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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 10, 2024 0:30:46 GMT -5
I’ve blown up my share of stuff back in the “bad old days” when I operated a chemical plant. Management’s attitude in those days was “run it till it breaks and then patch it.”
When my generator bogged down (and failed to trip on low rpm), it wasn’t motors or electronics that were damaged, but rather the surge suppressors. One damaged its varistor, but another literally burst into flame! It was in a plastic housing that mostly melted, but it was sitting on a tempered glass desktop and nothing combustible was in the vicinity. Cleaning up the soot from the smoke was a major task though. I now purchase only electrical gear in metal housings.
I also plug valuable equipment into brand-name UPS units that monitor both voltage AND phase. I consider them sacrificial and replace them on a rotating schedule.
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Post by leonski on Sept 10, 2024 1:10:16 GMT -5
We had an implanter apart and ALL the high voltage safeties defeated.
In the 'terminal' was a Beckman or similar DVM with the 20x High Voltage Probe.
The one which really looks the part.
Boss flipped on the power and the meter took a direct hit turning into mostly
charcoal. OOOPS!
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 10, 2024 9:47:36 GMT -5
I've asked this question of Yamaha Support, but haven't an answer from them yet. Lounge participants are generally as smart (or more) than the average tech support tech, so may I quiz you? My AVR has preamp outlets for the front R/L. I'd like to sum those outlets to a mono subwoofer signal (and do low-pass management on the sub's plate amplifier). I don't want to use the bass management of the AVR because I can hear the transition, no matter where the crossover frequency is set. Instead, I want to use my satellites full-range and then "blend in" the sub from the sub's plate amp. I've used this scheme before and liked the results very much. And so now my question: If I use a Y-cable to combine the R/L preamp-out jacks, will the music being played by the AVR (to the satellites) also become mono? If each channel has its own op-amp for pre-out, then the stereo feed to the satellites should remain stereo. But if the pre-out jacks are just drops off of the main signal path, then everything downstream of the pre-out jacks will probably become monophonic. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V6A. Thanks - Boom I have received a reply from Yamaha Support: " Glenn,
You can use the front Pre-Outs(via a Y adapter) to go to a subwoofer. It would not be mono, it would still be a Stereo output and if you have any speakers set to small. The low frequency from them would come out as well. If you set the speakers all to Large, only the front speaker signals would come out of the front Pre-Outs, along with the LFE/.1.
Regards,
KenI find this reply somewhat confusing (maybe it's just me?) - Ken says that I can use a Y-adapter to feed my subwoofer. But then the next sentence says "It would not be mono..." Why the heck not? Once the two (preamp out) grounds are common, and the two signal pins are common, there's no longer any way to maintain discreet channel programming. I interpret the third sentence to say "the AVR's bass management is still active if you've any speakers set to "small." Did I misunderstand anything, or is Ken's reply confusing to you too? POSTSCRIPT: Mr. Ken from Yamaha called me. We discussed my question in some depth. I was assured that even if I combined the R/L signals from the preamp out jacks via a Y-adaptor, that the internal R/L signals will remain stereo. |
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Post by marcl on Sept 10, 2024 10:07:09 GMT -5
I've asked this question of Yamaha Support, but haven't an answer from them yet. Lounge participants are generally as smart (or more) than the average tech support tech, so may I quiz you? My AVR has preamp outlets for the front R/L. I'd like to sum those outlets to a mono subwoofer signal (and do low-pass management on the sub's plate amplifier). I don't want to use the bass management of the AVR because I can hear the transition, no matter where the crossover frequency is set. Instead, I want to use my satellites full-range and then "blend in" the sub from the sub's plate amp. I've used this scheme before and liked the results very much. And so now my question: If I use a Y-cable to combine the R/L preamp-out jacks, will the music being played by the AVR (to the satellites) also become mono? If each channel has its own op-amp for pre-out, then the stereo feed to the satellites should remain stereo. But if the pre-out jacks are just drops off of the main signal path, then everything downstream of the pre-out jacks will probably become monophonic. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V6A. Thanks - Boom I have received a reply from Yamaha Support: " Glenn,
You can use the front Pre-Outs(via a Y adapter) to go to a subwoofer. It would not be mono, it would still be a Stereo output and if you have any speakers set to small. The low frequency from them would come out as well. If you set the speakers all to Large, only the front speaker signals would come out of the front Pre-Outs, along with the LFE/.1.
