|
|
Post by musicfan on Jun 6, 2018 13:04:56 GMT -5
i truly believe this has been caused by streamers (people who dont buy physical media) and its forcing a limit on the decoding becasue of bandwidth concerns which is not help by the fact net neutrality went bye bye. I mistakenly assumed that if dolby gave they the ability they would use it to its fullest when in fact they use it as sparingly as they can. I didnt want gary to be correct but everything i am reading at AVS confirms the worst, and there a few over there like film mixer who i feel is authentic. filmixer is 100% authentic. so it is apparant that what Dolby says and what is actually happening are two different things.... |
|
|
|
Post by thrillcat on Jun 6, 2018 13:21:42 GMT -5
Count me in Camp B.
Remember when all of a sudden, the industry was putting a clamp on calling it "object-based audio", and began pushing the term "immersive audio"? I don't believe home Atmos has EVER really been object-based. Theatrical releases absolutely are, but the home mixes, in my opinion (based on what I've heard from those in the filmmixer field), are basically four specifically identified 'pseudo-channels' that are then pro-logic'd to fill more than four speakers. For some inexplicable reason, Disney seems to be doing something different to their encodes that requires actually engaging the upmixer of choice to fill speakers above 4. I'm guessing it's tied to either streaming or soundbar audio, or both.
|
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Jun 6, 2018 14:22:00 GMT -5
I honestly believe there is another devil at play in this scenario and that is DTS. They came to the immersive game late and have an 11 channel limited immersive codec that is not competitive with Dolby Atmos's 34 speaker home setup. DTS had an inside advantage with the studios before immersive, but now find themselves behind. I think it is their connections with the studios that is causing this limited approach which favors DTS. This is just my opinion based upon no fact so, yes it is complete surmise on my part.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 14:27:45 GMT -5
I find this all crazy because its like nobody knows anything with 100% certainty. Unfortunately I just see that hurting everybody. And I do mean everybody who works in or enjoys participating in this industry - hobby.
|
|
|
|
Post by mgbpuff on Jun 6, 2018 14:57:29 GMT -5
I find this all crazy because its like nobody knows anything with 100% certainty. Unfortunately I just see that hurting everybody. And I do mean everybody who works in or enjoys participating in this industry - hobby. It doesn't hurt the 2 channel people up to the 7.1.4 people. It really hurts anyone who has invested in a greater than 11 channel system and those that hope to in the near future. Actually that is probably not a lot of people! |
|
|
|
Post by 405x5 on Jun 6, 2018 15:16:25 GMT -5
I've noticed a growing number of you beginning to discuss the ins and outs of Dolby's new Atmos system and its proposed application(s) in the consumer space. Rather than spread the conversation out over a dozen or so different threads I thought I'd create one specifically for ALL DOLBY ATMOS talk going forward. So, what do you all think of Atmos -good idea, or just another gimmick designed to get enthusiasts to part with their hard earned money? Here I am, responding to an intro from Andrew Robinson of...… Jun 10, 2014 at 10:36am. I had to go all the way back to see the original post, for I had lost site here. In all the years of my being an audio enthusiast, (nearly 50 years) I've never seen ANYTHING EVER, that has spoiled the fun more than all of this hoop jumping in the quest for chasing a helicopter around in my living room. To re answer Andrew's original question above, I believe Atmos IS a good idea and object based audio is no gimmick, I would say......HOWEVER..... Its introduction has been a disaster to the consumer from day one, and an exciting prospect and implementation for a RELATIVELY FEW number of enthusiasts, that have jumped all over this. Too many options, too many amplifiers, too much non standardization, and a host of other complications that I believe will deep six this effort in the coming years. Now news that Dolby licensing issues may put average user Atmos sound bars in jeopardy! (what else). not to mention the processer dilemma. Nothing could drive the future of all this better than films with powerful ACTING, rather than overemphasis on technological wonders, were you to ask me. Too much effort to blow your socks off is getting old indeed. Bill |
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Jun 6, 2018 15:16:49 GMT -5
