Boomzilla's Journey (ongoing)

[leonski]

Partial Solution?

Take BESTSTAB at an Aeron. Buy USED for 300$ or whatever. TEST.

If you like it? Sell and buy SAME chair new. Just like reasonable audio? You 'll not be losing a lot of $$ and gain knowledge.

I would NOT buy something I could not at the Very Least give a butt test too......

Body-Bilt is $$ and has unspecified weight.....(of chair, not capacity)
X-Chair looks nice and the X-Tech model looks complete
ErgoCentric? Lots of confusing options. Where to start?

Seen the Steelcase Leap? or the Aeron? Is Houston close enough for a drive?

[Boomzilla]

I'm NOT driving to Houston to look at chairs. I've owned not one but two Herman Miller Aeron models before (I bought them used). I know how they sit. They just weren't a great fit for me. I gave both to friends who were significantly heavier than I and they both LOVED those Aerons.

Yes, the ErgoCentric's options are both plentiful and confusing, but I've been in touch with their U.S. representative, and they've promised me answers on all my questions by the end of business today. Further, if it turns out that I need options that aren't offered on the website, they have offered to custom build me a chair that will EXACTLY meet all of the requirements from my PT. This is despite being the least-expensive of the chairs I'm considering. Besides, they have a return policy and warranty that I like. Is my mind made up, then? No, not yet. I still want to hear back from BodyBIlt & X-Chair. But Ergo-Centric is currently leading the pack...

[leonski]

You should have said you tried Aeron without success......

Me? Years ago in a 'Healthy Back' store, I trial sat the LEAP and loved that........

I might add that though heavy, I'm otherwise not a 'difficult' fit.....and need no

special features or accomodations....

Let me know what you finally get.....and Leather? or Fabric?


There are TWO 'relax the back' location in Houston.....

[Boomzilla]

Thanks leonski - I’ll definitely be getting a foam & fabric surface - mesh stretches too much, and leather is too hot in the summer and too cold in the winter. I’m not getting the info I requested from either BodyBilt or X-Chair, so ErgoCentric is looking more likely…

UPDATE: I may have solved my keyboard posture problem without needing an expensive chair. I ordered a retractable keyboard tray that hangs under the desk surface. Now, my wrists aren't bent witn reaching for the keys.

Of course, the new position feels funny, and it may take a few days before I adjust to the different position, but this is definitely better. For less than $100 on Amazon, I may have saved over $1,000 on seating.

One negative may be that the screen text (already marginally too small) is farther away, and even smaller now. I see two options (no pun intended): Either bring the monitor closer or change the font size. I've already tried the former, and it seems to work!

Another potential negative is that I may have lowered the keyboard TOO much. It's now a full 6.5 inches lower than the table top. Now, my forearms slope DOWN to the keyboard (and at about the equivalent angle from horizontal that they used to slant up). But, since the new keyboard tray's height is easily adjustable (and it's currently at the greatest drop), I can modify that easily.

Other issues: My current chair is still falling apart - the leatherette is flaking off one of the arms, depositing black flakes everywhere, and the arm-rest is no longer adjustable (at least, on one side).

And one final comment: Both my keyboard and my trackball (yeah, I'm one of those) are wireless models, making the new position easier to implement than it would have been if I had to run USB wires from them both.

Boom

[leonski]

Maybe one of those 'bent' keyboards?

www.cdw.com/product/logitech-ergo-k860-ergonomic-split-keyboard/5909507


Your wrists are in a more natural rotation, maybe....?

[Boomzilla]

I've tried multiple types of "ergonomic keyboards" over the years - some in a V-shape to keep you from bending your wrists side to side - some humped up in the middle supposedly to keep your wrists in a "more natural position" - none of them have worked well (nor did they seem to help my wrists). Furthermore, every one of those trick keyboards was made specifically for Windows. I once used Windows machines exclusively until I became a self-employed consultant. At that point, I decided that Windows machines were not reliable enough for my needs. I needed a computer that was going to not only work every time, but also be FAR more virus and malware resistant than standard PC laptops.

Initially, after my switch to Apple, I profoundly hated their OS, and wished I had my PC back again. There's a HUGE learning curve to be overcome. Everything I'd learned about computers, from DOS to every version of Windows had to be forcefully unlearned. I called Apple products "the mirror world" because everything seemed backwards. But the realization that I couldn't trust my clients' data to any machine prone to corruption by viruses made me persist with Apple. It took me a year or two to get over all my "Windows habits," but (with the help of the Baton Rouge Mac Users Group - BRMUG) I finally succeeded.