Regards,
KenI find this reply somewhat confusing (maybe it's just me?) - Ken says that I can use a Y-adapter to feed my subwoofer. But then the next sentence says "It would not be mono..." Why the heck not? Once the two (preamp out) grounds are common, and the two signal pins are common, there's no longer any way to maintain discreet channel programming. I interpret the third sentence to say "the AVR's bass management is still active if you've any speakers set to "small." Did I misunderstand anything, or is Ken's reply confusing to you too? I think he's referring to your last paragraph, and he's saying that using a Y on the pre-outs will not cause the speaker outputs to become mono ... they will remain stereo. So this is what you want. the pre-outs will merge to a mono signal but the speaker outs will remain stereo. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 10, 2024 10:11:09 GMT -5
Exactly, marcl - Just what I wanted! |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Sept 10, 2024 10:19:10 GMT -5
I think you're misunderstanding his suggestion... He's suggesting that you put a Y-cable on EACH of the front main preamp outputs... One output from each of those Y-cables goes to your normal amp for that channel... The other output from EACH of those Y-cables goes to one of the inputs on your sub... Assuming that your sub has separate L and R inputs THE SUB will sum them for you... (The sub will mix those two inputs using summing resistors so it doesn't short them together.) Assuming you have your front speakers set to LARGE those outputs will be full range. And, assuming you have the sub set to NONE, the LFE signal will be sent to those fronts as well by your bass management... And, assuming you have any other speakers set to small, the low frequencies from those channels will ALSO be sent to the fronts by your bass management. In general it is not a good idea to connect two outputs together using a Y-cable that does not include resistors. Some gear will have buffers on the pre-outs... so shorting them together won't short the channels together entirely. However, even with equipment that has buffers, some "may not like it if you short the two outputs together"... That's a nice way of saying that it could cause additional distortion or even cause the output buffers on those channels to overheat. The only way to set your SATELLITES to large, and then have them mixed to the sub, WITHOUT using bass management, would be to... Set ALL of your speakers, including the satellites, to LARGE... Put a Y-cable on EACH preamp output (including all the satellites)... MIX one output from EACH of those Y-cables together... EACH OF THOS OUTPUTS has to have it's own input, with a "mixing resistor"... And, since subs only ever have two inputs, you would need a separate "mixer"... (This is really trivial and all it needs to have is one resistor for each input... ) HERE'S WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST... Set the fronts to large, add those y-cables, and connect them to the two inputs on your sub... Set the sub to NONE (which will force the LFE channel through the fronts... no crossover there)... Set the satellites to small (I doubt you're going to hear the crossover transition on those channels)... I've asked this question of Yamaha Support, but haven't an answer from them yet. Lounge participants are generally as smart (or more) than the average tech support tech, so may I quiz you? My AVR has preamp outlets for the front R/L. I'd like to sum those outlets to a mono subwoofer signal (and do low-pass management on the sub's plate amplifier). I don't want to use the bass management of the AVR because I can hear the transition, no matter where the crossover frequency is set. Instead, I want to use my satellites full-range and then "blend in" the sub from the sub's plate amp. I've used this scheme before and liked the results very much. And so now my question: If I use a Y-cable to combine the R/L preamp-out jacks, will the music being played by the AVR (to the satellites) also become mono? If each channel has its own op-amp for pre-out, then the stereo feed to the satellites should remain stereo. But if the pre-out jacks are just drops off of the main signal path, then everything downstream of the pre-out jacks will probably become monophonic. My AVR is a Yamaha RX-V6A. Thanks - Boom I have received a reply from Yamaha Support: " Glenn,
You can use the front Pre-Outs(via a Y adapter) to go to a subwoofer. It would not be mono, it would still be a Stereo output and if you have any speakers set to small. The low frequency from them would come out as well. If you set the speakers all to Large, only the front speaker signals would come out of the front Pre-Outs, along with the LFE/.1.
