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Post by deltadube on Jul 17, 2014 11:36:33 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. I think that about proved my theory correct. Should have read it before typing out all that out.  It's been hard finding good info. On this subject. big Tom V gave me that read.. I re watched world war z last night windows rattling a little bit.. master at -13.5 with subs hot +2db on the trim over aud.. im wanting more tho wondering what another pair would do for me  as Rickie says ive turn into a bass head junkie!!! cheers... |
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 17, 2014 11:43:49 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. I think that about proved my theory correct. Should have read it before typing out all that out. It's been hard finding good info. On this subject. big Tom V gave me that read.. I re watched world war z last night windows rattling a little bit.. master at -13.5 with subs hot +2db on the trim over aud.. im wanting more tho wondering what another pair would do for me as Rickie says ive turn into a bass head junkie!!! cheers... You need some professional help. |
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Post by pop on Jul 17, 2014 11:45:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the link. I think that about proved my theory correct. Should have read it before typing out all that out. It's been hard finding good info. On this subject. big Tom V gave me that read.. I re watched world war z last night windows rattling a little bit.. master at -13.5 with subs hot +2db on the trim over aud.. im wanting more tho wondering what another pair would do for me as Rickie says ive turn into a bass head junkie!!! cheers... Is it more extension you are looking for? In general more output? I am shocked that 2 of those XS15se aren't rocking your world. What subs did you have previously? If you are going to upgrade, simply sell those and purchase 2 XS30se |
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Post by deltadube on Jul 17, 2014 11:47:52 GMT -5
Wow, you are fast Bob! That's the exact one from Tom N I had read this afternoon! I guess Tom V.. are you looking to buy some psa sub s ? im wanting more lol.. ive posted that link a few times around here lately.. anybody know what the xmc 1 roll off slope is for the xovers or is there multiple choices like 12 and 24db/octave.. the xsp 1 is only 12db/octave.. you could have subs set up for music stereo with a cd.. but in htbypass subs are mono.. stereo didn't sound bad to me but I think I have more output in mono.. .. cheers |
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Post by deltadube on Jul 17, 2014 11:55:52 GMT -5
big Tom V gave me that read.. I re watched world war z last night windows rattling a little bit.. master at -13.5 with subs hot +2db on the trim over aud.. im wanting more tho wondering what another pair would do for me as Rickie says ive turn into a bass head junkie!!! cheers... Is it more extension you are looking for? In general more output? I am shocked that 2 of those XS15se aren't rocking your world. What subs did you have previously? If you are going to upgrade, simply sell those and purchase 2 XS30se I think the extension is good according to the graphs at databass . com maybe a tad low on output.. another pair would give me about 6db more out put.. a bit more 1db to 2db over the xs30s big Tom said.. would cost me 400 in shipping to send back so be better just to stick with the small xs15se and add more.. vs 2 xs30se.. which I don't really have to room for .. pretty happy with my purchase.. its like a drug though and I want more!!! cheers |
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HDSapper
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Post by HDSapper on Jul 17, 2014 12:02:44 GMT -5
Maybe it's already been said, but I think I read that in stereo both subs get the LFE channel (the .1), and additionally they get the low frequencies from the speakers on their respective side (based on your speaker size and crossover settings). They also both get the low frequencies filter out of the center (again based on center speaker size and crossover setting).