Today, you couldn't FORCE me to use a Windows machine for any amount of money. If they GAVE AWAY Windows-based hardware, I'd still pay to get a Mac. Apple isn't perfect by any means - they periodically manage to irritate me. But I can live with their shortcomings. There are viruses that Macs can catch (I read about them and know that they exist), but in my quarter century plus of Mac use, I've never had one on any of my Apple machines. None of my Windows amigos can say that. Not one. Besides, keeping a Windows machine (mostly) virus free involves using anti-virus software that absolutely inhales memory and clock cycles. I have never once needed an AV program on any of my Macs. Never!

But I digress... funky-looking Windows keyboards just don't seem like a viable solution based on my previous experience with every "Ergonomic keyboard" ever made. Those keyboards sound great in theory, but profoundly fail in practice.

[KeithL]

I've got to chime in with an opposing viewpoint here...

I used DOS for years before Windows even existed...
I've been using Windows almost literally since it was born....
And I actually had a PC with Windows 2.1 on it... back before Windows 286 even existed (I don't remember ever using Windows 1.0).

And, yes, to be fair, Apple computers are probably a bit more secure... or, at least, they used to be.
Just as a house with no windows, and only one door, and which only lets people in who are on the VIP access list, would be more secure than yours or mine.
And they do make really nice monitors... if you ignore the absolutely obscene price tags on most of them.
My main problem with Apple... other than the price... is that they tend not to run most of the software that I actually want to use.

However, I have to say that I simply don't understand all of the issues that so many people claim to have with "viruses"...
Our computers here at Emotiva are "managed"... which means that they have some sort of centrally managed antivirus software on them...
The computer that I use for graphics and such at home has Checkpoint antivirus on it...
The one that I use to download stuff, including more "dubious" files like videos, just has Windows Defender on it.
(Windows Defender is the default security program that comes with Windows - unavoidably - if you don't install one of your own.)
(I have had a few bad experiences with files being corrupted... by an early copy of Norton Firewall... but that isn't Windows fault...)

However... in recent years...
When I'm downloading really dubious files, from even more dubious sources, I occasionally get a "virus warning"...
This is the sort of warning that says "we've detected a virus and blocked the file"...
And, rather more commonly, I'll get a PHONY virus warning from a bogus web site...
(Just close your browser, reboot your computer if necessary, and those will usually go away... and don't go there again.)
But I honestly can't remember the last time a virus actually managed to infect one of my computers...
And, while there are LOTS of reasons why a file can become corrupted, most of them have nothing to do with a virus... 
And, of course, if you follow proper etiquette, and back up important files, and save more or less frequently, even that isn't usually a big problem.

My point here is really that I just can't understand how anyone who is even moderately careful would have much trouble with viruses.
(Just don't engage in "dangerous behavior" like clicking on links in e-mails and running strange files.)
My educated guess is that most people simply blame EVERYTHING that goes wrong on their computer on "a virus" or "malware"...
When it's usually "program error" or "user error".

And, yes, if your computer gets corrupted, then you might end up having to wipe it and reinstall everything...
I'm told that, on Apple computers, you can do that by holding a button down while turning the power on...
And, with Windows, you'll have to do something really complicated, like run "setup" from a disc...
And just put your data back from your backups... which, of course, you have... RIGHT? 

And, yes, it really does seem like someone at Apple woke up one morning and said to themselves:
"Let's look at how Windows does things... then make sure we do everything differently... just to annoy people... "

You might want to check out these informative (and totally unbiased ) videos about how Apple does things:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiAzrco8wsk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqA8h0IBRmY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymeUDZ0MWaM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdaqPhmZvPE
(And I say unbiased because this fellow also has videos about everyone else - including Windows - that are equally "informative"... )

I'll also say, in closing, that I despise those short travel keyboards...
Which includes most Apple keyboards...
And an awful lot of modern PC and laptop keyboards as well...
(They're almost as thoroughly unpleasant to me as touch screens.)

