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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:57:14 GMT -5
I had my mains set to small and tried various x over points. Audyssey started them at 40 and I went all the way to 120 and everything in between. I also adjusted the phase on the sub to as many positions as I could find I'm horrible at explaining stuff dude... LOL OK Set it to LFE+main right off the bat. Then set L/R speakers to LARGE! Then set LFE xover to 80Hz. At this point all frequencies are being set to mains and stuff below the LFE xover are being sent to the sub if set to LFE+main mode! Now use the sub xover to lower it's xover point to just when the L/Rs rolls off. With those towers it will prob be around 60-70Hz. This will make a HUGE difference in your bass response! You now have to level your sub so it matches your mains at or near LFE xover point. I see, that makes perfect sense. Damnit now I have to buy another sub and try this out. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 22:09:52 GMT -5
You should though ultimately have a cut on your mains by setting the speakers to small because of phase and potential coupling of your mains woofers to the sub. This is why people are told to set it to small even if they have full range towers. I have found though I can use the LARGE setting and set plate xover right where the mains roll off naturally and discard the 80Hz to plate xover signal at the plate-amp.
This is nice also because you can just turn off your sub when you don't want it and still get full frequencies sent to your mains.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 22:17:55 GMT -5
You should though ultimately have a cut on your mains by setting the speakers to small because of phase and potential coupling of your mains woofers to the sub. This is why people are told to set it to small even if they have full range towers. Bah, audio is like wine. One person says sweet and smooth the other says dry and oaky. I noticed you have used the oppo 105 as a pre, what are your impressions? Is it fully capable of running a minimalist home theater? |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 22:24:06 GMT -5
When speakers are set to small, LFE or LFE+main doesn't do anything. Large speakers with LFE+main is sometimes called "double bass mode" because where the mains and sub overlap they will sum. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 22:41:27 GMT -5
You should though ultimately have a cut on your mains by setting the speakers to small because of phase and potential coupling of your mains woofers to the sub. This is why people are told to set it to small even if they have full range towers. Bah, audio is like wine. One person says sweet and smooth the other says dry and oaky. I noticed you have used the oppo 105 as a pre, what are your impressions? Is it fully capable of running a minimalist home theater? YEAH I set LFE+main Large mode and most people set LFE small I guess as a matter of taste. I have found I can easily get the mains and LFE in phase if lined up in front and use the sub plate xover to bring them right to where they will start to couple and extend the lowend of the mains a bit more! Right where they couple and sum you'll have a bump but you can take care of that in your DSP. |
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Post by jefft51 on Feb 17, 2014 23:53:36 GMT -5
From what I gather, not all AVRs or Pre-Pros handle this the same, but it's my understanding that generally setting the mains to Large, they are sent the whole frequency range. If that is so, then setting the xover for the sub should be where the mains drop off. So if the mains go down to 40hz, you should also set the sub about there. If you use REW you can get a picture, but listening should also work to adjust the exact setting.
If you want to set the xover on your mains to 70 or 80, you generally need to set them to 'small' unless that's where they naturally drop off. The sub should match that.
The sub will output from it's lowest sound up to the crossover point and drop off as frequency INcreases, usually at a 12 or 24 dB slope. The mains will output from their highest sound(frequency) DOWN to it's xover point and drop off as frequency DEcreases. Ideally where the frequencies of the mains and sub meet, they are both sloping down, but the combination of the two make a smooth transition. Too close and you get a bump and too far apart, you get a hole.
My thought in my post above is that if you like the sound of your speakers, to set them to large so they get the whole signal and adjust the sub to that. You do want to send LFE + Main to your sub. The advantage of setting the xover point higher, to say 80hz is that the sub can take some of the load from the mains (if the mains go lower)which may be useful if you are using an AVR and watching movies or listening to bass heavy music.