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Post by monkumonku on Jul 17, 2014 13:11:46 GMT -5
Is it more extension you are looking for? In general more output? I am shocked that 2 of those XS15se aren't rocking your world. What subs did you have previously? If you are going to upgrade, simply sell those and purchase 2 XS30se I think the extension is good according to the graphs at databass . com maybe a tad low on output.. another pair would give me about 6db more out put.. a bit more 1db to 2db over the xs30s big Tom said.. would cost me 400 in shipping to send back so be better just to stick with the small xs15se and add more.. vs 2 xs30se.. which I don't really have to room for .. pretty happy with my purchase.. its like a drug though and I want more!!! cheers I think you need to get in touch with Richguy and ask how you can be a part of his avatar.  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 13:42:06 GMT -5
If your sub is easier to localize typically that means it is in the wrong position in your room. I would experiment with different locations. Ok so last night I did a 80hz and lower sweep on the subs and had Jessica turn one on at a time (Blind testing) Here is a picture of my subs and their locations  IMG_0135 by Austin Contemporary Dance, on Flickr I was wrong 5 out of 6 times. She picked which sub would be on and she started the sweep. I literally took a wild guess at what sub was on. This test proves at least to me that 80hz and below is harder to localize. I thought as the sweep started that I was locating the sub at 80hz, so generally that was the one I picked. Mostly, I was wrong. Thank you for this confirmation of what I said in previous posts. Also a test CD with specific frequency test tones (not a sweep) is also very helpful. I note a like of your post from a member who earlier seemingly contradicts your findings. You comment: If your sub is easier to localize typically that means it is in the wrong position in your room. I would experiment with different locations.
I would say it has more to do with the bass management settings you use. If you want more volume from your subs without adding another sub I would look at the placement of the current subs in your room. I think the current placement aesthetically looks great! However, placed in or near a corner if possible would help increase the output if needed. |
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Post by pop on Jul 17, 2014 13:59:48 GMT -5
@chuckienut
I completely agree with you on better placement. However, I know you can't see my full room, but there are NO corners. I have tried multiple other locations and behind the couch works Okay, but ultimately with general consensus the sound was best in their convenient locations. In fact, even swapping the subs and the Pendragons (Which I would prefer for the speakers) Proves to loose impact on the subs. More damage to the subs than gain from the speakers.
One of these days I will have my system in the room it deserves, and that will be the single biggest upgrade I will ever experience. It sounds Really really ridiculously good right now. I am extremely satisfied. Now what I would really enjoy for some lounge members to come over for a listen. The XMC is going to be a monumental improvement over the UMC-1. Hopefully Dirac takes me to the next level as well.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2014 14:11:48 GMT -5
Pop, you've obviously have consider all placement options. I have a similar situation in that there is only one location choice for my single sub. I doubt if the XMC-1/Dirac will have much to do this issue unless you have less than optimally set up your current speaker/sub now. Good luck! |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 17, 2014 15:02:52 GMT -5
If your sub is easier to localize typically that means it is in the wrong position in your room. I would experiment with different locations. Ok so last night I did a 80hz and lower sweep on the subs and had Jessica turn one on at a time (Blind testing) Here is a picture of my subs and their locations IMG_0135 by Austin Contemporary Dance, on Flickr I was wrong 5 out of 6 times. She picked which sub would be on and she started the sweep. I literally took a wild guess at what sub was on. This test proves at least to me that 80hz and below is harder to localize. I thought as the sweep started that I was locating the sub at 80hz, so generally that was the one I picked. Mostly, I was wrong. Fantastic! This is what I'm looking for. Thanks for trying. So the sweep was not localizable right? A few questions: - Were the speakers (other than the subwoofer) turned off at the time. - Was the volume by any chance reasonably loud? If so, have you tried with a quieter volume? I'm not talking whisper quiet but simply not loud. The reason I ask is that room bounce of a powerful bass sweep would have the sound coming from all directions. What's interesting is that B'zilla could localize his XV-15 sub even though it is crossed over at 80hz. Though he had a tough time hearing the lower frequencies. However in your setup with your XV-15 localization was not possible. You mentioned the positioning could effect localization - could you expand on that? Once again, thanks for trying! |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 17, 2014 15:15:02 GMT -5
