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Post by solidstate on Jul 13, 2014 21:11:27 GMT -5
Why does Surround Left have so much more THD and why does surround right how so much more phase shift?
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Jul 14, 2014 13:28:32 GMT -5
Everyone, Also, look for the manual on Monday. Have a great weekend everyone! View Attachment Are we still getting the manual today? I would love to look through it while I wait for my email. |
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Post by jimbailey on Jul 14, 2014 14:11:03 GMT -5
+1 I'm a manual kind of guy...
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HDSapper
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Post by HDSapper on Jul 14, 2014 14:16:02 GMT -5
I can't say that I am. I would much rather tinker with it until I figure it out. Manuals are usually the last resort. BUT... since I haven't gotten my email yet, I'll make an exception and gladly check out the manual.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 14:37:52 GMT -5
I also can't help but notice this.
Front Left -86.415 dBV
Front Right +0.652 dBV
And also this.
Front Left ----% 0.000114 %
Front Right ----% 0.000086 %
Great measurements overall but it's seem analog section layout has created some discrepancy between channels with the left main and surround left drifting a little.
I hope you guys ditch the balance analog in section and focus entirely on the analog out I/V section layout for the RMC-1 so these channels are all a lot closer to each other in performance.
Ditch all analog input sections on the RMC-1 please!
Use multiple DSD1793 and ditch the PCM4202 and all analog input sections entirely please!
The layout space is there for multi DSD1792/3 if you ditch the analog sections entirely and you won't see those phase and distortion discrepancies between channels!
I bet if you look at the layout you can see why right is better than left and why left surround has that phase shift.
All in all though these are amazing measurements that best any AVR or proc at this price point with an SNR about 110 across the board but I know you guys can do better by ditching the analog input sections and ADC. With the gain in PCB space you can layout the analog out section even better!
BTW did you guys hear about ditching the analog input section ENTIRELY on the RMC-1 possibly?
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Jul 14, 2014 14:57:18 GMT -5
+1 on ditching analog, but I doubt that happens. Too many people would scream about that to make it a commercially viable product, no matter the advantages to "more perfect" measurements (and audible sound?).
But I am with you... "I" don't need analog.
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 15:17:21 GMT -5
+1 on ditching analog, but I doubt that happens. Too many people would scream about that to make it a commercially viable product, no matter the advantages to "more perfect" measurements (and audible sound?). But I am with you... "I" don't need analog. Yeah you're right. Consumer ignorance will lead them to keep the bloody analog input section.  PS I seriously don't get why it has 7.1 analog in as these inputs/PCB space is ABSOLUTELY AND ENTIRELY USELESS! |
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 15:24:54 GMT -5
+1 on ditching analog, but I doubt that happens. Too many people would scream about that to make it a commercially viable product, no matter the advantages to "more perfect" measurements (and audible sound?). But I am with you... "I" don't need analog. BTW nice home theater!  |
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Post by kellys on Jul 14, 2014 16:15:15 GMT -5
I also can't help but notice this. Front Left -86.415 dBV Front Right +0.652 dBV And also this. Front Left ----% 0.000114 % Front Right ----% 0.000086 % ... Ditch all analog input sections on the RMC-1 please! If you look carefully the -86 dBV and 0 dBV reading is the analog crosstalk performance. This is a good reading. Also, the difference in distortion is not an issue, the one channel is only very slightly higher than the other and both measure superbly. It looks like Emo did an awesome job on this and I can't wait to hear one (too bad I spent my money on XPA-1s while waiting). I for one vote to keep the analog audio inputs on all future processors. It would be crazy to not have a set of analog inputs on a piece of audio gear. |
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 18:56:37 GMT -5