Jeff
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Post by pop on Feb 18, 2014 0:55:36 GMT -5
BTW since you are rethinking your setup. You can get 4 pendragon surrounds (Use 2 as your front LR) and a pendragon center from Tekton for 4k. Just saying. Actually this price might include the sub? I am not sure.
You are all about the Pendragons, this is a viable option for 4k. You would definitely want a sub in this setup though.
You could sell your Mlores and purchase a very capable sub, preamp, and amp. (UMC-200, UPA-5)
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typea
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Post by typea on Feb 18, 2014 9:14:58 GMT -5
For music I doubt youll ever achieve the same performance with a bookshelf/sub setup as you would with a tower alone covering all but the lowest of frequencies. Cause no matter how optimum your sub placement, calibration, and room treatment your sub driver was only really designed to reach low, it will sound muddy the higher you ask it to go. If considering bookshelf I recommend you experiment with Hsu's mid bass monitor (they have a good return policy if youre not impressed) to make up for the lack of mid bass youll get with a bookshelf. I noticed when I dropped a pair into my 7.2 system it took the stress off both the speakers and sub, my pair of mbm only cover from 80hz-50Hz but it made a big difference. Doesnt make a big difference for movies but for music it does give you a far more effortless and snappy performance when using just bookshelf speakers. They also allow for midbass generated near-field, even with proper room treatments thats still a benefit over far-field towers producing those frequencies. Just my experience, Im not associated with Hsu in any way besides being a happy customer.
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Post by lionear on Feb 20, 2014 15:01:25 GMT -5
From what I gather, not all AVRs or Pre-Pros handle this the same, but it's my understanding that generally setting the mains to Large, they are sent the whole frequency range. If that is so, then setting the xover for the sub should be where the mains drop off. So if the mains go down to 40hz, you should also set the sub about there. If you use REW you can get a picture, but listening should also work to adjust the exact setting. If you want to set the xover on your mains to 70 or 80, you generally need to set them to 'small' unless that's where they naturally drop off. The sub should match that. The sub will output from it's lowest sound up to the crossover point and drop off as frequency INcreases, usually at a 12 or 24 dB slope. The mains will output from their highest sound(frequency) DOWN to it's xover point and drop off as frequency DEcreases. Ideally where the frequencies of the mains and sub meet, they are both sloping down, but the combination of the two make a smooth transition. Too close and you get a bump and too far apart, you get a hole. My thought in my post above is that if you like the sound of your speakers, to set them to large so they get the whole signal and adjust the sub to that. You do want to send LFE + Main to your sub. The advantage of setting the xover point higher, to say 80hz is that the sub can take some of the load from the mains (if the mains go lower)which may be useful if you are using an AVR and watching movies or listening to bass heavy music. Jeff Yes. I'd send the full frequencies the two main speakers in order to preserve the imaging info, then adjust the sub so that it fills in the very lowest frequencies as the main speakers drop off. My set-up is as follows: Sub in the corner. The room helps reinforce the bass, so the sub doesn't need to work too hard. Some people suggest that it should be in the right corner because the double bass section in an orchestra is on the right. But I haven't heard a difference between putting it to the left or the right. Main speakers operated full frequency in order to preserve soundstage. Subwoofer set to about 38 Hz. It will be below the -3dB point of the main speakers. The manufacturer puts the -3dB point for my speakers at 45 Hz. Adjust the volume until there's just a tiny bit more body in the low midrange, and then you might even reduce it a bit more from there. If the sound is thick and lumpy then the level and/or frequency is too high. A lot will depend on the in-room response of the main speakers and the sub. And in-room response is a tricky subject. So you have to do it by ear. Most of the time, you shouldn't hear the sub. It should only give more strength to properly recorded program material that has real bass - like a full orchestra or organ. As for the room, you can look up "pressure zone" on Google. Frequencies below the pressure zone frequency are perceived as changes in air pressure, not sound. An "ideal" listening room should thus have a length or width of about 28 ft because that's half the wavelength of a 20Hz signal, at sea level. This is, of course, not set in stone because one can get very used to the sound in a smaller room and the emphasis should always be on quality, not quantity. |
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Post by jdubs on Feb 20, 2014 20:12:59 GMT -5
redog- I'll get flamed from the HT crowd, but for two channel with large speakers, you want to run your mains full range and cross-over your sub below where your mains play. I have quite a bit of experience with this.
