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Post by autiger on Feb 17, 2014 20:26:17 GMT -5
It's all part of the quest. Some things work and some don't. I love my sub with my bookshelves for 2 ch, but bookshelves need a sub. Maybe a different make of sub? I assume you played with the crossover and volume etc. I like mine turn down a little for 2 ch from its volume for movies. Don't give up if you need the what a sub provides but in the end it's all about what satisfies YOU. Some people are satisfied with the sound of MP3 compression but I think they sound hollow. Good luck with your quest for the best sound.
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 17, 2014 20:29:06 GMT -5
Unless it's integrated properly it's not going to sound right.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 17, 2014 20:33:38 GMT -5
"Crazy", no I wouldn't say so. I could say "unusual", as most (not all) people prefer their sound with at least a dash of sub for the reproduction of lower frequencies. Subs are perhaps just not your thing and/or your preferences in music doesn't reveal the deficiencies in your main speakers. From memory your speakers are good for around 40 hz and there is a lot of information below that frequency. Double bass, tuba, contrabassoon, harp, pipe organ (of course) and even left hand piano from ~E downwards are below 40 hz. So there is a lot you are possibly missing out on and that just music, before we get into HT.
When you say your main "speakers sound so much better on their own" where do they sound better? Just music or HT as well?
Cheers
Gary
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 20:55:19 GMT -5
Truthfully I think they sound better on all content music and movies. My problem is that I have saved up for improvements and I am now ready to upgrade. I have about 4000 to spend, and the whole sub not sounding good thing is causing me pause on what direction to take. My smaller room would leave me to believe that I should go bookshelf and sub route, but my experience with subs is less than desirable. I don't think I could do full range mains with no sub because the mlores already need a lot of room behind them not to sound to boomy. Right now I am thinking LCR stealth 8 and surround stealth 6.
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Post by jefft51 on Feb 17, 2014 20:58:39 GMT -5
I've been setting up an even smaller room ~10x12 and have been finding it difficult to hit the sweet spot with a sub. I think room treatment would help me, but even so, I think the fine tuning gets more difficult in a small room. The crossover and slope seem to be critical. If you like the sound of your main speakers and want to just add a little added deep base, I'd suggest (not knowing your setup and what you've tried) to run your speakers full range (Large) and use the Sub's low pass filter to cross over a little bit below your main speakers drop off point and then up the crossover until it sounds the best. Then adjust the sub volume up and down a little till you find the best spot.
The next step I would do is to run REW and see what it looks like. If your sub can do eq, I'd try that. I
I'm thinking to do the least management of your main speakers as possible as you like how they sound. If you can't get there and need to do EQ on your mains, REW is your friend.
Jeff
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:12:44 GMT -5
That is one thing that I did not try. Maybe I shouldn't have been so quick to return the sub. As far as REW goes it seams a little intimidating.
