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Post by Priapulus on Jul 22, 2014 17:44:28 GMT -5
My commercial Liebert UPS died recently. It was 15 amps AC out, and could run all day on four, 12 volt, deep cycle car batteries (48 vdc).
In the computer store I saw a 1500 VA Chinese UPS that would last 1/2 hour (according to the box). So I bought it, hooked it up to my loads (~1200 va) and charged it. Then I pulled its plug, to simulate a power failure; after about 5 minutes, it's battery was dead and the lights went out; apparently the 1/2 hour life is under NO LOAD... This really wasn't surprising, as it had a 7.5 ah battery.
No problem, I just connected it up to a couple of car batteries. Tested again. This time it lasted 15 minutes before it expired, but a electrical burnt smell. Apparently the inverter (output) circuit is rated for 1500va for only 5 minutes!
I did read the box carefully before I bought it; the price it was too good to be true, but also too good not to at least give it a try. Moral of the story, read the box, use common sense, stick to name brands that have motivation to be honest, don't buy cheap crap.
Sincerely
/b
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Post by richardrc on Jul 22, 2014 21:27:10 GMT -5
The link I provided will give you a good understanding of what you should be looking for ie spike and suppression from externally generated events.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 16, 2015 13:01:08 GMT -5
Well, we're about to get a whole-house standby generator installed, and while doing so, I'd like to have the electrical contractor install some surge suppression for the whole house as well. They're recommending the GEN-160 SER: www.pspproducts.net/Gen160CutSheet.pdfWhat worries me about the thing is that it is MOV-based suppression. Once the device triggers once, it's disabled until its metal-oxide varistor is replaced. Does anyone make anything more durable? Boom |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 16, 2015 14:58:52 GMT -5
My commercial Liebert UPS died recently. It was 15 amps AC out, and could run all day on four, 12 volt, deep cycle car batteries (48 vdc). In the computer store I saw a 1500 VA Chinese UPS that would last 1/2 hour (according to the box). So I bought it, hooked it up to my loads (~1200 va) and charged it. Then I pulled its plug, to simulate a power failure; after about 5 minutes, it's battery was dead and the lights went out; apparently the 1/2 hour life is under NO LOAD... This really wasn't surprising, as it had a 7.5 ah battery. No problem, I just connected it up to a couple of car batteries. Tested again. This time it lasted 15 minutes before it expired, but a electrical burnt smell. Apparently the inverter (output) circuit is rated for 1500va for only 5 minutes! I did read the box carefully before I bought it; the price it was too good to be true, but also too good not to at least give it a try. Moral of the story, read the box, use common sense, stick to name brands that have motivation to be honest, don't buy cheap crap. Sincerely /b That's too bad priapulus. Where I'm from, Chinese products and by that I mean REAL chinese products were plentiful. I once bought this amazing speaker system. It was rated as 2400 watts PMPO!!!  Of course it was complete junk but back then there were no RMS figures out there. So you had to compare a $6 "600 watts PMPO" with a $10 "$2400 watts PMPO" and just know of course that the $10 product was 1800 watts better  I still loved those speakers |
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KeithL
Administrator 
Posts: 10,274
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Post by KeithL on Jul 16, 2015 15:16:45 GMT -5
Virtually all reasonably priced surge suppressors are what we call "sacrificial" - which means that they eventually self destruct. A surge suppressor is either going to try to short the entire surge to ground (outside your breaker panel), or short enough of it to ground inside your breaker panel to pop your main breaker (once the breaker blows, the open breaker will prevent any further current from entering). In either case, the MOVs in the surge suppressor take rather a beating, and will eventually "wear out" (some suppressors can survive several surges; others are designed to self destruct as part of the protection process). You're better off with a unit that "self destructs" and has to be replaced than with one that may eventually simply stop protecting you if the MOVs inside wear out - therefore, having a unit that "dies dead" and has to be replaced is actually a good feature.
There are "big" surge suppressors that don't use MOVs, and some of them can survive multiple surges, while others have "replaceable cartridges" containing the parts that fail. However, most of these types of solutions are large and quite expensive. Unless you live somewhere where there are lots of lightning strikes, it seems to make more sense to spend a reasonable amount of money on a solution that will get the job done, and simply replace it if and when it fails (if you start buying them by the carton, then it's time to consider a more extreme solution).
If you're really nervous, I would consider combining one of these with individual surge protected power strips. Using both will increase the level of protection you're getting, and provide a bit more protection for your equipment even if the central one fails, and many of the "better" surge protected power strips come with a guarantee to replace equipment that is damaged while protected by them. (Always read the fine print there as far as making sure your circuitry itself is up to par and properly grounded or you may not be covered.)