I know the SVS subs are good, but the best subs for this integration IMHO is REL. But, really any brand should be capable.
I'd love to help you out with this if I can. Or, just be happy with your mains (but I think you are giving up a lot, as stated above.)
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 20, 2014 21:47:45 GMT -5
I'd send the full frequencies the two main speakers in order to preserve the imaging info As hard as I have tried over the years I can't discern directionality in frequencies much below around 90 hz (wavelength around 3.8 metres/12.5 feet). Cheers Gary |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 2:48:07 GMT -5
Redog, I'll give my best try here at advice that perhaps will improve your 2 speaker/sub system. First please understand not everyone here is familiar with each of the thousand models of speakers. I had to go to the Tekton site to figure out which speaker you own. You have the Tekton Mini Lore (mid towers)/$650/pr. You have given us the room dimensions which is very helpful. I see nowhere a list of your other equipment, amps, preamp, integrated amp, AVR receiver, etc. all information that helps. No specifics on what you mean by upgrades? 5.1 system? I don't care for the Tekton site as it gives very skimpy specs (no product weight). Although the specs list the frequency response as 38Hz - 20kHz, that information is absolutely useless in determining how low your speakers extend in the lower bass. Without any reference as in -3dB's at 38Hz, the 38Hz spec is useless. Without being able to find a review on these speakers with actual measured low bass performance we can only guess at the realistic low bass in your room. Note that many times the manufacturer exaggerates the specified speaker sensitivity (aka efficiency), here 95dB's. That's why I like objective speaker reviews with tested results. That said I would suspect the sensitivity to be quite high and lend itself to very dynamic playback levels in your modest sized room, great for dynamic (uncompressed) rock, pop and classical, etc. The rather short height of these mini towers might place the tweeters too low for you. Placing them on a stand, base or sub stand might raise them some or even consider titling them back slightly. OK, lets get down to the bass performance of the Mini Lore's. IMO the 38Hz low end is most likely exaggerated. I would guess from the little I can deduce and from the subjective reviews (although I don't always put too much validity into many subjective reviews), that the effective quality low end for setting your crossover to a sub would be about 80Hz and no lower than 70Hz. Don't be shocked. One review (Stereo Mojo) states " It quickly became apparent the M-lore does not produce sub-bass as the deep compression of the drum hits were just not there." This doesn't mean they won't reproduce the 40-80Hz range, it only means this is the lowest octave and they are straining to reproduce this range with more distortion than the upper frequencies. Enter the sub soon! Don't get me wrong here. Many people might be very happy with the Mini Lore's as I read that they have a slightly elevated output in the 50-100Hz range. These are great factory direct way of getting some big time slam in your room. That is a very common characteristic in speakers that sound impressive bass wise with an emphasis but higher distorted playback in this range. This can sound good to some but maybe boomy and hard on the amp especially if one also adds any bass boost with bass controls or EQ. These are a great factory direct way of getting some big time slam in your room. This is a perfect speaker along with larger bookshelf speakers in your room to match with a sub or two. If you want to fill the last octave strongly, detailed and cleanly in the 30-60Hz or 40-80Hz range then a top quality sub(s) with high output is essential here. I hope you had the preamp sub controls set up correctly and any you used on the PB1000. I can't tell you how many people I've seen get confused and have the setting wrong. If there was no sub crossover (low pass filter) on your preamp, then you would have set the dial on the sub to about 70-80Hz (not at 40Hz! -- see below). That single sub is perhaps not an adequate