I'm ahead of you, Gar - I've played the bass sweep (and music) with the sub on but the speakers off. Yes, the sub IS localizable with music - I can even discern voices from the sub. I'm sure this is an artifact of the 12 dB/octave crossover. As the frequencies descend with test tones, though, localization becomes far harder. I'll try the sweep again to see if I can localize 80 Hz. Using a single sub, hard left in my room, though, I can't localize the sub with stereo music using an 80 Hz. crossover. When a drum is in the right channel, the sound seems to emanate from the right speaker only, despite the fact that all <80 Hz. info is in the sub only. I agree. I remember when I heard your sub, the bass was simply not localizable to the hard left. It appeared in the center and also followed where the bass information is supposed to be. Right now pops says the bass is unable to be localized during the test tones but we heard the bass when playing the test tones. And we've all heard the same model of the subwoofer and crossover. It's an interesting result. I'm not sure what it means. I'll grant chuckie the fundamental overtones making it localizable with my speaker. It's possible - though not likely imo with the 80 hz test tone as it went all the way down to 35 hz till the speaker stopped responding but I won't say it's impossible. I may disconnect the tweeter and mid's and have only the bass woofers play to see if that makes any kind of difference. For now, I'm still not convinced that a mono sub in a stereo system is the way to go especially if the bass is technically localizable with test tones though not really so much in real life music playback. If the ear can localize a sub but somehow the brain tunes out it in the complexity of regular music - does that make it most ideal fidelity for a music system? I don't know. What I do know is that your system sounds fantastic with a mono sub  |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 17, 2014 15:24:39 GMT -5
Thanks, Gar - I think so too, which is why I've resisted the second sub so long. If I had speakers that needed stands, then the Chuck Elliot / pop method of using the subs for stands would justify the second. But in my room, at the volumes I listen, and with the sound as good as it is, I'm just not ready to invest in more subs. If my room had boom, then yes, a second sub would definitely be justified to reduce room resonances, but even with my sub hard in a corner, I have pretty smooth bass.
It's hard to believe, but I'm actually consistently resisting purchase of additional equipment! LOL
By the way, Novisnick suggested putting my Axioms on stands. I'm not sure that I couldn't get the same effect by tilting them back slightly... Your thoughts?
Boom
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Post by pop on Jul 17, 2014 15:25:57 GMT -5
I'm ahead of you, Gar - I've played the bass sweep (and music) with the sub on but the speakers off. Yes, the sub IS localizable with music - I can even discern voices from the sub. I'm sure this is an artifact of the 12 dB/octave crossover. As the frequencies descend with test tones, though, localization becomes far harder. I'll try the sweep again to see if I can localize 80 Hz. Using a single sub, hard left in my room, though, I can't localize the sub with stereo music using an 80 Hz. crossover. When a drum is in the right channel, the sound seems to emanate from the right speaker only, despite the fact that all <80 Hz. info is in the sub only. I agree. I remember when I heard your sub, the bass was simply not localizable to the hard left. It appeared in the center and also followed where the bass information is supposed to be. Right now pops says the bass is unable to be localized during the test tones but we heard the bass when playing the test tones. And we've all heard the same model of the subwoofer and crossover. It's an interesting result. I'm not sure what it means. I'll grant chuckie the fundamental overtones making it localizable with my speaker. It's possible - though not likely imo with the 80 hz test tone as it went all the way down to 35 hz till the speaker stopped responding but I won't say it's impossible. I may disconnect the tweeter and mid's and have only the bass woofers play to see if that makes any kind of difference. For now, I'm still not convinced that a mono sub in a stereo system is the way to go especially if the bass is technically localizable with test tones though not really so much in real life music playback. If the ear can localize a sub but somehow the brain tunes out it in the complexity of regular music - does that make it most ideal fidelity for a music system? I don't know. What I do know is that your system sounds fantastic with a mono sub Keep in mind Gar, My subs are separated by 4 feet. There isn't too much difference in distance between the two of them. It seems the only way to truly test this is going to be with the real world application. When I receive my XMC I will be doing lot's of testing on the differences between stereo and mono |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 17, 2014 15:31:02 GMT -5