I also can't help but notice this. Front Left -86.415 dBV Front Right +0.652 dBV And also this. Front Left ----% 0.000114 % Front Right ----% 0.000086 % ... Ditch all analog input sections on the RMC-1 please! If you look carefully the -86 dBV and 0 dBV reading is the analog crosstalk performance. This is a good reading. Also, the difference in distortion is not an issue, the one channel is only very slightly higher than the other and both measure superbly. It looks like Emo did an awesome job on this and I can't wait to hear one (too bad I spent my money on XPA-1s while waiting). I for one vote to keep the analog audio inputs on all future processors. It would be crazy to not have a set of analog inputs on a piece of audio gear. Yes they are all fantastic readings but I'm certain they could be better if the analog input section was ditched. I think they might have to do this in the RMC-1 if they go full balanced on all outputs. I'm curious what analog transport other than a turntable or external DAC would anyone use? I highly doubt the useless 7.1 input will ever be used by anyone. OK perhaps keep the balanced input for external 2 chan DAC but most people that would go that far would use a HT bypass dedicated 2 channel preamp anyway right!?! I honestly also believe those two channel critical users wouldn't be using this XMC-1 in a 2 channel rig anyway. People like that, who have a large home theater and also 2 chan room, generally have a lot of money to begin with and would never consider the XMC-1 for two channel duty anyway. I'm just thinking the output section looks like part of it's PCB would be for the analog balanced inputs. I'd rather see that PCB space used for a really kick ass analog output section. It's my understanding also that XMC-1 is a USB DAC... From the photos I see the balanced output section PCB seems to only have the balanced input on it so perhaps I'm off here... I'm curious though how they intend to rework these PCBs for the RMC-1. Oh wait I can see the singled ended input PCB has a ribbon that runs to the balanced output PCB. The analog output PCB does have analog input buses on it as I suspected and perhaps even the converters. That means the digital DSP section PCB's huge ribbon to the analog output section PCB also is carrying analog input on that huge ribbon unless the ADC is on the output PCB and this seems most likely. I would not have designed it this way because to do what I'm suggesting on a possible variant could possibly mean reworking the DSP section PCB unfortunately. IMHO they should be two separate ribbons and the analog input section shouldn't go through the balanced analog output section like it does. I bet this was to accommodate multiple PCM4202 ADCs required for the 7.1 input and balanced input. I bet the PCM4202 ADCa are on the analog output section PCB! I just don't see the point in any analog sections and in particular the 7.1 inputs in this day and age. Just my opinion I guess. |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 14, 2014 19:24:51 GMT -5
Looks great! To bad I have no idea what most of it means : ( I can explain. It means it kicks pretty much everyone's @$$.  No seriously, it does. Lonnie |
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 19:26:32 GMT -5
Looks great! To bad I have no idea what most of it means : ( I can explain. It means it kicks pretty much everyone's @$$. No seriously, it does. Lonnie YUP! Over 110 across the board and my rants about phase and crosstalk is laughable when you compare your team's handywork to what's out there! KUDOS XMC-1 TEAM! I guess no DSP section rework... just pull the ribbon pins needed for the 7.1 input I2S if the ADCs are on the analog output section as I suppose... Hey are the analog ADCs on the analog output board then I2S through that ribbon to the DSP section or are the ADCs on the DSP section for analog input? My query here revolves around my curiosity regarding the rework you guys intend to do for the RMC-1 piece. Lets face it a lot of the dev on this project is entirely software/DSP engine and these PCB mods/revisions will not require nearly the R&D/dev time. I can only imagine how well the RMC-1 variant is going to be and how many stencils for other outfits you guys are gunna crank out of Tennessee! BTW did you think this day would ever come Lonny? hahaha nudge nudge... It's been one hell of a road for you guys eh! |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 14, 2014 19:28:12 GMT -5
wow... According to this, Balanced to Balanced 2ch THD and SNR are better than XSP-1 !!?? Exactly. We have been saying all along that the plan was to make it so it was all you needed. With performance specs like this, you don't need a separate pre-amp. I hope this helps. Lonnie |
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 19:34:22 GMT -5
wow... According to this, Balanced to Balanced 2ch THD and SNR are better than XSP-1 !!?? Exactly. We have been saying all along that the plan was to make it so it was all you needed. With performance specs like this, you don't need a separate pre-amp. I hope this helps. Lonnie Can this balanced section be routed through the DSP engine or is it simply a buffer/attenuator to the mains output? I assume that measurement doesn't include a ADC DAC conversion. |
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Post by solidstate on Jul 14, 2014 19:43:43 GMT -5