Nov 6, 2024 22:29:12 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

I've tried multiple types of "ergonomic keyboards" over the years - some in a V-shape to keep you from bending your wrists side to side - some humped up in the middle supposedly to keep your wrists in a "more natural position" - none of them have worked well (nor did they seem to help my wrists). Furthermore, every one of those trick keyboards was made specifically for Windows. I once used Windows machines exclusively until I became a self-employed consultant. At that point, I decided that Windows machines were not reliable enough for my needs. I needed a computer that was going to not only work every time, but also be FAR more virus and malware resistant than standard PC laptops.

Initially, after my switch to Apple, I profoundly hated their OS, and wished I had my PC back again. There's a HUGE learning curve to be overcome. Everything I'd learned about computers, from DOS to every version of Windows had to be forcefully unlearned. I called Apple products "the mirror world" because everything seemed backwards. But the realization that I couldn't trust my clients' data to any machine prone to corruption by viruses made me persist with Apple. It took me a year or two to get over all my "Windows habits," but (with the help of the Baton Rouge Mac Users Group - BRMUG) I finally succeeded.

Today, you couldn't FORCE me to use a Windows machine for any amount of money. If they GAVE AWAY Windows-based hardware, I'd still pay to get a Mac. Apple isn't perfect by any means - they periodically manage to irritate me. But I can live with their shortcomings. There are viruses that Macs can catch (I read about them and know that they exist), but in my quarter century plus of Mac use, I've never had one on any of my Apple machines. None of my Windows amigos can say that. Not one. Besides, keeping a Windows machine (mostly) virus free involves using anti-virus software that absolutely inhales memory and clock cycles. I have never once needed an AV program on any of my Macs. Never!

But I digress... funky-looking Windows keyboards just don't seem like a viable solution based on my previous experience with every "Ergonomic keyboard" ever made. Those keyboards sound great in theory, but profoundly fail in practice.

[leonski]

Is it still true that IF your Windows machine messes up you curse Bill Gates and if your Mac machine messes up you wonder what YOU did wrong?

[brubacca]

My quick OS stories (2)...

I went to college with a 286 based DOS computer. Worked great used it for games, school work and fortran programming. Windows got popular on campus about JR year. Not a huge fan at the time. I was in the Aerospace program and our main professor asked our opinion on Mac vs PC. Had a couple Mac people in the room and I argued vociferously for PC. Next year the Aerospace lab was full of Macs. We were all in the lab working on a project and I helped the person out with the mechanics of how to use the Mac. Classmate said "I didn't think you knew how to use a MAC because you argued against them."


Next Story fast forward to the housing crisis in 2009. Took a job at Best Buy for the Christmas season because I had been laid off most the year. They put me in the Computed Sales area (I applied for the stereo area). Argued with a college guy (another sales guy) about PC vs Mac. My opinion much changed by now, that Mac is fine and PC is also Fine, but MAC wasn't inherently better or the best, just something different. College guy laughs at old guy (me), how silly I am for not praying at the Mac alter. Couple days later poor customer comes in because they have been windows user their whole life and a guy sold him Mac becuase it was so much better. Spent almost $3k on something they couldn't use. Of coarse, college guy wasn't there to see the pain and frustration of windows user forcing themselves into MAC.

Bonus story= always been a bit of a computer nerd. Built many computers. Tried linux many times. Always got calls from my Mother in law about needing help with her PC. Didn't mind, but it was a lot and always weird times.. Like late sunday night. Wife's cousin convinces her that MAC is the best and Windows PC is bad. Mother in Law calls for help with MAC and my wife tells her we don't know MAC and now all those support calls go to Cousin and Mac Geeks or whatever they are called at the store. ( I really don't know Mac and haven't really used one for anything except briefly poking around when I worked at BB.

PC stories over.

[Boomzilla]

Well, KeithL, my Windows experience is all from 25 years ago, so be sure to tint my opinions through that filter, but at that time (right around Y2K) my Windows laptop corrupted client data twice. I ran the best Windows AV programs that I could buy, and didn’t understand why the data became corrupted. Both times, I took my laptop to a GOOD local shop, and the first time, they found and removed a virus. The second time, they detected and removed a virus AND some malware, AND some trackers.

I sat down with the store owner, and we discussed my computer needs in depth. He told me that since I HAD to travel with the laptop, and that I HAD to connect to multiple client networks (some of questionable security, some via VPN and located in foreign countries) that there was NO AV software on the market that could prevent data corruption absolutely.

The store owner suggested I try Mac. I did. I never lost data again. The Apple gear was really expensive and was maddeningly irritating to learn, but it paid for itself (repeatedly) by protecting my clients’ data.

