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Post by leonski on Jul 20, 2023 20:01:05 GMT -5
I would suggest that the PERFECT speaker for any given room would need less fooling with to sound even better......
Lot of room there, but that's why going to LISTEN and if possible arranging for a month in YOUR home and listening space is VITAL.....
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 21, 2023 5:22:00 GMT -5
And since a few may be curious, my “retirement system” consists of:
Yamaha blu-ray player
Roon on a HP laptop controlled by Roon Remote on an iPad
Qobuz streaming
Emotiva Stealth DAC directly driving
Emotiva PA-1 mono blocks into
GoldenEar Triton 3+ speakers with onboard self-powered subs
Note the deliberate absence of a preamp and the absence of DSP (I use the tone controls of the DAC rather than the Roon DSP).
Sounds good - very simple - easy to move when the time comes - versatile enough to work in whatever future room I install it in.
I’m currently finding that +1 on my the treble tone control is sufficient to overcome my high-frequency hearing loss. All is well!
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Post by marcl on Jul 21, 2023 8:02:58 GMT -5
Relevant to the speaker review topic, Robert Harley - Editor of The Absolute Sound - moved to a new home and built a new listening room in which he will undoubtedly review speakers. Here's Part 1, the room. In Part 2 he describes what has to be >$1M in components ... many of which will raise a lot of discussion of how ANYONE would think those components actually do what they say they do, let alone pay a fortune to have them ...
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Jul 21, 2023 11:31:05 GMT -5
Relevant to the speaker review topic, Robert Harley - Editor of The Absolute Sound - moved to a new home and built a new listening room in which he will undoubtedly review speakers. Here's Part 1, the room. In Part 2 he describes what has to be >$1M in components ... many of which will raise a lot of discussion of how ANYONE would think those components actually do what they say they do, let alone pay a fortune to have them ... I met him years ago at a Stereophile Audio Show in NYC. Bought his book, Complete Guide to High End Audio which he signed and I still have. Good guy. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 21, 2023 12:47:45 GMT -5
I’m currently writing my own paper on listening room construction and (more importantly) optimization. The vast majority of us will never have the chance to design a listening room or theater room from scratch. So most of my paper will be about how to optimize the room you DO have.
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Post by marcl on Jul 21, 2023 13:06:31 GMT -5
I’m currently writing my own paper on listening room construction and (more importantly) optimization. The vast majority of us will never have the chance to design a listening room or theater room from scratch. So most of my paper will be about how to optimize the room you DO have. Very anxious to read this! In my case, I came as close as I ever will be to doing this when I bought my place 40 years ago. There is a rectangle 27x13ft space just inside and right of the front door that is meant to be living room/dining room. There's an entrance by the stairs at the front of the house, an entrance in the middle from a hallway, and an entrance at the other end from the kitchen ... all on the same side of the long wall, with the other side of the long wall shared (with a block wall in between) with the two units beside me. There are large windows at each end. Being 28 and single at the time, I figured I could do what I wanted with this space, so I built an inner wall all the way around except for the middle entrance ... yes, even covering the windows. It's 5/8 particle board attached with small blocks of 2x4 only at the top, middle and bottom of each board (i.e. not full height studs). I sandwiched mineral wool between the particle board and the blocks as I put them up and so the 2" space is filled with mineral wool. The very effective part of this has been I could play music and even play my very large drum set in the room all this time without even one complaint from neighbors. (My last neighbor of 15 years who had never been inside said "Hear anything? I never even knew when y'all were home!") The down side that I realized 11 years ago was I caused significant exacerbation of modal resonances. 11 years, about 500lbs of DIY fiberglass bass traps, and 50 diffusers (and Dirac Live) later ... I have tamed the beast!  |
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Post by leonski on Jul 21, 2023 13:32:49 GMT -5
Relevant to the speaker review topic, Robert Harley - Editor of The Absolute Sound - moved to a new home and built a new listening room in which he will undoubtedly review speakers. Here's Part 1, the room. In Part 2 he describes what has to be >$1M in components ... many of which will raise a lot of discussion of how ANYONE would think those components actually do what they say they do, let alone pay a fortune to have them ... Well regarded fellow, I'm sure. But what Marci calls an odd choice of equipment calls the whole thing into question. I may or may not look at the video (s) later, but sounds like Robert built himself an ARTIFACT..... Booms 'simpler' approach makes a certain sense to me. It's gotta be about bang for buck.....VERY few persons can simply throw money at 'something'... |
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Post by leonski on Jul 21, 2023 13:39:03 GMT -5