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Post by mshump on Jul 16, 2015 19:56:12 GMT -5
Well, we're about to get a whole-house standby generator installed, and while doing so, I'd like to have the electrical contractor install some surge suppression for the whole house as well. They're recommending the GEN-160 SER: www.pspproducts.net/Gen160CutSheet.pdfWhat worries me about the thing is that it is MOV-based suppression. Once the device triggers once, it's disabled until its metal-oxide varistor is replaced. Does anyone make anything more durable? Boom Boom, If the MOV blows do you just lose suppression or does it shut down the ATS and your electric service. |
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Post by bradford on Jul 17, 2015 5:19:11 GMT -5
Well, we're about to get a whole-house standby generator installed, and while doing so, I'd like to have the electrical contractor install some surge suppression for the whole house as well. They're recommending the GEN-160 SER: www.pspproducts.net/Gen160CutSheet.pdfWhat worries me about the thing is that it is MOV-based suppression. Once the device triggers once, it's disabled until its metal-oxide varistor is replaced. Does anyone make anything more durable? Boom I've put comercial whole house surge surpression in my last two homes. My prior home we used APC, the current one we have these sycomsurge.com/index.php?p=catalog&mode=catalog&parent=8&CatalogSetSortBy=price&CatalogSetView=Thumb1You want one on each panel preferably hooked to a delta ground. |
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Post by Priapulus on Jul 17, 2015 7:23:11 GMT -5
Well, we're about to get a whole-house standby generator installed, and while doing so, I'd like to have the electrical contractor install some surge suppression for the whole house as well. They're recommending the GEN-160 SER: www.pspproducts.net/Gen160CutSheet.pdfWhat worries me about the thing is that it is MOV-based suppression. Once the device triggers once, it's disabled until its metal-oxide varistor is replaced. Does anyone make anything more durable? Boom
MOVs will take multiple minor hits (that your receive all the time, which can damage your gear) without harm to themselves. A major hit will cause it to self-destruct; but by sacrificing itself, it has saved all your other stuff. I've had my "whole-house" protection for four years now, and it has yet to be "self-destructed". You have to consider it like replacing a blown fuse; it's a good thing.
If it does fail and I have to replace it, I will be pleased. Because it's sacrifice saved my gear. It's like the airbag in your car; it destroys itself saving your life and surely you don't regret that.
Sincerely /b
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Post by goodfellas27 on Jul 17, 2015 8:45:44 GMT -5
Also, don't forget coax cable lightning Surge Protector. The power lines are not the only things coming from the ground touching your gear. I capped the TII 212 after a lighting took out my cable box, HDMI ports on my TV. Regardless them being connected to the power conditioner. It came via the coax cable.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 17, 2015 15:14:56 GMT -5
Good points, all, amigos! Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure if the device recommended by the generator installation people trips the house when the MOV dies, but I'm certain I remembering the installer saying that it DOES protect and trip the generator. I'll find out. At this point, I'm leaning toward going with the device that was suggested. I can always add additional ballast transformers or suppressors for expensive equipment in the house.
Boom
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Post by westom on Jul 17, 2015 15:41:34 GMT -5
What worries me about the thing is that it is MOV-based suppression. Once the device triggers once, it's disabled until its metal-oxide varistor is replaced. Your 'whole house' protector must be sized to suffer multiple direct lightning strikes. And remain functional. Those near zero protectors that sell at massive profit margins 1) do not claim to protect from the other and destructive surges, 2) fail quickly to promote more sales, and 3) do not claim to protect from destructive surges. And finally, those near zero protectors need a properly earthed 'whole house' protector to be protected; to not create a house fire. The 'whole house' protector is not protection. It is only your best solution when it connects low impedance (ie 'less than 10 feet') to what actually does all protection - single point earth ground. A protector that 'sacrifices itself' is better called a scam. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 17, 2015 16:11:51 GMT -5
A protector that 'sacrifices itself' is better called a scam. Well, the preponderance of opinion seems to disagree. Provided that the unit does disconnect & shorts the excess voltage to ground, then I can just replace the MOVs and be done. Any device other than a MOV-based one may not be fast enough to protect anything, from what I've read. And unlike the "bad old days," the current MOVs are multi-use. The device offered purports to protect both legs and the ground of the house. As to surges on the cable line, I wanted a new TV anyway! LOL Boom |
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Post by Bonzo on Jul 17, 2015 17:57:42 GMT -5
As to surges on the cable line, I wanted a new TV anyway! This will be the case for folks with whole home DirecTV regardless. The whole home system does not work if you put a surge protector in-between. I wish I had considered whole home protection last year when I had a new main breaker box installed. Would have been the time to do it. My house has (2) 200 amp breakers so it would cost me more to do also. Why are you doing this now Boom? I thought you had plans to move. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 18, 2015 2:54:57 GMT -5
We currently own a 17Kw portable generator, but it weighs a ton. If the yard is wet, the thing's wheels sink into the ground & I can no longer push / pull it to where it needs to go. Further, if I'm not home at the time that it's needed, then my wife is without power until I return.
Whether or not we'll go with the standby one or not remains to be seen. I just got the quote (over $10K plus taxes) and we do, indeed, plan on moving. The cheaper option may be to have a concrete walkway or pad poured so that I can get the portable to where it needs to go (or leave it in place).