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Post by Perpendicular on Feb 17, 2014 21:20:28 GMT -5
Right now I am thinking LCR stealth 8 and surround stealth 6. I'm with you. I've had Subs for years, integrated well and still hate them. I'd recommend the Stealths. I'm saving for either the Stealth 8 or Stealth 88 if they come out to go along with my current pair of Stealth 6. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 21:25:21 GMT -5
Ok so the subject of the thread was meant to grab some attention, but why do my speakers sound so much better on their own? I have a pair of mlore towers. Alone they sound fantastic. I would describe them as fast, articulate, smooth yet detailed, and able to provide satisfying bass. I recently tried and returned a svs pb 1000 subwoofer. The svs was able to hit extremely low, but I could never get it to jive with my mains, they just always sounded better alone. I tried placing the sub at listening position and crawling, and found several areas that sounded ok. I tried audyssey and that was again was ok. I tried every position available in my room including ones that I could never actually keep the sub and never could find a position that sounded good. I'm hoping that I am missing something, because I am in the process of upgrading the system. My room is smallish measuring 12x16x7.5 the speakers are on the long wall due to room layout "mainly doors" and my couch is against the back wall. I do have GIK bass traps treating the back wall, along with GIK mid traps at the main reflection points, and auralex wedgies spread throughout the room. am I totally crazy in thinking that subs just suck for a two channel media room 50/50 music movies? LFE channel xover mode... LFE or LFE+mains mode? |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:26:24 GMT -5
Ok you've spiked my interest, how do you like the 6? How would you describe the sound? I'm very seriously about to lay down some hard earned cash on the LCR stealth 8 with the stealth 6 surrounds. The only problem is I was thinking either oppo 105 for a all-in-one pre/pro solution or going oppo 103 with umc-200
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 21:30:52 GMT -5
Do a full gate and find where your mains take a dive. Set your AVR/pre xover to this point. Make sure your LFE mode is LFE+mains so the DSP sums the L/R below the xover point and sends it to the LFE channel.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:30:56 GMT -5
Ok so the subject of the thread was meant to grab some attention, but why do my speakers sound so much better on their own? I have a pair of mlore towers. Alone they sound fantastic. I would describe them as fast, articulate, smooth yet detailed, and able to provide satisfying bass. I recently tried and returned a svs pb 1000 subwoofer. The svs was able to hit extremely low, but I could never get it to jive with my mains, they just always sounded better alone. I tried placing the sub at listening position and crawling, and found several areas that sounded ok. I tried audyssey and that was again was ok. I tried every position available in my room including ones that I could never actually keep the sub and never could find a position that sounded good. I'm hoping that I am missing something, because I am in the process of upgrading the system. My room is smallish measuring 12x16x7.5 the speakers are on the long wall due to room layout "mainly doors" and my couch is against the back wall. I do have GIK bass traps treating the back wall, along with GIK mid traps at the main reflection points, and auralex wedgies spread throughout the room. am I totally crazy in thinking that subs just suck for a two channel media room 50/50 music movies? LFE channel xover mode... LFE or LFE+mains mode? I'm a little lost, but I'm pretty sure LFE channel over mode |
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Post by imcloud on Feb 17, 2014 21:31:34 GMT -5
I love subs for 2 ch music and HT, I found there are a few tricks to it...
1- Dual sealed subs, seem to work best, you normally dont need crazy output, the sb1000's work well, I use wd sw300's in one system and svs sb12 nsds in another, I have also heard uls15s with sierra towers that sounded amazing... But dual subs is almost a must, but I have a single sub with my evo2-08's on office system and it sounds great...
2-x-ing depending on your music taste and your speakers, you can be anywhere from 70-110hz {what I have found, 80 is a good number}, but make sure you integrate the sib correctly, x-over isnt a hard stop, you dont want over lap but you dont want anything missing either... takes a little doing but not impossible...
3-placement, start by getting your subs perfect, I use the craw for HT but with music I start with one sub, and get it about as good as I can, then put the other opposite it...
4- Balance, I like my bass a little hot, with dual subs I shut one sub and find the level its at with the meter, then put the other at the same level, so if my left is at 80db, I then shut that one off and tune the other to 80db at the same listening position, they are now balanced. Now I will play with the level if they seem too hot with both subs I will lower one and then match it to the second again....
Now after they are crossed, placed, and balanced, you will notice they integrate near perfectly, and if you have decent fast sealed subs with no mechanical noise you will notice bass better than any tower can provide...
I own a pair of tekton lores, full sized, and they can not hold a candle to the bass I get from my svs sb12 nsd's... I use my lroes full range and dont use subs, but its a small system in my bedroom with a small tube amp... I ave heard the m-lores, I think the low and high end can be improved, since there isnt much you can do about the high end but the low end can definitely be improved with a pair of subs, maybe some sb1000's next time...
