:46 GMT -5
Our facilities had many acid pumps.
Sulfuric? Peroxide (H2O2 @high concentration) Hydrochloric? HydroFluoric?
The trick in my field was metering. Flows were important and had to be calibrated when system was PM'd......
they used mountains of Teflon with special elastomer seals for this kind of gear. I was never part of the maintenance crew
of this so have less than stellar knowledge. Most toxic plumbing was also 'double contained' to minimize the leak disaster potential.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2022 0:04:50 GMT -5
I think I have some deleted software on my Mac mini music machine that’s fouling up the usb buss. The USB mouse on the machine becomes jersey in its operation and a reboot temporarily fixes it. I find scraps of Adobe junk running in the background even though there are no Adobe programs currently installed on the machine. The Roon remote still periodically disconnects from the core.
The simplest way to fix this may be to totally wipe the machine, reinstall Mac-OS, and then reinstall the only two apps I want on this machine - Roon & REW. I guess I also need a ripper? Maybe EAC?
Boom
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Post by leonski on Jun 13, 2022 0:07:18 GMT -5
Couple 'mac' things?
Have you gone thru system monitor and looked?
Also?
Make a backup before you start blitzing the drive......
And for that matter? Make sure you can get at the OS from Apple....Might have trouble, for example, if you wanted maybe....10.6 or so?
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2022 10:25:11 GMT -5
Couple 'mac' things? Have you gone thru system monitor and looked? Also? Make a backup before you start blitzing the drive...... And for that matter? Make sure you can get at the OS from Apple....Might have trouble, for example, if you wanted maybe....10.6 or so? System monitor is where I noticed all the Adobe stuff. But that wasn’t the core problem because the mouse is still flakey. There’s nothing on the machine that I need. The latest OS will work, as will the latest versions of Roon, Room Equalization Wizard, and Exact Audio Copy. |
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Post by garbulky on Jun 13, 2022 11:03:47 GMT -5
Couple 'mac' things? Have you gone thru system monitor and looked? Also? Make a backup before you start blitzing the drive...... And for that matter? Make sure you can get at the OS from Apple....Might have trouble, for example, if you wanted maybe....10.6 or so? System monitor is where I noticed all the Adobe stuff. But that wasn’t the core problem because the mouse is still flakey. There’s nothing on the machine that I need. The latest OS will work, as will the latest versions of Roon, Room Equalization Wizard, and Exact Audio Copy. Are you running off a USB port strip? If so, make sure if it is a powered USB port that The power cable is secure. Then disconnect the USB strip and reconnect it. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2022 13:03:12 GMT -5
There is no extension strip. All devices are plugged directly into the computer. The USB HDD is self powered (not powered via the USB port) and uses USB only for data transfer.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 13, 2022 14:04:30 GMT -5
The way your mouse is acting certainly suggests that there's something wrong... (I doubt the Adobe updaters have much to do with it... but you can't really rule anything out.) (And things you have UNINSTALLED can actually cause bigger problems because they may leave "broken bits that are still trying to run".) Reinstalling everything from scratch really is the best way to ensure that nothing is causing problems. Even if you uninstall programs they frequently leave bits and pieces installed that can still cause problems. In addition to that, many programs, and especially audio and USB programs, will change configuration settings when you install them... And they rarely set those back to the defaults when you uninstall them. There are literally thousands of settings in a computer - many of which you cannot see or change from the standard control panels. (And many programs will want to alter the priorities on the USB bus for various reasons.) Also... just a side note. Someone else mentioned USB hubs. An external USB hub is a totally separate device... and some work far better than others. (This is NOT just a matter of power. A USB hub is a sort of router for USB and different ones perform quite differently.) It's also worth knowing that, even if you don't use an external hub, there are one or more "root hubs" on your motherboard... And those may also differ in performance. This is why, for example, on some computers, the ports on the front panel may work better or worse than the ports on the rear panel. There are also differences in timing that are hardware-related. And, as I mentioned, there are interrupt priorities that can affect seemingly unrelated devices. (For example flaws in graphics card drivers are notorious for causing audio problems, because they may "steal