I’m currently writing my own paper on listening room construction and (more importantly) optimization. The vast majority of us will never have the chance to design a listening room or theater room from scratch. So most of my paper will be about how to optimize the room you DO have. Very anxious to read this! In my case, I came as close as I ever will be to doing this when I bought my place 40 years ago. There is a rectangle 27x13ft space just inside and right of the front door that is meant to be living room/dining room. There's an entrance by the stairs at the front of the house, an entrance in the middle from a hallway, and an entrance at the other end from the kitchen ... all on the same side of the long wall, with the other side of the long wall shared (with a block wall in between) with the two units beside me. There are large windows at each end. Being 28 and single at the time, I figured I could do what I wanted with this space, so I built an inner wall all the way around except for the middle entrance ... yes, even covering the windows. It's 5/8 particle board attached with small blocks of 2x4 only at the top, middle and bottom of each board (i.e. not full height studs). I sandwiched mineral wool between the particle board and the blocks as I put them up and so the 2" space is filled with mineral wool. The very effective part of this has been I could play music and even play my very large drum set in the room all this time without even one complaint from neighbors. (My last neighbor of 15 years who had never been inside said "Hear anything? I never even knew when y'all were home!") The down side that I realized 11 years ago was I caused significant exacerbation of modal resonances. 11 years, about 500lbs of DIY fiberglass bass traps, and 50 diffusers (and Dirac Live) later ... I have tamed the beast! Clean Sheet Builds must be approached with caution, knowledge and maybe even PAY for a consultant..... Me? If I were gifted with the SPACE.....for such a build? Offset studs. Non-Parallel walls. Double sheetrock on 2 of 4 interior walls..... EXTERIOR door, even on inside. Start with PHI dimensions and work from there. Double ceiling....with deadening material. Provision for interior wiring. At least a 40 amp Sub Box for just this room.... Have Fun! |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 21, 2023 16:06:47 GMT -5
My paper will be based on my own experiences - learning from mistakes in my living room. You'd be surprised how many I've made...
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Post by leonski on Jul 21, 2023 17:49:23 GMT -5
No surprise........I've done lots of strange things sound-wise.....and a few actually helped.....
At the start of Hartley Video? Room dimensions clearly derived from PHI. Within a fraction........Which IMO is a very good place to start.
IIRC? Just over 5000 cubic feet.....on a base of about 4600 SQuare feet..... Certainly a 'large' room, but not freakishly so.....
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LCSeminole
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Res firma mitescere nescit.
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Post by LCSeminole on Jul 22, 2023 8:40:38 GMT -5
My paper will be based on my own experiences - learning from mistakes in my living room. You'd be surprised how many I've made... Jim Smith’s “Get Better Sound” is a reference for me when I have “Room” questions. I’ll be interested to read about your experiences. www.getbettersound.com/ |
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Post by leonski on Jul 22, 2023 18:48:42 GMT -5
My paper will be based on my own experiences - learning from mistakes in my living room. You'd be surprised how many I've made... Jim Smith’s “Get Better Sound” is a reference for me when I have “Room” questions. I’ll be interested to read about your experiences. www.getbettersound.com/I have NOT read this book, or any like it, but I'll bet (wager of 200$ Monopoly money) that the room things can be divided into 4 major categories Easy things to do that get big results. the first thing to do, maybe, would be starting with proper dimensions of a clean-sheet design. This category covers ALL fundamentals from proper electric power drops to All built in and difficult to change features of the original space. Easy things to do that get SMALL results. You may want to put these off.....and frankly, I can't think of much in this category. Maybe stuff like sealing UNDER doors. Exterior doors to adjoining rooms? HARD things to do that get big results. First reflection absorption. Clouds (ceiling treatments) Bass Traps...... Hard things to do that get small results. Probably never get to these. Lot of work for very limited returns. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Jul 24, 2023 14:10:50 GMT -5
I haven't read that particular book... but I'm not so sure I can go along with your list... Specifically... "HARD things to do that get big results. First reflection absorption." Depending on your room.... - that could be as simple as hanging a couple of tapestries on your side walls at the right spots... - and putting a nice throw rug on the floor halfway between your screen and your listening chair... (I have a pretty pair of "tapestries" on my living room wall that are really just small fancy rugs from Kohl's or Walmart.)  Jim Smith’s “Get Better Sound” is a reference for me when I have “Room” questions. I’ll be interested to read about your experiences. www.getbettersound.com/I have NOT read this book, or any like it, but I'll bet (wager of 200$ Monopoly money) that the room things can be divided into 4 major categories Easy things to do that get big results. the first thing to do, maybe, would be starting with proper dimensions of a clean-sheet design. This category covers ALL fundamentals from proper electric power drops to All built in and difficult to change features of the original space. Easy things to do that get SMALL results. You may want to put these off.....and frankly, I can't think of much in this category. Maybe stuff like sealing UNDER doors. Exterior doors to adjoining rooms? HARD things to do that get big results. First reflection absorption. Clouds (ceiling treatments) Bass Traps...... Hard things to do that get small results. Probably never get to these. Lot of work for very limited returns. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 24, 2023 17:50:48 GMT -5
I'll stand by the order of operations.