In summary, it’s a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I’ve told you my story and explained my reasons. I am NOT trying to sell you or anybody else on Apple products. I am also confident that the Windows platform is both more robust and far more reliable than it was a quarter of a century ago (when I had to make my decisions). So for the vast majority of youse guys, Windows machines offer HUGE advantages of economy, of software selection, and of simple convenience. But at my age, I am not interested in fighting the learning curve of switching back.

And that’s that.

[KeithL]

Interesting thought...
But WHY would an Apple customer assume that a problem was automatically their fault...?
Next you'll be saying that Apple customers actually think that the guy at "the Genius Bar" is smarter than they are...

Personally... I may have blamed Windows from time to time...
But that's usually when it either wouldn't do something I wanted it to do... or it insisted on doing something I didn't want it to do...
But I don't ever recall blaming Bill Gates personally...

I kind of doubt that the CEO of Apple writes much code either...
Although blaming him for their pricing policy does seem to make more sense there.

However you do bring up an interesting and rather humorous thought... which is this...

Apple's attitude does in fact seem to encourage this attitude in their users...

Most Windows users start out with the assumption that "Windows isn't always right"...
And, to be quite blunt, even when Microsoft tries to be that arrogant, nobody really believes them...

But, on the other hand, Apple starts out by being extremely arrogant...
Apple consistently acts as if "they know what's best for their customers better than their customers do"...
They literally think that "they know exactly what features you need" and "what you should pay for them"...
And "if you disagree with them then you must be a dummy"...

With Windows you have a zillion options... often a few too many... and not always ones you like...
On one hand this may be annoying or overwhelming...
But, on the other hand, it concedes that users have their own preferences, and no company is smart enough to always be right...
So you have to give your customers the option of doing things differently...

But, with Apple, their message is more like this:
WE know what's right for our customers and that's what we gave you...
If you don't like what we gave you then you must be a dummy...
What possible OTHER message could you read into labelling "tech support" as "the Genius Bar"...?

To be quite honest I was never a fan of Apple...
But the proverbial final straw was when they requested that artists submit content for iTunes in high-res lossless format.
But that, for the files their paying customers could download from iTunes, "lossy format was plenty good enough"...
(To me that makes both their priorities, and their opinion of their customers, and what their customers were willing to put up with, all quite clear.)

Nov 7, 2024 13:12:21 GMT -5 leonski said:

Is it still true that IF your Windows machine messes up you curse Bill Gates and if your Mac machine messes up you wonder what YOU did wrong?

[KeithL]

"Best" is always a matter of opinion... especially at the consumer level.
Likewise, back in those days, because computers only had one or two cores, antivirus programs always had a bigger effect on performance.

A lot of things are very different these days...

The only time I ever had a computer get seriously corrupted that I could trace the cause to an "antivirus" program was with an early version of Norton Firewall.
This was on a Pentium 2 and, in those days, Norton Firewall and Norton Antivirus were different programs.
(And, yes, many folks considered that to be "the best available"... but occasionally it screwed up.)

The thing you need to understand is that there is basically NO software of any kind that can "prevent data corruption".
You also need to understand that, back in those days, there actually were viruses that were intended to corrupt your computer.
This is what a lot of early viruses were designed to do... so it was reasonable to claim that antivirus software could potentially prevent this from happening.

However this is NOT the case with modern malware...
Modern malware is basically designed to sneak in and do things like steal passwords without being noticed.
The only way most modern malware is going to corrupt your data is by accident - if it is poorly written.
(Which is, of course, always a bigger risk with illegal software, and with software that is designed to bypass normal system operations.)

To be quite honest modern Apple and Windows computers are actually converging.
Apple computers have gotten far more complicated to configure and run...
And Windows has gotten far more restrictive and "automatic" in operation...
You will also find that, unlike "in the good old days", you probably WON'T be able to run your favorite new program on an old Mac any more.
You'll find that the latest version of your app requires a recent version of MacOS, which won't run on your old hardware, which can't be upgraded.
So, again, Apple computers are getting more like Windows... 
And now Windows has an App Store.
And a few programs may ONLY be available from the MICROSOFT App Store.

My main problems with Apple computers for personal use are simply that they cost too much and a lot of the programs I use don't run on them.