wow... According to this, Balanced to Balanced 2ch THD and SNR are better than XSP-1 !!?? Exactly. We have been saying all along that the plan was to make it so it was all you needed. With performance specs like this, you don't need a separate pre-amp. I hope this helps. Lonnie I know this outta left field and public but... www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/248996-first-one-mosfet-amplifier-module.htmlYou guys should get a hold of that dude and commercialize the design! Don't let the simplicity and feedback bias you! (no pun intended) Lazy Cat is the cat you should recruit! At least bring in a couple modules with the Hypex SMPS (GOTTA GO SMPS BRO!) for in-house testing. I know some others have been courting LC in this regard recently...I hear those units are top notch from very respectable designers in the industry who have decent ears I trust. I'm not sure how you stand in the feedback debate but if you're on the wrong side of the fence (GF and SMPS snobbery) IMHO and wish to be converted check those modules out! I have a feeling the performance will impress you bigtime! |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 14, 2014 20:08:07 GMT -5
Exactly. We have been saying all along that the plan was to make it so it was all you needed. With performance specs like this, you don't need a separate pre-amp. I hope this helps. Lonnie I know this outta left field and public but... www.diyaudio.com/forums/vendors-bazaar/248996-first-one-mosfet-amplifier-module.htmlYou guys should get a hold of that dude and commercialize the design! Don't let the simplicity and feedback bias you! (no pun intended) Lazy Cat is the cat you should recruit! At least bring in a couple modules with the Hypex SMPS (GOTTA GO SMPS BRO!) for in-house testing. I know some others have been courting LC in this regard recently...I hear those units are top notch from very respectable designers in the industry who have decent ears I trust. I'm not sure how you stand in the feedback debate but if you're on the wrong side of the fence (GF and SMPS snobbery) IMHO and wish to be converted check those modules out! I have a feeling the performance will impress you bigtime! From a quick glance they look interesting. I will look into them a little deeper. I also agree that SMPS is the way of the future. Lonnie |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 14, 2014 20:09:05 GMT -5
Exactly. We have been saying all along that the plan was to make it so it was all you needed. With performance specs like this, you don't need a separate pre-amp. I hope this helps. Lonnie Can this balanced section be routed through the DSP engine or is it simply a buffer/attenuator to the mains output? I assume that measurement doesn't include a ADC DAC conversion. Yes, it can be routed through the DSP. Lonnie |
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Lonnie
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 14, 2014 20:13:22 GMT -5
I can explain. It means it kicks pretty much everyone's @$$. No seriously, it does. Lonnie YUP! Over 110 across the board and my rants about phase and crosstalk is laughable when you compare your team's handywork to what's out there! KUDOS XMC-1 TEAM! I guess no DSP section rework... just pull the ribbon pins needed for the 7.1 input I2S if the ADCs are on the analog output section as I suppose... Hey are the analog ADCs on the analog output board then I2S through that ribbon to the DSP section or are the ADCs on the DSP section for analog input? My query here revolves around my curiosity regarding the rework you guys intend to do for the RMC-1 piece. Lets face it a lot of the dev on this project is entirely software/DSP engine and these PCB mods/revisions will not require nearly the R&D/dev time. I can only imagine how well the RMC-1 variant is going to be and how many stencils for other outfits you guys are gunna crank out of Tennessee! BTW did you think this day would ever come Lonny? hahaha nudge nudge... It's been one hell of a road for you guys eh! Yes, the ADC, volume controls and output drive stages are all on the analog output board. I can't really comment on the RMC but I bet you can guess why we did it this way.  Lonnie |
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Post by hifiaudio2 on Jul 14, 2014 20:19:56 GMT -5
Can't wait to see what you have in store. No doubt I'll be buying it, too. Please give us 13.1 fully balanced so we can use wides and 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos plus the normal 7.1. Never too early for an RMC sign up list. |
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Post by Lonnie on Jul 14, 2014 20:22:22 GMT -5
Can't wait to see what you have in store. No doubt I'll be buying it, too. Please give us 13.1 fully balanced so we can use wides and 4 ceiling speakers for Atmos plus the normal 7.1. Never too early for an RMC sign up list. You never know what we might come up with. Lonnie |
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