Regards,
KenI find this reply somewhat confusing (maybe it's just me?) - Ken says that I can use a Y-adapter to feed my subwoofer. But then the next sentence says "It would not be mono..." Why the heck not? Once the two (preamp out) grounds are common, and the two signal pins are common, there's no longer any way to maintain discreet channel programming. I interpret the third sentence to say "the AVR's bass management is still active if you've any speakers set to "small." Did I misunderstand anything, or is Ken's reply confusing to you too? |
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Post by marcl on Sept 10, 2024 10:28:48 GMT -5
I think you're misunderstanding his suggestion... He's suggesting that you put a Y-cable on EACH of the front main preamp outputs... One output from each of those Y-cables goes to your normal amp for that channel... The other output from EACH of those Y-cables goes to one of the inputs on your sub... Assuming that your sub has separate L and R inputs THE SUB will sum them for you... (The sub will mix those two inputs using summing resistors so it doesn't short them together.) Assuming you have your front speakers set to LARGE those outputs will be full range. And, assuming you have the sub set to NONE, the LFE signal will be sent to those fronts as well by your bass management... And, assuming you have any other speakers set to small, the low frequencies from those channels will ALSO be sent to the fronts by your bass management. In general it is not a good idea to connect two outputs together using a Y-cable that does not include resistors. Some gear will have buffers on the pre-outs... so shorting them together won't short the channels together entirely. However, even with equipment that has buffers, some "may not like it if you short the two outputs together"... That's a nice way of saying that it could cause additional distortion or even cause the output buffers on those channels to overheat. The only way to set your SATELLITES to large, and then have them mixed to the sub, WITHOUT using bass management, would be to... Set ALL of your speakers, including the satellites, to LARGE... Put a Y-cable on EACH preamp output (including all the satellites)... MIX one output from EACH of those Y-cables together... EACH OF THOS OUTPUTS has to have it's own input, with a "mixing resistor"... And, since subs only ever have two inputs, you would need a separate "mixer"... (This is really trivial and all it needs to have is one resistor for each input... ) HERE'S WHAT I WOULD SUGGEST... Set the fronts to large, add those y-cables, and connect them to the two inputs on your sub... Set the sub to NONE (which will force the LFE channel through the fronts... no crossover there)... Set the satellites to small (I doubt you're going to hear the crossover transition on those channels)... I have received a reply from Yamaha Support: " Glenn,
You can use the front Pre-Outs(via a Y adapter) to go to a subwoofer. It would not be mono, it would still be a Stereo output and if you have any speakers set to small. The low frequency from them would come out as well. If you set the speakers all to Large, only the front speaker signals would come out of the front Pre-Outs, along with the LFE/.1.
Regards,
KenI find this reply somewhat confusing (maybe it's just me?) - Ken says that I can use a Y-adapter to feed my subwoofer. But then the next sentence says "It would not be mono..." Why the heck not? Once the two (preamp out) grounds are common, and the two signal pins are common, there's no longer any way to maintain discreet channel programming. I interpret the third sentence to say "the AVR's bass management is still active if you've any speakers set to "small." Did I misunderstand anything, or is Ken's reply confusing to you too? This will work. I use one to combine the L/R low pass outputs of my active crossover and send the mixed signal to the subs. www.amazon.com/Whirlwind-IMP-COMBINER-Combiner/dp/B0006JBIXS |
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KeithL
Administrator
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Post by KeithL on Sept 10, 2024 10:37:44 GMT -5
If you look hard enough you can probably find a document somewhere that states what your power company is "agreeing to deliver"... But your guess is as good as mine if they actually reliably comply with it or not. (You might even find a report about that put out by some local regulatory group.) The frequency of the power line is usually VERY accurate... far beyond single digit fractions of a percent. Most normal electrical devices won't actually suffer significant damage if the frequency is a little bit off. For example, most smaller devices, like audio equipment, will cheerfully run from 50 Hz or 60 Hz, which is a 20% difference... Some larger transformers and heavy motors may have a problem there... but a few percent shouldn't cause any serious problems for most