match for your high sensitivity Mini Lores. I have read reviews on both the 1000 and 2000 series SVS subs, both sealed and ported. These are both excellent sub series for the money. SVS is at the top of their craft along with Rythmik, PSA Audio, HSU and Outlaw Audio. I would stay with the ported subs especially if you eventually intend to go HT. While most folks recommend two subs with L&R speakers that you paid $650 for it might be difficult for you to pay $950-$1300 for subs from SVS. I have set up and helped set up 2.1 and 5.1 systems within one sub and many times had very good good results. With SVS I would consider the PB-2000. I think the Mini Lore's just have too much dynamic output for the PB-1000 to keep up with if you had them set up correctly. Other possibilities would be the PSA XV15. It has a slightly higher volume output than the PB2000 but a little higher distortion. The HSU is a brute but some don't like the looks. The Rythmik FV15HP is awesome but over $1300. The Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX is an excellent best buy at $649. All of these are ported, great for movies and most are very good also for music. They are also big and heavy, check the specs. I presume you might be going to HT. If you stay with 2 channel music, check out the somewhat smaller excellent sealed models from these brands. Do not set the Mini Lores to "large." They should be set to "small." At small the lower bass from the crossover at 80Hz (or 70Hz) and down from all 2 or 5 channels along with the LFE 0.1 channel bass (if any in a movies sound track) will be combined and sent to the sub. This redirected bass below 80Hz, except as it rolls off, is no longer played thru the 2 or 5 speakers. Don't get confused by the frequently misused LFE term. It is simply special effects in movies (and sometimes mistakenly in music) that end up 10dB's louder than the normal low bass signals. It is used for very loud explosions. etc. All the other bass that goes to the sub is the lower bass that the sub can reproduce better than your main speakers. We don't let the tweeter and the mid overlap, the mid and the woofer overlap, and the same idea goes with the woofer and the subwoofer. Except for the -3dB signal plus the roll off slope (usually 12-24dB), these signal are meant to be reproduced separately by only one type of driver. In your system, the bass below 70-80Hz (plus the LFE channel if any) should be reproduced by the sub and not the Mini Lores. Reproducing this lower bass both thru the sub and the main speakers makes for boomy. ill-defined, phase problems and poor potty training for your kids. Some nuts here will disagree on my post comments. Normally, set the bass crossover in the preamp, pre-pro or AVR and not on the sub. Leave the sub's crossover bypassed (turned off, or set to max on the dial, or sometimes LFE on the dial) unless you have a stereo preamp without a sub crossover and then set the sub cross to 70-80Hz. I use the term crossover instead of LPF here as it seems more clear to many. When in doubt read the manual (RTFM --- oh what a bizarre idea,  ) or call the sub experts at the manufacturer. An old fashioned and good way to manually set the sub's volume is to play music with substantial and clean bass below 80Hz. Turn the sub volume down and then very slowly turn it back up until you just become aware of the sub as a separate sound source and then turn it back down ever so slightly. Otherwise use the test tone method or as a last resort the auto room setup. Later with some time and the old method (I use) of doing a FR evaluation with a Radio Shack meter/tripod and a Test CD (preferably 6-12 tones/octave or even one tone every Hz), one can find any significant peaks in 80Hz-20Hz area. With EQ settings like in the Emo pre-pro's one can hopefully obtain a fairly flat FR (+/- 3dB's or so) at the sweet spot. Lower peaks, don't boost dips. The younger smarter crowd use the REW system, Behringer BFD, or even the Odyssey (  ) or Emo-Q or Dirac systems. You should now have a very smooth blend between the mains and the sub and not be aware of the sub as a separate sound source. Normally one cannot locate the bass sounds below 80Hz. Good luck finding the right sub(s). |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2014 10:30:17 GMT -5
