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Post by pop on Jul 16, 2014 20:06:07 GMT -5
I can see the benefit of independently configured subs for movies, but what would be the benefits for music assuming you were listening in stereo.
More specifically to the XMC, will we have the option to configure stereo subs for surround sound formats and mono for stereo formats?
What are the benefits/negatives of independently configured subwoofers for movies/music?
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 16, 2014 20:36:58 GMT -5
Less excursion for each sub driver reducing intermodulation-distortion for the bass frequencies.
Tighter bass (from less excursion)
Less strain on the sub amps
Separation of bass sources when it exists in the recording
Diminution of room resonances (standing waves) due to the separation of bass sources
Less excitation of the subwoofer enclosures' vibration modes due to lower SPL from each
Better coupling to the room due to more cone area
The above are, obviously, benefits. Negatives:
Lower WAF
Adding bass sources may overload some rooms
Unless locations are carefully chosen, the two subs may create their own resonances at some frequencies
Expense
Potential hearing damage if the subs are routinely cranked up beyond moderate levels
Neighbor complaints
Tendency to attract brain-dead teenagers in boom-box cars as they come to "feel the noize"
Small improvement for large expense - since bass is omnidirectional, room treatments or bass equalizers may provide better and more economical bass improvement
Difficulty in blending with main speakers - some are very sensitive at the crossover frequencies
Difficulty in setting phase and volume to match the main speakers
Every time main speakers or amplifier sensitivities change, the subs must be recalibrated
You pays your money, you takes your choice...
Boomzilla
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Post by pop on Jul 16, 2014 20:40:49 GMT -5
Hey Boom, thanks.
Sorry, maybe I should have been a bit more clear.
My question was more aimed at already owning 2 subwoofers and running them independently in stereo or both on the same feed for mono.
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 16, 2014 20:48:26 GMT -5
Movies are more likely to have separate sub information. Most music in existence was originally mastered for phonograph, and the bass frequencies were essentially mono. Unless the original master tapes have been transcribed again for digital use, the bass frequencies will be essentially mono anyway (phonographs just don't have much ability to separate bass between channels). I'd try it both ways, but unless you're listening to SACDs or music remastered for digital, I doubt that you'll find much program material that has true stereo bass. The above is my understanding and I may be wrong - garbulky? DYohn? KeithL? |
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Post by jlafrenz on Jul 16, 2014 21:08:36 GMT -5
The simple answer is that because of the same reason we have 2 or stereo speakers. Each channel may have different information and the subwoofer helps extend the frequency reproduction of that channel.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 16, 2014 21:11:35 GMT -5
Movies are more likely to have separate sub information. Most music in existence was originally mastered for phonograph, and the bass frequencies were essentially mono. Unless the original master tapes have been transcribed again for digital use, the bass frequencies will be essentially mono anyway (phonographs just don't have much ability to separate bass between channels). I'd try it both ways, but unless you're listening to SACDs or music remastered for digital, I doubt that you'll find much program material that has true stereo bass. The above is my understanding and I may be wrong - garbulky? DYohn? KeithL? Since we can't discern directionality in frequencies below ~80hz, the need for stereo bass is pretty much an academic (not real world) discussion. Cheers Gary |
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Post by pedrocols on Jul 16, 2014 21:42:29 GMT -5
So will owning a single speaker be enough for stereo reproduction?
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 16, 2014 21:45:39 GMT -5
Since we can't discern directionality in frequencies below ~80hz, the need for stereo bass is pretty much an academic (not real world) discussion. Cheers Gary If we're talking bass sounds that are from a single source (drums, organs, bass-guitars) then I agree with you. I do, however, have some electronic music that deliberately plays bass in one channel, then the other. It is perfectly clear on headphones. Since the bass sounds are not simultaneous, then there is, in fact, both right and left bass. With full-range speakers, the bass (below 80 Hz) is audibly directional - or not... Perhaps only the above-80 Hz. components with bass sounds make the source seem directional? |
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Post by deltadube on Jul 16, 2014 22:32:43 GMT -5
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Post by pop on Jul 16, 2014 23:37:25 GMT -5
So assuming the music/movie was recorded for 5.2/7.2 etc. your subs will act independently as left and right? If the recording is only dedicated with 1 LFE channel does that mean the subs will automatically act as mono, Or will the XMC matrix the LFE channel to assist the left and right speaker?