things. HOWEVER... The power grid consists of a whole bunch of interconnected generating stations... And, if they disagree in phase by even a tiny fraction of a cycle, the result could well be significant damage or destruction of equipment... And the same holds true if, your example, you try to feed power back into the grid from something like solar panels, and the frequency and phase aren't exactly synchronized... In theory it shouldn't matter much as long as you NEVER connect your generator or battery inverter system to the power grid. But you still might find some clocks or turntables running slightly off speed. The other thing is that many devices rely on the power line frequency in order to operate accurately. For example, if you have something with "an AC synchronous motor" then the motor's speed is "locked to the line frequency"... And many electric and electronic clocks still run by counting the cycles of the line frequency... Likewise, some electric clocks, and turntables, and especially tape decks... If you have a clock that has an AC power cord then it probably still tells time based on line frequency. (Most modern turntables use their own crystal oscillator - which is independent of line frequency - so that you can adjust the speed - but not all.) That "90-230" range was VOLTAGE. Most of the world runs on either 50 Hz or 60 Hz frequency. Aircraft and some military vehicles often use 400 Hz... and 400 Hz stuff does NOT run well at 50/60 Hz or vice versa. (There are major differences in the design of transformers and motors over that wide of a frequency range.) Wouldn't surprise me to learn that Voltage to my outlet is maybe some center point +-5% 'guaranteed 90% of the time'...... 116 center is what I 'guess'.....So +-5.8v But Frequency is probably 'tenths' of a percent accurate. Blowin' stuff up, Boom? Is That how you got your name? I just wonder, though. What if??? 60hz Synchronous motor at 120hz? What about other AC motors? I read thru a series of notes by Tesla where he went thru bulbs and motors and most of it was gibberish to me. Also, Boom? What happens if you plug a 'conventional' PS into a different frequency? Some of the switchers and recharges are good from 90 to 230 or some such. I was in Egypt and asked them to send up a power adapter? Guy shows up with a GIANT (maybe 20lb) transformer. Worked fine. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 10, 2024 17:47:31 GMT -5
Such a simple question yields so many potential misunderstandings….
I’m familiar with the “put some resistors in series to maintain channel separation” idea. In fact, Paul Klipsch offered several such schematics in his “Dope From Hope” newsletters.
But I don’t want those complications if I can avoid them. I DON’T want stereo feeds to the subwoofer (neither by interconnects nor by speaker wires). To avoid such wiring, I have an Emotiva Virtual Copper transmitter / receiver pair - BUT - this set delivers MONO subwoofer signals only.
Therefore, I need to sum the (volume-controlled) preamp outputs to mono before transmitting to the sub. If a simple Y-adapter will suffice, that’s what I’ll use!
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Post by leonski on Sept 10, 2024 19:47:07 GMT -5
Boom? I think you are getting excited about nearly nothing.
At least in Music / Recordings? Below some frequency it is mono, anyway. I doubt of L / R exists below 80hz or so......
With Movies? Can you peel out the LFE channel and leave the remainder alone? Is the LFE feed a single channel?
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 11, 2024 1:32:53 GMT -5
Although my Yamaha RX-V6A has two RCA subwoofer jacks, both are monophonic. If you use the Yamaha’s bass management, you must select a crossover frequency (or accept the default). This not only sends low frequencies to the subwoofer jacks but also (whether you want it to or not) applies a high-pass filter to the satellite speakers (and to any other speakers set to “small”). With phonograph records, bass did lose channel separation as frequencies dropped (an unavoidable artifact of the technology), but with digital recordings, bass frequencies can and do have.just as much separation as the midrange! Now your ears’ ability to DETECT such separation becomes lacking below about 80Hz. (Per Thomlinson-Holman studies), which is one of the reasons why sub outputs are so often monophonic. But the belief that you can take either channel of a digital recording and get “all the bass” is a leftover (and mistaken) artifact of the analog era. You must either sum both channels to mono or use stereo subwoofers. Otherwise, you aren’t hearing all of what’s on the recording. And before KeithL jumps in to correct me, the previous sentence applies only to fully-digital recordings, not to those converted from analog masters. |
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Post by leonski on Sept 11, 2024 14:22:22 GMT -5
This is funny.