Redog, I'll give my best try here at advice that perhaps will improve your 2 speaker/sub system. First please understand not everyone here is familiar with each of the thousand models of speakers. I had to go to the Tekton site to figure out which speaker you own. You have the Tekton Mini Lore (mid towers)/$650/pr. You have given us the room dimensions which is very helpful. I see nowhere a list of your other equipment, amps, preamp, integrated amp, AVR receiver, etc. all information that helps. No specifics on what you mean by upgrades? 5.1 system? I don't care for the Tekton site as it gives very skimpy specs (no product weight). Although the specs list the frequency response as 38Hz - 20kHz, that information is absolutely useless in determining how low your speakers extend in the lower bass. Without any reference as in -3dB's at 38Hz, the 38Hz spec is useless. Without being able to find a review on these speakers with actual measured low bass performance we can only guess at the realistic low bass in your room. Note that many times the manufacturer exaggerates the specified speaker sensitivity (aka efficiency), here 95dB's. That's why I like objective speaker reviews with tested results. That said I would suspect the sensitivity to be quite high and lend itself to very dynamic playback levels in your modest sized room, great for dynamic (uncompressed) rock, pop and classical, etc. The rather short height of these mini towers might place the tweeters too low for you. Placing them on a stand, base or sub stand might raise them some or even consider titling them back slightly. OK, lets get down to the bass performance of the Mini Lore's. IMO the 38Hz low end is most likely exaggerated. I would guess from the little I can deduce and from the subjective reviews (although I don't always put too much validity into many subjective reviews), that the effective quality low end for setting your crossover to a sub would be about 80Hz and no lower than 70Hz. Don't be shocked. One review (Stereo Mojo) states " It quickly became apparent the M-lore does not produce sub-bass as the deep compression of the drum hits were just not there." This doesn't mean they won't reproduce the 40-80Hz range, it only means this is the lowest octave and they are straining to reproduce this range with more distortion than the upper frequencies. Enter the sub soon! Don't get me wrong here. Many people might be very happy with the Mini Lore's as I read that they have a slightly elevated output in the 50-100Hz range. These are great factory direct way of getting some big time slam in your room. That is a very common characteristic in speakers that sound impressive bass wise with an emphasis but higher distorted playback in this range. This can sound good to some but maybe boomy and hard on the amp especially if one also adds any bass boost with bass controls or EQ. These are a great factory direct way of getting some big time slam in your room. This is a perfect speaker along with larger bookshelf speakers in your room to match with a sub or two. If you want to fill the last octave strongly, detailed and cleanly in the 30-60Hz or 40-80Hz range then a top quality sub(s) with high output is essential here. I hope you had the preamp sub controls set up correctly and any you used on the PB1000. I can't tell you how many people I've seen get confused and have the setting wrong. If there was no sub crossover (low pass filter) on your preamp, then you would have set the dial on the sub to about 70-80Hz (not at 40Hz! -- see below). That single sub is perhaps not an adequate match for your high sensitivity Mini Lores. I have read reviews on both the 1000 and 2000 series SVS subs, both sealed and ported. These are both excellent sub series for the money. SVS is at the top of their craft along with Rythmik, PSA Audio, HSU and Outlaw Audio. I would stay with the ported subs especially if you eventually intend to go HT. While most folks recommend two subs with L&R speakers that you paid $650 for it might be difficult for you to pay $950-$1300 for subs from SVS. I have set up and helped set up 2.1 and 5.1 systems within one sub and many times had very good good