I find this all crazy because its like nobody knows anything with 100% certainty. Unfortunately I just see that hurting everybody. And I do mean everybody who works in or enjoys participating in this industry - hobby. It doesn't hurt the 2 channel people up to the 7.1.4 people. It really hurts anyone who has invested in a greater than 11 channel system and those that hope to in the near future. Actually that is probably not a lot of people! I would love to see statistics on Atmos installs versus 5.1/7.1 installs. I would think maybe 5-10% of all HT installs are Atmos proper installs (in ceiling speakers, not sound bars/reflecting speakers), and that number may be high. Of that 5-10% how many actually have greater 7.X.4, maybe 5% of those? So ultimately you are looking at something that maybe affects .5% of all HT owners (5 out of every thousand) depending on how those numbers actually come out. Moving forward it does seem like it could be a bummer in the short term for units like the RMC-1 (9.X.6) since you will get a unit that you can't fully utilize due to Dolby limitations. Dan did allude to some changing/new surround standards in the near future and that may open up the extra channels. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 15:23:59 GMT -5
I find this all crazy because its like nobody knows anything with 100% certainty. Unfortunately I just see that hurting everybody. And I do mean everybody who works in or enjoys participating in this industry - hobby. It doesn't hurt the 2 channel people up to the 7.1.4 people. It really hurts anyone who has invested in a greater than 11 channel system and those that hope to in the near future. Actually that is probably not a lot of people! What I meant by hurting everyone is because of all the confusion. And by everyone I mean all the varieties of us consumers, as well as manufacturers of equipment, discs, and movies in general. Confusion isn't good for anyone. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 15:30:11 GMT -5
I've noticed a growing number of you beginning to discuss the ins and outs of Dolby's new Atmos system and its proposed application(s) in the consumer space. Rather than spread the conversation out over a dozen or so different threads I thought I'd create one specifically for ALL DOLBY ATMOS talk going forward. So, what do you all think of Atmos -good idea, or just another gimmick designed to get enthusiasts to part with their hard earned money? Here I am, responding to an intro from Andrew Robinson of...… Jun 10, 2014 at 10:36am. I had to go all the way back to see the original post, for I had lost site here. In all the years of my being an audio enthusiast, (nearly 50 years) I've never seen ANYTHING EVER, that has spoiled the fun more than all of this hoop jumping in the quest for chasing a helicopter around in my living room. To re answer Andrew's original question above, I believe Atmos IS a good idea and object based audio is no gimmick, I would say......HOWEVER..... Its introduction has been a disaster to the consumer from day one, and an exciting prospect and implementation for a RELATIVELY FEW number of enthusiasts, that have jumped all over this. Too many options, too many amplifiers, too much non standardization, and a host of other complications that I believe will deep six this effort in the coming years. Now news that Dolby licensing issues may put average user Atmos sound bars in jeopardy! (what else). not to mention the processer dilemma. Nothing could drive the future of all this better than films with powerful ACTING, rather than overemphasis on technological wonders, were you to ask me. Too much effort to blow your socks off is getting old indeed. Bill Exactly the gist I was saying, CONFUSION. Its hurts everyone. The only real upside for me is that going 4 height channels makes my Marantz 8802a good for a much longer time. I already bought six ceiling speakers, so the question is, do I go ahead and install all 6 just in case this entire scenario reverses itself, or do I use the extra 2 somewhere else in the house? Unfortunately I'll have more time than Id like to decide. No time in my life right now to do the install.😭😡 |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 15:33:34 GMT -5
Moving forward it does seem like it could be a bummer in the short term for units like the RMC-1 (9.X.6) since you will get a unit that you can't fully utilize due to Dolby limitations. Dan did allude to some changing/new surround standards in the near future and that may open up the extra channels. It most certainly could be a big bummer. Again, for everyone. Us, and Emotiva. If this back turn is truly real, its a big bummer all around. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 15:38:06 GMT -5
If it is true and for 100% certain, it makes jumping to an Anthem AVM60 all that more appealing. Which makes the long
open ended delay in the XMC-1 upgrade sting a bit.
|
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Jun 6, 2018 16:10:32 GMT -5
Based on actual experience, not rumour or supposition, I called this (movie studios pinning to,7.1.4) out a few weeks ago and got blasted, told I was out of touch etc. I knew what I heard, with my own ears, but I still seamed to be on my own in what Bonz named "camp B". Now I don't feel quite so alone, there's a few more joining me around the camp fire. Not wishing to claim any superiority or unique knowledge, just glad that what I heard was a true representation of what was happening, that I wasn't imagining it.