Here is what I note when using a sub.
First? Staging is wider. This is from a single 12" sub adjacent to the RH main speaker.... When I shut off the sub? Image collapses.
Here's what I think is going on. Sub is not all 'fundamentals' but has harmonics. Since the human system in a house is really NOT very
directional below maybe 80hz or 100hz, you RELY on the harmonics for directionality and spatial cues.
My question is? Are all digital recordings done with discrete bass (L/R) on the final product? Or do they follow the analogue predicent and
mix down to mono below some point?
I note that Bass CAN be directional. Elephants use infrasonic to communicate over miles. Call it 20hz or less and over as much as 5 or 6 miles.
It wouldn't surprise me if elephants stance matters. If at right angles or parallel to the sound. They can tell from which direction it originates....
INSIDE a house? Sorry. The really lowest frequencies have longer wavelengths than the space can resolve....
I'd like some references to look at concerning modern recording technique. And how it may differ for MOVIES which has driven this whole multi-channel
situation.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 13, 2024 4:19:56 GMT -5
Another obscure question, por favor? I am using the Roon playback system running on Roon Nucleus One hardware. My music Library is on a Synology NAS.
Yesterday, I installed an internal hard drive in the Nucleus. I’ve successfully formatted the drive and authorized it in Roon as my Library location. I can see the new drive and read its contents from Mac Finder (as I can with the Synology NAS).
But when I try to copy files from the Synology to the new internal drive, using Mac Finder, I get an error message saying I need to authenticate with a user name and password. The error message not only lacks a data entry option, but also fails to tell me whether the error message is being generated by Roon, by Synology, or by the Mac Finder program.
Any ideas?
Thanks - Boomzilla
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Post by leonski on Sept 13, 2024 14:48:36 GMT -5
Simplify!
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Post by brubacca on Sept 13, 2024 14:54:48 GMT -5
Another obscure question, por favor? I am using the Roon playback system running on Roon Nucleus One hardware. My music Library is on a Synology NAS. Yesterday, I installed an internal hard drive in the Nucleus. I’ve successfully formatted the drive and authorized it in Roon as my Library location. I can see the new drive and read its contents from Mac Finder (as I can with the Synology NAS). But when I try to copy files from the Synology to the new internal drive, using Mac Finder, I get an error message saying I need to authenticate with a user name and password. The error message not only lacks a data entry option, but also fails to tell me whether the error message is being generated by Roon, by Synology, or by the Mac Finder program. Any ideas? Thanks - Boomzilla I use a Roon Rock Server (which is just their dedicated OS on a NUC) and also transitioned from NAS Storage to Local. My Nas is Asustor and my PC is windows. So the same setup but completely different. In my case there is no password on the directory of the Roon Server only on the NAS Drive. I'd be tempted to try the Synology Password. Sorry wish our setups were an exact copy, but that's what I got. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 13, 2024 15:48:14 GMT -5
EXACTLY what I'm trying to do... |
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 13, 2024 15:55:56 GMT -5
Figured it out!
Roon Remote must be open. Finder must have the source open. Then drag the source files from Finder onto the Roon Remote screen and drop them on the nucleusone drive. You're asked if you want to copy the files, or just add the source directory. I selected "copy the files," and everything's off to the races!
Postscriptum: Nothing is easy...
Turns out the destination drive has 4.08Tb free, and the source drive has 4.39Tb of current folders & files. So after indexing the source and comparing the material to the free space of the destination, everything just stopped.
My workaround: The files that I most often listen to are no more than about 3Tb. If I transfer those (and only those) to the new drive, I'm left with a LOT of free space on the NAS. Since Roon can index multiple folders in its Library, I'll be missing nothing. So why do this at all?
1. It allows me to use part of the NAS for other purposes (data backup, etc.)
2. It allows me to take the NAS off-line while still having access to (most of) my tunes.
3. It allows me to add new music as I buy it without taxing the storage space on any drive.
Works for me...
PS#2 - Does anyone know who makes an 8Tb drive in 2.5” size? Amazon doesn’t seem to have any.