results. With SVS I would consider the PB-2000. I think the Mini Lore's just have too much dynamic output for the PB-1000 to keep up with if you had them set up correctly. Other possibilities would be the PSA XV15. It has a slightly higher volume output than the PB2000 but a little higher distortion. The HSU is a brute but some don't like the looks. The Rythmik FV15HP is awesome but over $1300. The Outlaw Audio LFM-1 EX is an excellent best buy at $649. All of these are ported, great for movies and most are very good also for music. They are also big and heavy, check the specs. I presume you might be going to HT. If you stay with 2 channel music, check out the somewhat smaller excellent sealed models from these brands. Do not set the Mini Lores to "large." They should be set to "small." At small the lower bass from the crossover at 80Hz (or 70Hz) and down from all 2 or 5 channels along with the LFE 0.1 channel bass (if any in a movies sound track) will be combined and sent to the sub. This redirected bass below 80Hz, except as it rolls off, is no longer played thru the 2 or 5 speakers. Don't get confused by the frequently misused LFE term. It is simply special effects in movies (and sometimes mistakenly in music) that end up 10dB's louder than the normal low bass signals. It is used for very loud explosions. etc. All the other bass that goes to the sub is the lower bass that the sub can reproduce better than your main speakers. We don't let the tweeter and the mid overlap, the mid and the woofer overlap, and the same idea goes with the woofer and the subwoofer. Except for the -3dB signal plus the roll off slope (usually 12-24dB), these signal are meant to be reproduced separately by only one type of driver. In your system, the bass below 70-80Hz (plus the LFE channel if any) should be reproduced by the sub and not the Mini Lores. Reproducing this lower bass both thru the sub and the main speakers makes for boomy. ill-defined, phase problems and poor potty training for your kids. Some nuts here will disagree on my post comments. Normally, set the bass crossover in the preamp, pre-pro or AVR and not on the sub. Leave the sub's crossover bypassed (turned off, or set to max on the dial, or sometimes LFE on the dial) unless you have a stereo preamp without a sub crossover and then set the sub cross to 70-80Hz. I use the term crossover instead of LPF here as it seems more clear to many. When in doubt read the manual (RTFM --- oh what a bizarre idea, ) or call the sub experts at the manufacturer. An old fashioned and good way to manually set the sub's volume is to play music with substantial and clean bass below 80Hz. Turn the sub volume down and then very slowly turn it back up until you just become aware of the sub as a separate sound source and then turn it back down ever so slightly. Otherwise use the test tone method or as a last resort the auto room setup. Later with some time and the old method (I use) of doing a FR evaluation with a Radio Shack meter/tripod and a Test CD (preferably 6-12 tones/octave or even one tone every Hz), one can find any significant peaks in 80Hz-20Hz area. With EQ settings like in the Emo pre-pro's one can hopefully obtain a fairly flat FR (+/- 3dB's or so) at the sweet spot. Lower peaks, don't boost dips. The younger smarter crowd use the REW system, Behringer BFD, or even the Odyssey ( ) or Emo-Q or Dirac systems. You should now have a very smooth blend between the mains and the sub and not be aware of the sub as a separate sound source. Normally one cannot locate the bass sounds below 80Hz. Good luck finding the right sub(s). Thanks for the great information! I have no doubt after doing some more research and reading your/others posts here that I must not have integrated the sub properly. Currently I am using a Marantz NR1403 AVR. I had the Speakers set to small and tried every crossover point from 40 to 100hz on the avr with the sub crossover set all the way up. I tried all the phase settings. semed like 180 was the sweet spot. I am currently in the process of demoing some different speaker brands, and I plan to upgrade from the Marantz to seperates. I just have not decided on if I should go full range on the towers, or do the sub-sat configuration. Thanks again for the time you have taken to help me out! |