HOWEVER, in a corporate environment, there is a bigger problem... which is that it is a major nuisance to run multiple DIFFERENT types of computers.
For example, it is an absolute misery to try and get both Windows and Apple computers to, securely and reliably, connect to the same servers over the same network.
This means that, if your users insist on using both, there's going to be a lot more work for whoever manages the network...
And a lot more problems... which means more down time... and more things that "just sometimes don't work right"...
And a LOT more opportunities for security issues where the two intersect...
(This is one reason why there is still so much hate... some people like one or the other... but, in terms of network management, NOBODY wants BOTH.)
(And, yes, that goes double for Android... )

Nov 7, 2024 14:37:46 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Well, KeithL , my Windows experience is all from 25 years ago, so be sure to tint my opinions through that filter, but at that time (right around Y2K) my Windows laptop corrupted client data twice. I ran the best Windows AV programs that I could buy, and didn’t understand why the data became corrupted. Both times, I took my laptop to a GOOD local shop, and the first time, they found and removed a virus. The second time, they detected and removed a virus AND some malware, AND some trackers.

I sat down with the store owner, and we discussed my computer needs in depth. He told me that since I HAD to travel with the laptop, and that I HAD to connect to multiple client networks (some of questionable security, some via VPN and located in foreign countries) that there was NO AV software on the market that could prevent data corruption absolutely.

The store owner suggested I try Mac. I did. I never lost data again. The Apple gear was really expensive and was maddeningly irritating to learn, but it paid for itself (repeatedly) by protecting my clients’ data.

In summary, it’s a free country and everyone is entitled to their opinion. I’ve told you my story and explained my reasons. I am NOT trying to sell you or anybody else on Apple products. I am also confident that the Windows platform is both more robust and far more reliable than it was a quarter of a century ago (when I had to make my decisions). So for the vast majority of youse guys, Windows machines offer HUGE advantages of economy, of software selection, and of simple convenience. But at my age, I am not interested in fighting the learning curve of switching back.

And that’s that.

[Boomzilla]

Nov 7, 2024 15:17:32 GMT -5 KeithL said:

...To be quite honest modern Apple and Windows computers are actually converging. Apple computers have gotten far more complicated to configure and run... Windows has gotten far more restrictive and "automatic" in operation...

Fully agreed.

Nov 7, 2024 15:17:32 GMT -5 KeithL said:

My main problems with Apple computers for personal use are simply that they cost too much and a lot of the programs I use don't run on them.

Fair enough.

Nov 7, 2024 15:17:32 GMT -5 KeithL said:

...in a corporate environment, there is a bigger problem... which is that it is a major nuisance to run multiple DIFFERENT types of computers.
For example, it is an absolute misery to try and get both Windows and Apple computers to, securely and reliably, connect to the same servers over the same network. This means that, if your users insist on using both, there's going to be a lot more work for whoever manages the network...And a lot more problems... which means more down time... and more things that "just sometimes don't work right"...And a LOT more opportunities for security issues where the two intersect...

What you say is true. In a corporate environment, the IT department has the ability to select the corporate OS, and enforce uniformity. But one of the leaders of the BRMUG group was the IT leader for a major university until he retired. All software, security, and communications had (and still have) no choice but to work with every platform that might be connected - Windows, Apple, Linux, Unix, portable operating systems, etc. FWIW, the university HAD to supply him with any and every sort of hardware he needed to do his job. His choice, for both work and personal use, was (and is) a MacBook Pro. I considered that significant, probably not applicable to most of us, but significant nonetheless...

[KeithL]

One other issue TODAY with corporate networks is security.... which has gotten a lot worse really fast...

According to one survey "the fastest growing growth industry in the USA today is ransomware".
We're seeing a lot more security issues...
And a lot more in the form of attacks on major networks... like companies and universities...
And sometimes huge fines when someone "fails to be secure enough - according to the regulations"...

One recent magazine article I saw was about a doctor who had his network hacked several years ago...

He paid the criminals something like $25k to get his data back (or to not have them release it)...

And, apparently, they were good to their word when he paid them off...

But then he got hit with a $500k fine for "not having sufficient security"...

(Not that many fines have been issued so far... but, when they do, they're bad...)

So, suddenly, the stakes have gotten a LOT higher for not getting this stuff right... or even for otherwise "reasonable and honest mistakes"...

In the past it was often a situation where "the programmers like Linux; engineering insists on Windows; and the sales guys have MacBooks"...

But the possibility of a multi-million dollar fine if any one of those gets hacked changes the whole question of whether you let people pick what they prefer to use or not...