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 14, 2024 22:29:06 GMT -5
After some searching, I've concluded that 5 TB is the largest 2.5 inch drive currently available. The only exception is a 6 TB SSD, but Amazon wants more than $600 for it!
As to trying to transfer music to the internal Roon Nucleus drive, what a long, strange trip it's been!
Despite the fact that Mac Finder can't (accurately) read network drives, my source music files ARE still there on my Synology source drive (named "Godzilla"). Trying to move those files to the internal drive of my Roon Nucleus by any non-Roon method is doomed to failure. Why? When Roon formatted the Nucleus drive, it created a small "data" partition on the internal drive (named "nucleusone"). The Mac OS Finder can mount the data partition, but it CAN NOT mount the nucleusone drive itself (due to proprietary Roon formatting)!
Therefore, when I tried to move data from Godzilla to nucleusone, I thought I was moving files to the actual nucleusone drive. But both previous attempts (using Mac Finder, and then Chronosync), were actually attempting to move all the files to the small data partition - not the main nucleusone drive. That's why Finder showed so much free space while all the transfers failed from "insufficient space on destination."
I'm currently trying again. I've highlighted JUST the files that I wanted to copy off Godzilla. I then opened Roon Remote (that does see the entire nucleusone drive), and did a drag and drop. As of now, the file count in Roon is steadily rising. Will this succeed? I'll know by the morning. If this fails, I'll revert to using Godzilla as my Roon Library drive.
I DO have a monthly backup of Godzilla on a USB drive. But for a long-term backup solution, I think I'll just add Godilla to my Backblaze online backup.
Boom
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Post by Boomzilla on Sept 15, 2024 9:54:59 GMT -5
Things I've just realized:
1. I can't just copy files from the Nucleus drive to a USB stick (or a backup drive). If I try, the song titles and folder structure are copied, but when one tries to play the files from the USB stick or USB drive, they WILL NOT PLAY. When examining the files on the USB stick or USB drive, each shows "zero bytes." This means that backup can ONLY be done from within Roon.
2. I can't just copy files from the Synology drive to a USB stick (or a backup drive). If I try, the song titles and folder structure are copied, but when one tries to play the files from the USB stick or USB drive, they WILL NOT PLAY. When examining the files on the USB stick or USB drive, each shows "zero bytes." This means that backup can ONLY be done from within Synology software.
3. By doing what I've done, I now have to coordinate and harmonize not two, not three, but FOUR different operating systems with differing drive formats and file transfer protocols: Roon, Synology, Mac, and PC. This is difficult if not impossible! And you're right - this is a LOT of extra complication for little or no advantage.
I'm going to have to undo what I've done. The simplest solution is to maintain two USB external (and inexpensive) hard drives, each in EXFAT format - that can be read by Mac, Roon, and Windows. Once per month, I'll synchronize the active drive with the other USB drive, loan a friend the new backup, and connect the new active drive directly to the Roon Nucleus. Not only will I have two backups in different physical locations (one with an audio amigo; one with Backblaze), but also if I want to copy a few files on a USB stick to use on a remote system (regardless of the OS), I can easily do so.
The only fly in this plan is my better half. Any drive that whirs and clacks all night won't be acceptable to her. So I need to either:
a) find drives that have VERY LOW noise levels or else
b) buy or build a noise suppressing (but ventilated) box to house the drive
Ideas?
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Post by leonski on Sept 15, 2024 15:42:29 GMT -5
At the dawn of movies with SOUND? Same problem. Hand cranked and newer (but not for sound) movie cameras were NOISY. So noisy, they couldn't be used with the new formats and capabilties...... But the workaround which applies to YOU TOO? BLIMP. Camera, or in your case the drives......in a special sound defeating enclosure. I've seen SLR (pre digital) at PRO GOLF matches. These cameras were in a special Neoprene cover which suppressed sound. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_blimpActually? Done right? This is a marketable product. Cooling can be passive, at the expense of a larger enclosure. PM me and I'll give you the rundown on how to do this...... If YOU object to noise from drives, you can't be the ONLY one with this issue..... think 1. Isolation 2. Feedthrus (electrical) 3. Passive cooling.... |
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