Sorry if this isn't making sense. I don't really understand how stereo subs work, and am very interested in getting a grasp on this.
I understand how, assuming your subs are symmetrical and of equal distance from your center point, you could create a real nice "sweeping" effect with the LFE having them in stereo. However, as already stated by Gary we have a hard time localizing frequencies less than 80hz. In theory if your subs were picking up everything below 80hz wouldn't you just be loosing impact by only the left or right sub being in use?
Example: bomb goes off left side of the screen, instead of utilizing both subs to pressurize and smooth the effects, the left sub is the only one putting out any effect. In this statement you actually are missing out. We aren't localizing anything to the left side besides what was already going to come from the left speaker. the LFE source still remains unidentifiable. It just has less impact.
In my system now, two subs mono, if that same explosion goes off left side of the screen there is still emphasis to the left side. Obviously because the left main is creating the explosion. Inherently the LFE to me feels like it originates from the left side in this explosion because there is so much emphasis coming from that direction. So I am getting the benefits from both subs but still getting the effect that the explosion originated from the left.
Without being able to test this, I am forced to guess that stereo subs will have very little benefit even potentially do more harm than good.
Any further input would be appreciated.
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 16, 2014 23:45:26 GMT -5
So assuming the music/movie was recorded for 5.2/7.2 etc. your subs will act independently as left and right? If the recording is only dedicated with 1 LFE channel does that mean the subs will automatically act as mono, Or will the XMC matrix the LFE channel to assist the left and right speaker? Sorry if this isn't making sense. I don't really understand how stereo subs work, and am very interested in getting a grasp on this. I understand how, assuming your subs are symmetrical and of equal distance from your center point, you could create a real nice "sweeping" effect with the LFE having them in stereo. However, as already stated by Gary we have a hard time localizing frequencies less than 80hz. In theory if your subs were picking up everything below 80hz wouldn't you just be loosing impact by only the left or right sub being in use? Example: bomb goes off left side of the screen, instead of utilizing both subs to pressurize and smooth the effects, the left sub is the only one putting out any effect. In this statement you actually are missing out. We aren't localizing anything to the left side besides what was already going to come from the left speaker. the LFE source still remains unidentifiable. It just has less impact. In my system now, two subs mono, if that same explosion goes off left side of the screen there is still emphasis to the left side. Obviously because the left main is creating the explosion. Inherently the LFE to me feels like it originates from the left side in this explosion because there is so much emphasis coming from that direction. So I am getting the benefits from both subs but still getting the effect that the explosion originated from the left. Without being able to test this, I am forced to guess that stereo subs will have very little benefit even potentially do more harm than good. Any further input would be appreciated. In your mono sub example you say if the explosion happens on the left side of the screen there is still emphasis on the left side and it feels to you like it originates from the left. I assume you mean that your MIND is telling you it is coming from the left side even though in actuality it is a mono signal. As has been discussed often in the Lounge, the mind fills in a lot of gaps. For example, my speakers are below screen level yet when I watch a movie it seems to me that when characters are on screen the words are coming directly from their mouths. Even with an older movie and a mono signal, my brain tells me that the dialog is coming from the left part of the TV screen when the character on the left is speaking. How many movies have stereo sub recordings? Very few, I would think. So even if you have stereo subs, if the LFE is mono then what good do stereo subs do? And, if the real low frequencies are non-directional, then it is your brain that has more to do with where you perceive the low frequencies coming from, based on what you see on the screen, rather than where the actual sound is emanating. |
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Post by pop on Jul 16, 2014 23:46:03 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. I think that about proved my theory correct. Should have read it before typing out all that out.  It's been hard finding good info. On this subject. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 23:46:40 GMT -5
Movies are more likely to have separate sub information. Most music in existence was originally mastered for phonograph, and the bass frequencies were essentially mono. Unless the original master tapes have been transcribed again for digital use, the bass frequencies will be essentially mono anyway (phonographs just don't have much ability to separate bass between channels). I'd try it both ways, but unless you're listening to SACDs or music remastered for digital, I doubt that you'll find much program material that has true stereo bass. The above is my understanding and I may be wrong - garbulky? DYohn? KeithL? Cheers Gary That's the pertinent answer! |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 23:48:29 GMT -5
Wow, you are fast Bob! That's the exact one from Tom N I had read this afternoon!  |
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Post by pop on Jul 16, 2014 23:48:35 GMT -5
monkumonkuExactly. My mind is perceiving emphasis from the location.