I should note that this usually has not much to do with the individual computers...

It's more a matter of how well each kind plays with the security software over at corporate...

(I'm very glad that I'm NOT involved in any of that these days...)

Note that this is ALL at the corporate level ... not individual... and there's not much the individual can do about it.
HOWEVER it does point up one thing worth mentioning...
I see all sorts of advertisements for security software, and great VPNs, and whatever...
But the simple fact is that, if your credit card gets hacked, it probably WON'T be because someone hacked your computer...
(Most of that sort of think happens when someone foolishly responds to some sort of phishing e-mail.)
It will more likely be because someone hacked the computers at the main office of the last store where you bought something with it...
And, to be quite blunt, that is entirely out of your control...

Nov 7, 2024 15:36:29 GMT -5 Boomzilla said:

Nov 7, 2024 15:17:32 GMT -5 KeithL said:

...To be quite honest modern Apple and Windows computers are actually converging. Apple computers have gotten far more complicated to configure and run... Windows has gotten far more restrictive and "automatic" in operation...

Fully agreed.

Nov 7, 2024 15:17:32 GMT -5 KeithL said:

My main problems with Apple computers for personal use are simply that they cost too much and a lot of the programs I use don't run on them.

Fair enough.

Nov 7, 2024 15:17:32 GMT -5 KeithL said:

...in a corporate environment, there is a bigger problem... which is that it is a major nuisance to run multiple DIFFERENT types of computers.
For example, it is an absolute misery to try and get both Windows and Apple computers to, securely and reliably, connect to the same servers over the same network. This means that, if your users insist on using both, there's going to be a lot more work for whoever manages the network...And a lot more problems... which means more down time... and more things that "just sometimes don't work right"...And a LOT more opportunities for security issues where the two intersect...

What you say is true. In a corporate environment, the IT department has the ability to select the corporate OS, and enforce uniformity. But one of the leaders of the BRMUG group was the IT leader for a major university until he retired. All software, security, and communications had (and still have) no choice but to work with every platform that might be connected - Windows, Apple, Linux, Unix, portable operating systems, etc. FWIW, the university HAD to supply him with any and every sort of hardware he needed to do his job. His choice, for both work and personal use, was (and is) a MacBook Pro. I considered that significant, probably not applicable to most of us, but significant nonetheless...

[leonski]

When my Nephew started college, he asked me to buy him a computer (Laptop) for school use.

So I bought him whatever MacBook was current then and later upgraded him to 10.6, which I think

in those days you had to BUY....a 3 install disk.....

I don't get what happened. He simply wore it out in 4 or 5 years.....Buttons were wore thru on

several letters. But I never heard of any repairs or problems. When replaced, Poor kid went

over to the dark side and bought a PC....

[leonski]

Nov 7, 2024 14:41:26 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Interesting thought...
But WHY would an Apple customer assume that a problem was automatically their fault...?
Next you'll be saying that Apple customers actually think that the guy at "the Genius Bar" is smarter than they are...

Personally... I may have blamed Windows from time to time...
But that's usually when it either wouldn't do something I wanted it to do... or it insisted on doing something I didn't want it to do...
But I don't ever recall blaming Bill Gates personally...

I kind of doubt that the CEO of Apple writes much code either...
Although blaming him for their pricing policy does seem to make more sense there.

However you do bring up an interesting and rather humorous thought... which is this...

Apple's attitude does in fact seem to encourage this attitude in their users...

Most Windows users start out with the assumption that "Windows isn't always right"...
And, to be quite blunt, even when Microsoft tries to be that arrogant, nobody really believes them...

But, on the other hand, Apple starts out by being extremely arrogant...
Apple consistently acts as if "they know what's best for their customers better than their customers do"...
They literally think that "they know exactly what features you need" and "what you should pay for them"...
And "if you disagree with them then you must be a dummy"...

With Windows you have a zillion options... often a few too many... and not always ones you like...
On one hand this may be annoying or overwhelming...
But, on the other hand, it concedes that users have their own preferences, and no company is smart enough to always be right...
So you have to give your customers the option of doing things differently...

But, with Apple, their message is more like this:
WE know what's right for our customers and that's what we gave you...
If you don't like what we gave you then you must be a dummy...
What possible OTHER message could you read into labelling "tech support" as "the Genius Bar"...?