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Post by lionear on Feb 21, 2014 22:49:04 GMT -5
I'd send the full frequencies the two main speakers in order to preserve the imaging info As hard as I have tried over the years I can't discern directionality in frequencies much below around 90 hz (wavelength around 3.8 metres/12.5 feet). Cheers Gary I guess I'm a bit "old school" about a few things. As far as frequencies go, I think there's reason to believe that one particular frequency can impact our hearing another frequency. So even you can't locate an 80Hz signal as coming from the left, you might hear its effect on higher frequencies coming from the left. Sending the full frequencies to the main speakers keeps just one filter (the speaker's crossover) in the system. I have never played with a preamp that does EQ or room correction, or treat speakers as "large" or "small". It just seems like a lot of things can go wrong. Of course, done right, perhaps a lot of things may go very well, too. I just don't have any experience with that. For me, it just triggers bad memories like treble and bass controls, as well as the great "Loudness" button. My first step in hi-fi was to switch off the "Loudness" button on my Dad's Pioneer Rondo 3000x because the really, really expensive preamps in the specialist hi-fi stores didn't have one. This was around 1975 - when I was a teenager. I remember it took a while to get used to the sound - but I could never go back. (And I cannot believe this guy has a mint Rondo, still running - www.youtube.com/watch?v=oskoVWejLgA - ah, such fond memories!) |
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Post by knucklehead on Feb 21, 2014 23:34:08 GMT -5
I have full range Emotiva Reference speakers - ERT 8.3's. I had little luck blending them with a sub when I had a USP-1 preamp. Part of that problem is the design of the USP-1 - bass management is not a strong suit of the USP-1. I sold it and a XPA-5 and bought a Harman Kardon HK990 integrated amp. The XPA-5 was swapped for the Yamaha AVR I have now - it works great - but I seldom turn it on! The HK990 is something special IMO since it is a two channel integrated amp and has room correction that WORKS! It also has built in DACs - and is dual mono-block amps. It has integrated a single DIY 12" sealed sub with the ERT's about as good as I've ever heard. My subjective opinion of course - I've only been listening to music for the better part of 50 years. I've tried AVRs and prepro's - including the UMC-200 which worked 'ok' for 2 channel but is better for movies. I set the crossover at 60hz - sending everything from there down to the sub. Its the only setting I changed. I tried everything from 40hz up to 100hz and 60hz seems to be the sweet spot. The balance is IMO about as perfect as it can get. Trying to set a sub up to blend in with bookshelf or full range speakers is almost impossible without some kind of external crossover - be it in an AVR or an integrated amp like the HK990. Dials on subs might get you close - but usually lack somewhere. I've found it easier to set up bookshelfs with a sub without room correction since most of them drop off fast somewhere around 80hz or so. Having a sub and speakers both playing the same frequencies will give you a fat spot in the bass. IMO that sounds like crap. There are other integrated amps available that have manual crossovers but AFAIK there isn't anything else that does what the HK990 does in a two channel unit. If you are into 2 channel as much as I am you might want to give it or something like it a try. The next best option is your AVR or preamp processor. I think two channel preamps like the XSP-1 should have room correction. Times are changing - so is the technology behind good music. If the room correction in the soon to be released XMC-1 is as good as Emotiva says I think more than a few guys are going to 'discover' how good two channel can be with room correction. Setting up two channel and sub will be a snap. |
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Post by garbulky on Feb 21, 2014 23:40:28 GMT -5
have you done the subwoofer crawl? That should help you integrate the sub a bit better.