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Post by AudioHTIT on Jul 16, 2014 23:51:28 GMT -5
I think all movie LFE tracks are .1 - the only time you would benefit from stereo subs would be with music. You would still EQ them as separate devices but this stereo / mono debate is only pertenent to music.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 23:52:06 GMT -5
Since we can't discern directionality in frequencies below ~80hz, the need for stereo bass is pretty much an academic (not real world) discussion. Cheers Gary If we're talking bass sounds that are from a single source (drums, organs, bass-guitars) then I agree with you. I do, however, have some electronic music that deliberately plays bass in one channel, then the other. It is perfectly clear on headphones. Since the bass sounds are not simultaneous, then there is, in fact, both right and left bass. With full-range speakers, the bass (below 80 Hz) is audibly directional - or not... Perhaps only the above-80 Hz. components with bass sounds make the source seem directional?The harmonics above the 80Hz range are what allow you to locate the origin of the sound and those come thru the main speakers, unless you have the sub filter set too high (above 80Hz). |
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Post by novisnick on Jul 17, 2014 0:07:22 GMT -5
I think all movie LFE tracks are .1 - the only time you would benefit from stereo subs would be with music. You would still EQ them as separate devices but this stereo / mono debate is only pertenent to music. I beg to differ with you. A recent airing of the movie Gravity distinctly proves that it IS recorded for stereo subs, myself and company have witnessed this event. I do think you have it backwards. I state this with all due respect. Nick |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 17, 2014 0:38:58 GMT -5
I beg to differ with you. A recent airing of the movie Gravity distinctly proves that it IS recorded for stereo subs, myself and company have witnessed this event. I do think you have it backwards. I state this with all due respect. Nick Hi Nick, my Gravity blu ray (Zone B) is 5.1 not 5.2, hence mono LFE. So I'm with Chucky on this one; The harmonics above the 80Hz range are what allow you to locate the origin of the sound and those come thru the main speakers, unless you have the sub filter set too high (above 80Hz). Cheers Gary |
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Post by solidstate on Jul 17, 2014 0:43:10 GMT -5
I beg to differ with you. A recent airing of the movie Gravity distinctly proves that it IS recorded for stereo subs, myself and company have witnessed this event. I do think you have it backwards. I state this with all due respect. Nick Hi Nick, my Gravity blu ray (Zone B) is 5.1 not 5.2, hence mono LFE. So I'm with Chucky on this one; The harmonics above the 80Hz range are what allow you to locate the origin of the sound and those come thru the main speakers, unless you have the sub filter set too high (above 80Hz). Cheers Gary You don't understand. No AV mux from any current transport supports two discrete LFE channels IE .2 The .2 means the unit has two sets of sub outputs that can be EQ'd via DSP engine separately but they are both producing the same .1 channel source/signal. Do you understand what I mean garycook? When Emo/Jade say the XMC-1 is 7.2 they are not saying the .2 is addressable via AV mux discretely. They are saying their room correction/DSP engine supports discretely EQ'ing and room correcting on those two outputs. Do you get it now bro? Perhaps DIRAC can process a 2 channel source and mix discretely the LFE info from the low pass on a discrete LR level and send it stereo down the two sub outputs but it's honestly pointless as these sound are mono in nature in your room anyway. |
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