To be quite honest I was never a fan of Apple...
But the proverbial final straw was when they requested that artists submit content for iTunes in high-res lossless format.
But that, for the files their paying customers could download from iTunes, "lossy format was plenty good enough"...
(To me that makes both their priorities, and their opinion of their customers, and what their customers were willing to put up with, all quite clear.)

Nov 7, 2024 13:12:21 GMT -5 leonski said:

Is it still true that IF your Windows machine messes up you curse Bill Gates and if your Mac machine messes up you wonder what YOU did wrong?

First one I built was a PII of maybe 233 meg?    8 meg of RAM would work.    This was an early Win95 machine which at that point did not yet support USB.  Had to wait for Win95b......which also came on a CD, not a dozen floppies.

All the novelty of Apple has worn off.  Ideas in all fields 'converge' on a best-type solution.      Steve Jobs has been caught.    

What is needed now is a paradigm shift.   A total change.     Like the new Aptera 3 wheel electric auto.     

I won't buy to save any music BUT lossless.   ALAC or FLAC but there may be others.   

I worked a lot in the Pre Windows world.     Every machine we had used its own system    Most were labeled keyboards....like glorified calculators, but

connected as dedicated machines to a dedicated machine.    A select few ventured into touch screen.    Many early automation efforts used the Z-80 

Microprocessor......Made till the last at a fab in Nampa Idaho until early 2000s when the company went a slightly different direction and closed / sold

that facility.   One of our machines, a furnace, used its own language for programming.    Included were 'goto' and 'return' type statements.  The mass

storage was a floppy the size of a dinner plate.  

I may do some research and see if I should buy or build a Windows system.....Now at 11?  

[Boomzilla]

Yee-Hah - “the old days” of computing. In college, I learned Fortran using card decks. My first personal computer (an absolutely monumental waste of money) was an Apple III, which we got because my wife used one at work. Then came Commodore 64 & 128. Then an Intel-based pc where we experimented with various flavors of DOS. Then Windows versions on 286, 396SX, 386, 486, Pentium 1, 2, & 3s. And then I went into business for myself and turned to Apple products again. I don’t remember any of the earlier products with any particular fondness…

Then came the web & I had to learn HTML (no WYSIWYG products back then). Was what it was…

[leonski]

In '68 my HS had a Mini IBM Mainframe installed and we had 3 or 4 punchcard machines AND the 'compiler'.....
Computer was small with lost-in-space lighting and a 'Winchester' hard drive of some wacky small capacity.
None of those tape drivess or anything else. It was small and kept in a very cold room.....By the time I was
in school in Florida, computers had changed a lot....into something more recognizable today. Same school
had a 10 watt FM radio station. WHFH, IIRC. Now? 1.5kw AND a television outlet. Catch ALL HF football
broadcast LIVE!

My personal BIG nemisis would be early versions of Norton. The one with Crash Guard actually caused a
lot more problems then it 'cured'.....Than there was Windows Me......Junkware.

Loved XP, though. And 2000 Professional.

[KeithL]

I have to say that, unless you want to get into insane gaming machines, it's easier to just buy.

Building a system has gotten complicated... 

We've got a bunch of different CPUs... some of which only work - or fit - on some motherboards...
And different types of memory... which again have compatibility details... and can affect performance significantly...
Likewise, some of the fancier graphics cards have rather extreme power supply requirements, and insane cooling requirements...
It's gone past the point where you can assume that things will work together... to the point where things catching fire may be a real risk...
Gamers fuss with special cooling, and overclocking, and all sorts of optimizations... and I personally don't want to bother.

Unless you really ENJOY all that nonsense, for normal office stuff, a nice normal Dell or Asus machine will do fine...
For "simple gaming" spend a bit more for something like an Asus gaming machine...
Note that some games, and some graphics apps, do graphics co-processing using the cores on an NVidia graphics card.
In which case be sure to look at and follow their recommendations... on some it makes a HUGE difference... 
More cores obviously being better... and more expensive... but ONLY for things that use them.
(Like between 10 minutes and twenty HOURS to upscale the same video file.)

As for Windows versions...

I don't personally like Windows 11 quite as much as Windows 10...
But there isn't a lot of difference... and they're pushing hard to get everyone to upgrade...
Any current computer can run Windows 11... and they won't stop pestering until you upgrade...
Also, like it or not, new programs are tested mostly to work on Windows 11... even though they "should" work on Windows 10.
So, if you want to make your life simple, bite the bullet and go with Windows 11...
I really liked Windows 7... but a lot of stuff won't run on it... and a lot of stuff doesn't even have drivers for Windows 7 or Windows 8.