The portable is electric-start, and even with the manual transfer switch, my wife probably could get it switched by herself. A small shed to keep the rain off might be sufficient to leave the "portable" in place so no moving at all would be required. I have a natural gas conversion kit for the portable as well, and a gas line has already been run to the location...
The whole-house surge suppressor (installed) was quoted at $450.
Boom
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Post by garbulky on Jul 18, 2015 3:34:05 GMT -5
Any reason for the generator? Or just worried about the 'canes?
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Post by Priapulus on Jul 18, 2015 8:54:13 GMT -5
Also, don't forget coax cable lightning Surge Protector. The power lines are not the only things coming from the ground touching your gear. I capped the TII 212 after a lighting took out my cable box, HDMI ports on my TV. Regardless them being connected to the power conditioner. It came via the coax cable. I have a fiend (sic) who is a radio amateur with a huge tower, half a dozen radios and several computers systemed together. All his tower and equipment was properly grounded and surge protected (which is very unusual for a ham; most hams don't properly ground, and have silly ideas about how it do it).
His tower took a direct hit, but none of his equipment had any damage - with one exception: One of the tower antennas was connected to a radio, which connected to a computer, which connected to a modem, which connected to a phoneline, which was grounded at the far side of the house. So he had two grounds; the station ground, and the phone ground at the opposite side of the house. The lightning took the path thru the tower/radio/computer/modem/phoneline/to the phone ground, destroying all enroute.
All he needed was a $20 phone surge protector on phoneline, in his shack, connected to the station ground and he would have been safe. That is why all good computer surge protectors have plugs for the phone line/computer modem.
For whole house protection to work, everything must be grounded at the same point. That means your satellite dish, cable, phone are all connected to the same ground point as the whole house protection. Often all these cables enter the house at the service entrance, so that is not a problem. That fact that so many people have hum noise from their CATV cable, suggests poor/no CATV grounding.
There is another solution to this problem. Install the whole house protection (or not). Install a surge protected powerbar at your home theater and plug all your gear into it. Connect the CATV coax to the CATV connectors on the powerbar, so your single ground point is the powerbar.
Sincerely /b
I like redundancy, so have whole house protection at the service panel, and individual surge protectors on my HT and computers.
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Post by Porscheguy on Jul 18, 2015 9:52:07 GMT -5
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Post by westom on Jul 18, 2015 10:14:38 GMT -5
Any device other than a MOV-based one may not be fast enough to protect anything, from what I've read. A preponderance says that is true because the majority only believe the first thing they are told. Then attack the messenger who later comes with facts. You should ignore any recommendation not tempered by facts with numbers. Then what is left, as a preponderance, is reality. MOVs (and all other protector technologies) are fast enough. But response time is not determined by a protector. Response time is defined by something completely different that defines protection. Some protection systems do not even have protectors. But every protection system (no exceptions) always has single point earth ground. Useful recommendations discuss THE most critical component in every protection system - what harmlessly dissipates hundreds of thousands of joules (critical numbers) - single point earth ground. As a minority only discuss. To be effective, a connection to earth must be low impedance (ie 'less than ten feet', not up over the foundation (sharp bends) and down to earth, no metallic conduit, etc). That determines response time and other critically important numbers. Destructive surges are microsecond events (typically 8/20 microseconds). Protectors (including MOVs) respond in nanoseconds. Why did they forget to mention these numbers? Protection is always about where hundreds of thousands of joules are harmlessly absorbed. Any recommendation that does not say that is probably from an overwhelming majority so easily manipulated by advertising - also called brainwashing. Overwhelming majority also once knew smoking increases health. And that Saddam had WMDs. In every case, the majority are easily identified; they did not always demand perspective - the numbers. Where do hundreds of thousands of joules dissipate? Anyone who does not answer that question was probably educated by hearsay. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 18, 2015 12:06:55 GMT -5
Any reason for the generator? Or just worried about the 'canes? The last big thunderstorm that came through left us without power for two days. Why? The "older" section of town that I'm in has above-ground power lines and LOTS of old trees. The last big hurricane that came through (Gustav in 2008) left us without power for more than three weeks. I bought the portable generator immediately after Gustav, and it's been sufficient except for the fact that I can no longer safely move it and that the yard now seems to be "stickier" when trying to roll heavy things (like the generator). Having discussed it with my smarter half, we've decided to pour a small pad in the back yard with about a $500-750 open shed over it. The (currently portable) generator will be shorn of wheels, and mounted on blocks in the shed. To meet code, I'll hire an electrician to run underground wiring from the generator to the manual transfer switch. If we need power, we'll walk into the back yard, start the generator with its electrical starter, and then swap inputs at the transfer switch. Mrs. Boom can do this herself, even if I'm out of town. I'll also have a surge suppressor installed when the wiring is done. Not sure what all this will all cost, but I'm hoping <$5K. Boomzilla And, yes, I probably do need to do some more research before buying a surge suppressor. |
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Post by leonski on Mar 5, 2016 3:47:32 GMT -5
Westom HAS a point. Get an electrician out there and Check The Ground of your casa with a MEGGER.
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