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 21:31:40 GMT -5
Ok you've spiked my interest, how do you like the 6? How would you describe the sound? I'm very seriously about to lay down some hard earned cash on the LCR stealth 8 with the stealth 6 surrounds. The only problem is I was thinking either oppo 105 for a all-in-one pre/pro solution or going oppo 103 with umc-200 Those speakers might be great but they are sell powered monitors and are more ideal nearfield. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:31:51 GMT -5
I meant LFE
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 21:32:16 GMT -5
LFE channel xover mode... LFE or LFE+mains mode? I'm a little lost, but I'm pretty sure LFE channel over mode I have no idea what you mean by "LFE channel over mode". |
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 17, 2014 21:32:46 GMT -5
I have about 4000 to spend. As far as REW goes it seams a little intimidating. These comments lead me to make a similar suggestion to a friend of mine who lives in another country so I wasn't able to get there to help. Spend ~$3K on hardware and then ~$1K on getting it professionally set up. Cheers Gary |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 21:32:50 GMT -5
You want LFE+MAINS!!! If you don't do that with 2 channel audio that doesn't have a discrete .1 channel the frequencies the the stuff below the LFE xover from L/R won't be summed and sent to LFE channel. This is VERY IMPORTANT as well... Are your speakers set to large or small? Small sets L/R cut at LFE xover point. Large sends all frequencies to L/R below LFE xover and doesn't send any L/R summed frequencies below LFE xover to .1 LFE channel if set to LFE only. If LFE+main frequencies below LFE xover will be sent to L/R PLUS .1 LFE!!! They should be set to large no matter the size. That setting basically turns off the cut for the mains so when set to large they will sum L/R frequencies below LFE xover and send down .1 LFE only plus those frequencies will remain in L/R. Get it? duh I got that backwards... set to large LFE+mains sends frequencies below .1 LFE xover point to L/R and LFE. Just LFE sets it to JUST L/R channel stays at L/R even below xover IF speakers set to Large. If set to small frequencies below xover for 2 chan are sent ONLY to LFE when in LFE mode and your mains low end will suck. LFE+main and speakers set to large is what you want 90% of the time. Set the xover to around 65-75Hz on AVR/pre LFE+main and large speakers. I'd set DSP/pre/pro xover higher and then use the sub's actual xover to lower the point IE 75Hz on AVR with sub plate xover at 70-60Hz. Hope that helps... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:47:13 GMT -5
I had my mains set to small and tried various x over points. Audyssey started them at 40 and I went all the way to 120 and everything in between. I also adjusted the phase on the sub to as many positions as I could find
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2014 21:51:46 GMT -5
Ok you've spiked my interest, how do you like the 6? How would you describe the sound? I'm very seriously about to lay down some hard earned cash on the LCR stealth 8 with the stealth 6 surrounds. The only problem is I was thinking either oppo 105 for a all-in-one pre/pro solution or going oppo 103 with umc-200 Those speakers might be great but they are sell powered monitors and are more ideal nearfield. Emo suggest they can be used in a small theater setup, my room is smaller, I wonder though. |
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Post by solidstate on Feb 17, 2014 21:53:20 GMT -5
I had my mains set to small and tried various x over points. Audyssey started them at 40 and I went all the way to 120 and everything in between. I also adjusted the phase on the sub to as many positions as I could find I'm horrible at explaining stuff dude... LOL OK Set it to LFE+main right off the bat. Then set L/R speakers to LARGE! Then set LFE xover to 80Hz. At this point all frequencies are being sent to L/R and stuff below the LFE xover is being sent to the sub if set to LFE+main mode! With just LFE it's a CUT FILTER and with LFE+main it's a filter but not a cut if speakers set to SMALL! Frequencies below the xover point remain on L/R channel and stuff below LFE xover is passed to .1 in DUPLICATE of the mains. Now use the sub xover to lower it's xover point to just when the L/Rs roll off naturally. With those towers it will prob be around 55-70Hz. This will make a HUGE difference in your bass response! You now have to level your sub so it matches your mains at or near LFE xover point. Do this by measuring below and above the sub's plate amp xover point but keep the AVR/pre/pro xover set to 80Hz Large LFE+main mode! |
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