I would also advise getting a reasonably large SSD for a boot drive...
And a nice big spinny drive for data...

Nov 7, 2024 22:35:43 GMT -5 leonski said:

Nov 7, 2024 14:41:26 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Interesting thought...
But WHY would an Apple customer assume that a problem was automatically their fault...?
Next you'll be saying that Apple customers actually think that the guy at "the Genius Bar" is smarter than they are...

Personally... I may have blamed Windows from time to time...
But that's usually when it either wouldn't do something I wanted it to do... or it insisted on doing something I didn't want it to do...
But I don't ever recall blaming Bill Gates personally...

I kind of doubt that the CEO of Apple writes much code either...
Although blaming him for their pricing policy does seem to make more sense there.

However you do bring up an interesting and rather humorous thought... which is this...

Apple's attitude does in fact seem to encourage this attitude in their users...

Most Windows users start out with the assumption that "Windows isn't always right"...
And, to be quite blunt, even when Microsoft tries to be that arrogant, nobody really believes them...

But, on the other hand, Apple starts out by being extremely arrogant...
Apple consistently acts as if "they know what's best for their customers better than their customers do"...
They literally think that "they know exactly what features you need" and "what you should pay for them"...
And "if you disagree with them then you must be a dummy"...

With Windows you have a zillion options... often a few too many... and not always ones you like...
On one hand this may be annoying or overwhelming...
But, on the other hand, it concedes that users have their own preferences, and no company is smart enough to always be right...
So you have to give your customers the option of doing things differently...

But, with Apple, their message is more like this:
WE know what's right for our customers and that's what we gave you...
If you don't like what we gave you then you must be a dummy...
What possible OTHER message could you read into labelling "tech support" as "the Genius Bar"...?

To be quite honest I was never a fan of Apple...
But the proverbial final straw was when they requested that artists submit content for iTunes in high-res lossless format.
But that, for the files their paying customers could download from iTunes, "lossy format was plenty good enough"...
(To me that makes both their priorities, and their opinion of their customers, and what their customers were willing to put up with, all quite clear.)

First one I built was a PII of maybe 233 meg?    8 meg of RAM would work.    This was an early Win95 machine which at that point did not yet support USB.  Had to wait for Win95b......which also came on a CD, not a dozen floppies.

All the novelty of Apple has worn off.  Ideas in all fields 'converge' on a best-type solution.      Steve Jobs has been caught.    

What is needed now is a paradigm shift.   A total change.     Like the new Aptera 3 wheel electric auto.     

I won't buy to save any music BUT lossless.   ALAC or FLAC but there may be others.   

I worked a lot in the Pre Windows world.     Every machine we had used its own system    Most were labeled keyboards....like glorified calculators, but

connected as dedicated machines to a dedicated machine.    A select few ventured into touch screen.    Many early automation efforts used the Z-80 

Microprocessor......Made till the last at a fab in Nampa Idaho until early 2000s when the company went a slightly different direction and closed / sold

that facility.   One of our machines, a furnace, used its own language for programming.    Included were 'goto' and 'return' type statements.  The mass

storage was a floppy the size of a dinner plate.  

I may do some research and see if I should buy or build a Windows system.....Now at 11?  

[leonski]

Keith? It's ALWAYS been in a state of 'flux'.
When I built my first machine? AGP Graphics slot was new. That went thru several revisions over time.
But my motherboard ALSO had both PCI and ISA slots. One of 'em was an 8 bit slot! I doubt ANY availability for anything today! Now? GONE.
I may still have a card for one of those slots. It went with a SCSI connected scanner.
First USB ports were cool. But we are at least at USB3 which is an amazing improvement. My 2009 Imac also has another port, which also came in flavors.
My CAMERA (Canon professional) supported that port.
Bus speed continues to rise and each revision requires new memory. I see several options for mac....all over 200 pins per module.
At one point, Gates claimed that some -by todays standards- ridiculous small amount of memory was all you'd ever need. Nutty.
CPUs have ALWAYS seemed to have a selection of dedicated MBs. Than you get into the support 'chipset' that goes WITH any CPU choice.

So? It's ALWAYS been complicated and not getting easier. Was once Toms Hardware Guide to help see thru the fog....