Easy / big is first
Easy / small is next
Hard / big
Hard / small
YOU decide what is easy or hard to do. I have a small WOOLEN tapestry, too.....and it breaks a bad 'echo' in the listening room.... I'd rate it 'Easy-Big'.......
You can pick all the nits you wish, but the scheme I propose works. You must decide on how easy or tough some activity maybe and if you think it'll get you a big
or small improvement.
This is the way we approached improvment activities. When the fab was NEW and we were still making 20 dummy runs (No changes in process allowed) to start a control
chart, we had a certain YIELD. This activity was repeated for DOZENS of systems and machines. Before we put ANY product in the line to begin process validation, we
had dialed a lot of it in using 'dummy' runs. Our first actual product DID have functional yield.
That is basically how much you got OUT vs how much product you STARTED in the line. And how much product yield PER ....increment.
We started low, and had problems. But rapidly made changes, all statistically validated to Raise and improve that number. Mature operations will yield in the 90s or higher....
Hundreds of variables......some of which mattered a lot....others, not so much.
I just suggest the easy-hard / big-small scheme as a way for YOU to decide what to do first based on effort and potential effect....
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 25, 2023 8:23:52 GMT -5
I ran across a quote that resonated with me...
"Sometimes, when you're gambling, you don't really know what the stakes are..."
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 25, 2023 8:38:29 GMT -5
...but I'll bet (wager of 200$ Monopoly money) that the room things can be divided into 4 major categories Hi leonski - I think I'll have to throw in with KeithL on this one - And our objections are not just nitpicking: Easy things to do that get big results The first thing to do, maybe, would be starting with proper dimensions of a clean-sheet design. This category covers ALL fundamentals from proper electric power drops to All built in and difficult to change features of the original space. Yes, this would have big results, but "Easy thing to do?" Not unless you're building a room from scratch (most of us aren't and never will be). Try to do ANY of this on an existing room - NOT "easy." Easy things to do that get SMALL results. You may want to put these off.....and frankly, I can't think of much in this category. Maybe stuff like sealing UNDER doors. Exterior doors to adjoining rooms? OK, I'd say that KeithL's suggestion of hanging absorbers would be easy to do and could yield either big OR small results, depending on your room. HARD things to do that get big results. First reflection absorption. Clouds (ceiling treatments) Bass Traps..... Actually, as I said in my previous paragraph, I'd consider these relatively EASY things to do. Hard things to do that get small results. Probably never get to these. Lot of work for very limited returns. Agreed - I'd put in this category the upgrade of electrical systems, etc. In any case, we can all argue about priorities, but I think we're in agreement (mostly) about how to improve a listening room. I've sent the second draft of my paper with graphics to the "Secrets of Home Theater and High Fidelity" website (since they'll actually PAY me if they publish it). I'll post a notice here if/when they put it online. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 25, 2023 16:37:04 GMT -5
First?
My technique is not 'guess work' but a practical scheme. Once a problem is identified.......And we must distinguilsh between a room rebuild AND original construction....than when looking at time and budget? Is it easy or difficult to do?
FINE......I put somthing in the hard category....and you think easy. SO BEIT. But that does NOT invalidate the approach / schema. After all is said and done, I'm not fixing your room. YOU are making the decisions.
I merely suggest a schema on which to base a plan......With whatever YOU consider Easy / Big done first.....
And this is NOT vegas gambling......Blackjack card counting not withstanding. But it is, is a sense probablalistic. In addition? Nobody doing room improvments are inventing anything new. It is all (or well over 90%) KNOWN.