While you do this the bass you should be testing out would be this (turn on HD):
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Post by Perpendicular on Feb 22, 2014 19:15:54 GMT -5
I hear the Stealth 8 can be used in a medium size room too. Not sure about the 6 but they sure sound good in my small living room. I love and was surprised by the amount of tight bass. Especially, for a ported design. I don't miss a Sub with music but feel you may need one with certain movies.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2014 19:36:32 GMT -5
I hear the Stealth 8 can be used in a medium size room too. Not sure about the 6 but they sure sound good in my small living room. I love and was surprised by the amount of tight bass. Especially, for a ported design. I don't miss a Sub with music but feel you may need one with certain movies. How well does the 6 disappear? I wonder if the tweeter is similar to the triton 7 by goldenear? I am currently auditioning the goldenear 7 and all I can say is wow. The tweeter is something of fairy tales, the bass is tight and punchy. Its just an all round great speaker. i have been considering three stealth 8 and two 6 connected to an oppo 105 as a pre. still lost, and as good as the triton 7 is compared to my current mlores, I still want better. |
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Post by jdubs on Feb 25, 2014 19:15:39 GMT -5
I can't keep quiet any longer! I joined this thread hoping to help someone and have a good discussion on subwoofer set-up. I PM'ed the OP but didn't hear back... maybe he/she didn't get it. I think the most important thing to consider is speaker selection here. The second is speaker placement (and we haven't even touched "subwoofer"). If you get one of those two wrong, you will be asking the sub to make up for a shortcoming and you will not be happy with the result. Also consider, you get a pair of speakers for the way they sound: the tonal qualities, the dynamics, etc. The more you ask the sub to do, the less you are getting out of your speakers (and amplifier BTW). My preference is to purchase a pair of speakers that I like and a well matched amplifier or amplifiers. And then get a sub that plays BELOW my speakers and is good at playing low thus accentuating what I have. Consider this passage: "REL products are not traditional subwoofers, but true Sub-Bass Systems. A REL is designed to augment the performance of “full range” speaker systems in order to provide, in certain cases, useful response below 15 Hz. Therefore, for the moment, set aside everything you’ve been taught about subwoofers and how they are integrated into a stereo or home cinema system." IMHO, in a 2ch system the sub plays a dramatically different role than in home theater. The THX standard for the crossover is 80hz. This is intended to support speakers that are small, hanging on a wall and many times behind a screen. All poor qualities for bass reproduction. Plus, the sub is there for digital effects. In 2ch, the speakers are many times larger with more power behind them (see above). The sub should then be a sub-bass system that reproduces frequencies that the speakers cannot. I realize this isn't always the case, but in my opinion its the best case scenario. There has been some discussion on the directionality and imaging of frequencies below 80hz. What is being missed is that there are harmonics that have some effect. There could be (probably are) harmonics in the vocal that are frequencies below what your speakers are producing, especially if you have them crossed over high. Read up on harmonics here This could very well have an effect on imaging. By contrast, having a system that can reproduce the lower harmonics will make even the midrange sound better; whether there is a subwoofer or not. Finally, someone mentioned the drawbacks of using the knob on the back of a sub to dial it in. If you know how to do it, it is actually very easy and you can integrate it seamlessly. That is, if you are truly using it as a sub-bass system and crossing it over below your speakers. Is an external crossover better, such as in a pre-amp or pre-pro? Maybe sometimes... they aren't all created equally. And I prefer to not even have it in the signal path. Oh, and you need the right speakers in the first place! |
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Post by jdubs on Feb 26, 2014 9:21:20 GMT -5
See this link: Read here for info on Room ModesIf you place a speaker where it is creating an anti-mode, you will be lacking frequencies below 200Hz (I've read as high as 300). If your speaker placement is poor you will have a space in the frequencies between where your speakers are and your sub. This will cause it to never blend and you will hear speakers and a sub instead of blended music. This will be regardless of how you have it crossed over! Your seating position should be either 38% from the front wall or 38% from the back wall. There are some good articles that tell about speaker placement. Follow these to get close, but you'll still need to move the speakers to get the most out of your room modes. First off, speakers up against the wall is never good! But, to find how your speakers react with the room, push them against the wall. (Turn off your sub). Play a track that has a good natural bass track (plucked bass, not electronic; I was taught to use Jennifer Warnes, Ballad of the Runaway Horse). Sit where you listen and have someone move one speaker out slowly until it sounds full. You are just looking for the most bass you can get and aren't concerned with quality. This is where the speaker is reacting with the room at its best. Do the same with the other speaker. Once they are pulled out into the room you will tune quality by moving them closer together or further apart for imaging, toe in, and rake (generally you want them raked back a bit). Once you have gone through all of that, you can worry about the sub. |
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) or call the sub experts at the manufacturer. 
) or Emo-Q or Dirac systems.