FWIW I've made a call on what I'm doing, there's an XMC-1 on its way to Emotiva for the 4K board upgrade. Then I'm going to enjoy it while the Atmos mess settles down and then with full knowledge I can decide the next step.
Cheers
Gary
|
|
klinemj
Emo VIPs 
Official Emofest Scribe
Posts: 15,095
|
Post by klinemj on Jun 6, 2018 16:21:49 GMT -5
Suddenly the prospect of upgrading my XMC-1 to Atmos, adding 4 ceiling speakers and 4 channels of amplification is sounding good.
Mark
|
|
|
|
Post by davidl81 on Jun 6, 2018 16:27:00 GMT -5
Suddenly the prospect of upgrading my XMC-1 to Atmos, adding 4 ceiling speakers and 4 channels of amplification is sounding good. Mark It will make choosing between the RMC-1 and XMC-1 G3 (Or whatever Emo decides to call it) a tougher call. Looks like the extra channels will not be used much for the time being, and I think the cost delta is like $1500 (rumored). As silly as it sounds I still may go with the RMC-1 (I am lucky enough to have a 40% off card which lowers the delta to $900) mostly because the RMC-1 is the same height as my XPA amps and they will look sweet all in a line in my media rack. |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 16:31:13 GMT -5
I honestly believe there is another devil at play in this scenario and that is DTS. They came to the immersive game late and have an 11 channel limited immersive codec that is not competitive with Dolby Atmos's 34 speaker home setup. DTS had an inside advantage with the studios before immersive, but now find themselves behind. I think it is their connections with the studios that is causing this limited approach which favors DTS. This is just my opinion based upon no fact so, yes it is complete surmise on my part. Sticking with evil plots and scenarios, would it surprise anyone if Disney isn't doing this to sell discs twice. For now we get the regular 4k 7.1.4 disc, and then 2 years from now they put out the Atmos FULL deluxe edition. It wouldnt surprise me in the slightest. |
|
KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,273
|
Post by KeithL on Jun 6, 2018 16:40:42 GMT -5
We have known about this for some time....
I don't particularly expect it to cause any additional delays (although, overall, it might result in another software update here or there).....
Personally, I'm not a big fan of upmixing, and being limited to use the "matching" upmixer rather than "mix-and-match" doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
Obviously, their goal is to "shut out" their competitors.....
|
|
KeithL
Administrator
Posts: 10,273
|
Post by KeithL on Jun 6, 2018 17:09:49 GMT -5
I believe the problem here is that a lot of people still seem to be confused about the difference between "Atmos objects" and "height channels". (And, to be quite honest, according to the way Dolby has consistently explained what the three numbers in the designation mean, those discs are in fact labelled wrong.)
According to Dolby's information, the first number describes your "regular channels", the second digit describes your subwoofers, and the third digit describes HOW MANY HEIGHT CHANNELS/SPEAKERS YOU HAVE. Note that THE NUMBER OF ATMOST OBJECTS IN THE MIX IS IN NO WAY RELATED TO THE NUMBER OF HEIGHT CHANNELS YOU HAVE. You could have fifty objects zooming around between two height speakers; and you could have two objects zooming around between fifty speakers; they are NOT INTRINSICALLY RELATED.
From the latest information I have (which is usually quite good), many recent discs are being encoded with A LIMITED NUMBER OF ATMOS OBJECTS. This would reduce the processing requirements, which might make life easier for some hardware. (I'm inclined to think of it as "Atmos lite".)
This means that, at any given time, only four simultaneous Atmos objects may be "in play". So, you CANNOT have twenty drones, each flying in a different pattern, flying around over your head at the same time.... you can only have four.
HOWEVER, each of those objects may still be mapped anywhere on or between any of the speakers you have, including six height channels, if you have that many.