Stuff like plenty of power? check. Good cordage? helps. Room treatments? for sure.
But CLEAN SHEET? A new set of possibles are available and at little or NO additional cost or time....
The big categories of things that work are well known. The problem? In a practical sense? My room is an awful shape. No way to turn it into a Phi Shaped room with all the features I'd like and it's own 4 or 6 circuit feed from the power line.
Sure......Hang absorbers. And reflectors. And get up in the overhead and figure out how to hang clouds. This is all straighforward stuff. YOU decide on Easty or Hard to do......and if the payoff is big or small....
Your and Keith's objectsions to NOT invalidate my 'framework for thought'......Which is, IMO, a very rational way to approach the problem. Unless you are some excessively wealthy type and can simply start ordering stuff and get a crew in to install
while you crack another bottle of Melrot.....
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Post by leonski on Jul 25, 2023 18:22:15 GMT -5
I just realized something.
In each case....boom and Keith.....they said something about sound absorbers / mods being easy.......OK....
But the POINT? don't be critical of spelling or grammar, but address teh idea......
My 4 point scheme of figuring out what to do actually may hold water. Forget what I think may be easy or hard to do....or potential effects.
If you center on 'this' or 'that' being difficult or easy, you are missing the point. Make a plan, in some kind of order and model some of the effects to see
what is and isn't cost effective and potential difficulty of the 'doing'.....
Only YOU can decide for yourself and your space. I just suggest putting some order to the plan. Do easy stuff first which YOU feel gets big results.....
In GENERAL? Don't do difficult things which get minimal results....Or do them last.....
And YES. Starting with a bare piece of ground and maybe ONE shared wall with the rest of your house opens up a whole new set of possibles....I could only Imagine what it would
take in my current house to install offset studs or in-wall sound proofing. A nightmare of costs and finding the right people to actually DO the work. The interviews for those persons would
take a while and I'll bet, like trying to get anything ELSE done around here, it's not only a PIA but time consuming. It took me 8 months to get a patio cover delivered and installed.....I'll buy into
some of the delay myself, since I didn't want it delivered during the month of rains we had where part of my backyard was a LAKE.....
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 25, 2023 23:19:31 GMT -5
As I said - We ARE in agreement about how to proceed. I agree with BOTH you and KeithL. The focus that most fail to identify is that their ROOM deserves more attention than their equipment. |
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Post by leonski on Jul 26, 2023 2:24:33 GMT -5
AH! No problem with THAT. Room is the big sticking point HERE, too......But not much I can do about fundamentally awful dimensions and just awful design.
But It was ALL I could afford and I've never been a 'real estate speculator'.......so I did what I could. The Tapestry on the wall OPPOSITE and the long way down
the room made a large difference for minimal expense....and looks good.
Most (many, anyway) HOmes I've looked at over the years have a built-in FIREPLACE which I don't want anything to do with any more. I'd rather have the wall to
do something with. Another feature? The combines kitchen / diner / 'rec room'......And than they throw in 3 or 4 small bedrooms when I'd reduce the number
by 1 and make 'em all a tad larger......I NEED a library room of over 100 square feet....120 to 140 would be more like it.......so I could install 8 or 10 feet of bookshelf.
But THAT'S getting back to a clean sheet design and with building costs hovering at maybe 400$ a foot? or more??? I can't afford an unfinished garage!
I may spend some $$$ making some diffusion, but I'll call that an EXPERIMENT, which is also allowable. I mean? I don't KNOW big or small effect or even cost.
Though I CAN estimate cost and my time is essentially FREE......If I paid someone an hourly to build exactly what I want and HOW? Cha Ching$$$$$
ONE thing I didn't get to? INTEGRATION of plans. Just for a wild and Expensive example. Just SAY you were going to rip out a wall. Leave the studs alone.....
in order to double up the sheet rock and install sound insulation. DO IT ALL AT ONCE. Saves untold problems and Money. Cars are that way? Have a busted belt,
maybe? CHange 'em ALL from 'inside' out and pay ONE labor while parts are mail ordered from Rock Auto or your personal fave.......
My Serpentine needs to be changed A real PIA......But while you are tearing into that part of the engine? Water Pump? (at 100k...?) or even the idler / tensioner pully......
My neighbor used to tell me to 'Plan the work....than work the plan'.........He was real smart that way.
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