priority" from the audio processes.) In order to get the best possible performance from your hardware... Wipe everything and reinstall the operating system... Then update any major drivers, like graphics cared drivers, to the latest version. That should enable the hardware to perform as well as it is ever going to. There are programs that can figure out and perform further optimizations - but they shouldn't be necessary - and may not really help anyway. And, yes, you will need some sort of ripping program... On a PC the preferred choice would be dBPowerAmp... However I don't know if that exists for the Mac... and EAC should also work well... (But, while there's certainly no problem putting that on the same machine, remember that it CAN be on a different machine if you prefer.) Also, another FYI... I really can't say for sure on a Mac... But, on a Windows computer, USB drivers only "load" when the device they're associated with is connected. This means that you can only SEE drivers associated with devices you have connected. So, if a certain device is not connected, you may have outdated or unused drivers that go with it that are still installed, but are theoretically "not doing anything". But, without the device being connected, they won't show up in lists of "running processes". I think I have some deleted software on my Mac mini music machine that’s fouling up the usb buss. The USB mouse on the machine becomes jersey in its operation and a reboot temporarily fixes it. I find scraps of Adobe junk running in the background even though there are no Adobe programs currently installed on the machine. The Roon remote still periodically disconnects from the core. The simplest way to fix this may be to totally wipe the machine, reinstall Mac-OS, and then reinstall the only two apps I want on this machine - Roon & REW. I guess I also need a ripper? Maybe EAC? Boom |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jun 13, 2022 14:13:51 GMT -5
My Mac experts in the local McIntosh users group assure me that Adobe IS the most likely culprit. Adobe software of recent origin is written for Windows OS and then (often clumsily) ported to Mac. Unlike virtually all other Mac programs that uninstall by simply dragging the program icon to the trash, Adobe uninstalls MUST use a version-specific Adobe uninstall program. In some cases, multiple Adobe uninstall processes are required to get all traces of Adobe software off a machine. This is particularly true if you’ve installed newer versions of Adobe programs over the older versions.
Adobe software has powerful features, but getting a divorce is expensive and complicated.
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Post by novisnick on Jun 13, 2022 16:02:37 GMT -5
My Mac experts in the local McIntosh users group assure me that Adobe IS the most likely culprit. Adobe software of recent origin is written for Windows OS and then (often clumsily) ported to Mac. Unlike virtually all other Mac programs that uninstall by simply dragging the program icon to the trash, Adobe uninstalls MUST use a version-specific Adobe uninstall program. In some cases, multiple Adobe uninstall processes are required to get all traces of Adobe software off a machine. This is particularly true if you’ve installed newer versions of Adobe programs over the older versions. Adobe software has powerful features, but getting a divorce is expensive and complicated. Divorce often has many hidden costs! 😳 |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jun 13, 2022 16:57:47 GMT -5
Adobe sort has you over a barrel... since there really isn't an alternative that's really comparable to it. I would also agree that it's messy and whatever the opposite of "lightweight" is... (And, yes, the days are long past when the Apple version was prioritized over the Windows version...) But I don't think it would be very high on my list in the context of USB issues. But, now, Audition is an audio program, so I wouldn't be surprised if that would cause timing issues with USB AUDIO output. (That's because it has drivers that need to be inserted into the audio signal path in order to work.) So, if reinstalling everything solves the problem, but you need Adobe, try leaving Audition off if you don't specifically use that. My Mac experts in the local McIntosh users group assure me that Adobe IS the most likely culprit. Adobe software of recent origin is written for Windows OS and then (often clumsily) ported to Mac. Unlike virtually all other Mac programs that uninstall by simply dragging the program icon to the trash, Adobe uninstalls MUST use a version-specific Adobe uninstall program. In some cases, multiple Adobe uninstall processes are required to get all traces of Adobe software off a machine. This is particularly true if you’ve installed newer versions of Adobe programs over the older versions. Adobe software has powerful features, but getting a divorce is expensive and complicated. Divorce often has many hidden costs! 😳 |
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