It has been confirmed at CEDIA that the studio mixes of Atmos will be 7.1.4. So for those of you that have 7.1 set ups, all you'll need are 4 more speakers from the ceiling and you're good! |
|
|
|
Post by rbk123 on Jun 6, 2018 17:25:44 GMT -5
I believe the problem here is that a lot of people still seem to be confused about the difference between "Atmos objects" and "height channels". (And, to be quite honest, according to the way Dolby has consistently explained what the three numbers in the designation mean, those discs are in fact labelled wrong.) According to Dolby's information, the first number describes your "regular channels", the second digit describes your subwoofers, and the third digit describes HOW MANY HEIGHT CHANNELS/SPEAKERS YOU HAVE. Note that THE NUMBER OF ATMOST OBJECTS IN THE MIX IS IN NO WAY RELATED TO THE NUMBER OF HEIGHT CHANNELS YOU HAVE. You could have fifty objects zooming around between two height speakers; and you could have two objects zooming around between fifty speakers; they are NOT INTRINSICALLY RELATED. So if what Keith is saying is true, then an Atmos disc labeled 7.1.4 is meaningless. The prior labeling had meaning since it referred to the Dolby or DTS encoding being 5.1 or 7.1. If 7.1.4 has nothing to do with encoding, then it is meaningless and shouldn't be labeled at all. If true, I would think there has to be some kind of labeling standard that would equate to how they encoded the Atmos mix? |
|
|
|
Post by Bonzo on Jun 6, 2018 17:33:24 GMT -5
We still seem to have a distinct Camp A and Camp B. Anyone who has not please go back a few posts and read what the differences are. KeithL, what some people are basically saying is that even people with Trinnov processors, who have 6+ speakers on the ceiling, are only getting sound from 4 speakers, period. As if there is a new standard with .4 limitations. Edit: I think the recognized standard was .10 if I recall. Now people are saying that has shrunk to .4. |
|
|
|
Post by Gary Cook on Jun 6, 2018 18:31:53 GMT -5
I believe the problem here is that a lot of people still seem to be confused about the difference between "Atmos objects" and "height channels". (And, to be quite honest, according to the way Dolby has consistently explained what the three numbers in the designation mean, those discs are in fact labelled wrong.) According to Dolby's information, the first number describes your "regular channels", the second digit describes your subwoofers, and the third digit describes HOW MANY HEIGHT CHANNELS/SPEAKERS YOU HAVE. Note that THE NUMBER OF ATMOST OBJECTS IN THE MIX IS IN NO WAY RELATED TO THE NUMBER OF HEIGHT CHANNELS YOU HAVE. You could have fifty objects zooming around between two height speakers; and you could have two objects zooming around between fifty speakers; they are NOT INTRINSICALLY RELATED. From the latest information I have (which is usually quite good), many recent discs are being encoded with A LIMITED NUMBER OF ATMOS OBJECTS. This would reduce the processing requirements, which might make life easier for some hardware. (I'm inclined to think of it as "Atmos lite".)
This means that, at any given time, only four simultaneous Atmos objects may be "in play". So, you CANNOT have twenty drones, each flying in a different pattern, flying around over your head at the same time.... you can only have four.
HOWEVER, each of those objects may still be mapped anywhere on or between any of the speakers you have, including six height channels, if you have that many.
Hi Keith, generally we agree on almost everything but in this case not so much. Around 2 years ago (very quietly it seems) Dolby released Atmos software that facilitates the pinning of objects to channels. I don't know if this was the intention, but the effect has been a lot of (most) movies being released since with the Atmos objects pinned to 7.1.4. Not only is this stated on the case but many people, including me, have confirmed this to actually be the case. Without extrapolation/matrixing there is no output for the 2 (out of 6) ceiling speakers and no output from the front wides (2 of the 9). I have confirmed this as best I can with an acquaintance of mine who works as a sound engineer/mixer, plus by the well respected FilmMixer on AVS. DTS-X to my knowledge has always been 7.1.4 and the Dolby software simply aligns Atmos with DTS-X, which I believe was the intent by Dolby and/or the request by the movie studios. Yep. I'm still in Camp B  Cheers Gary |
|