Thanks, Gar - I think so too, which is why I've resisted the second sub so long. If I had speakers that needed stands, then the Chuck Elliot / pop method of using the subs for stands would justify the second. But in my room, at the volumes I listen, and with the sound as good as it is, I'm just not ready to invest in more subs. If my room had boom, then yes, a second sub would definitely be justified to reduce room resonances, but even with my sub hard in a corner, I have pretty smooth bass. It's hard to believe, but I'm actually consistently resisting purchase of additional equipment! LOL By the way, Novisnick suggested putting my Axioms on stands. I'm not sure that I couldn't get the same effect by tilting them back slightly... Your thoughts? Boom Unfortunately, I have no experience in stands and tilting. I wouldn't think they would provide the same result - I have no experience. The tilting would tilt the entire setup changing the Frequency response. It would also cause a different bounce off the roof. Raising it sounds physically different to me. That's where I'm thinking?  Maybe it's time to bust out the ol' Klipsch trash cans?!   |
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Post by garbulky on Jul 17, 2014 15:34:48 GMT -5
I agree. I remember when I heard your sub, the bass was simply not localizable to the hard left. It appeared in the center and also followed where the bass information is supposed to be. Right now pops says the bass is unable to be localized during the test tones but we heard the bass when playing the test tones. And we've all heard the same model of the subwoofer and crossover. It's an interesting result. I'm not sure what it means. I'll grant chuckie the fundamental overtones making it localizable with my speaker. It's possible - though not likely imo with the 80 hz test tone as it went all the way down to 35 hz till the speaker stopped responding but I won't say it's impossible. I may disconnect the tweeter and mid's and have only the bass woofers play to see if that makes any kind of difference. For now, I'm still not convinced that a mono sub in a stereo system is the way to go especially if the bass is technically localizable with test tones though not really so much in real life music playback. If the ear can localize a sub but somehow the brain tunes out it in the complexity of regular music - does that make it most ideal fidelity for a music system? I don't know. What I do know is that your system sounds fantastic with a mono sub Keep in mind Gar, My subs are separated by 4 feet. There isn't too much difference in distance between the two of them. It seems the only way to truly test this is going to be with the real world application. When I receive my XMC I will be doing lot's of testing on the differences between stereo and mono I'm looking forward to it. My dream setup right now DC-1 (or better. Looking at the lampzilla) XSP-1 - or better XPA-1 L's / XPA-1 Two powersound XV15's. Not sure about speakers yet. M80's or better. Have thought about Pendragons - seas, Legacy etc. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Jul 17, 2014 15:47:03 GMT -5
I may try both ways & just see. The outriggers are adjustable, so tilt is as simple as adjusting the feet. Risers are anything with a foot or so of sturdiness. I've got some furniture dollies that should serve fine while also allowing plenty of easy positional adjustment. Time will tell...
I'm also itching to try the Audioquest Dragonfly through the Yaquin tube buffer to the Crown XLS-2000 power amp! That rig gets the Oppo out of the loop completely.
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Post by DYohn on Jul 17, 2014 19:15:54 GMT -5
The main reason for using multiple subwoofers (besides increasing SPL) is to cancel room modes. Many theorists, including my hero Dr. Earl Geddes, thinks three sources for LF information is ideal. Others, such as Dr. Floyd Toole, think it's more like six. So bottom line it' about creating a uniform LF sound field.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jul 17, 2014 20:22:19 GMT -5
It's an interesting result. I'm not sure what it means. I'll grant chuckie the fundamental overtones making it localizable with my speaker. It's possible - though not likely imo with the 80 hz test tone as it went all the way down to 35 hz till the speaker stopped responding but I won't say it's impossible. How about this, the second harmonic of 35 hz is 70 hz and it's that second harmonic that becomes non directional, as it's below the 80 hz non directional range. I also believe that "omnidirectional" and "non directional" are not synonymous. To me omnidirectional sound comes from everywhere, all around me. Whereas with non directional sound it's hard to tell exactly where it comes from. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Priapulus on Jul 17, 2014 21:14:20 GMT -5
The second Sub outlet on the xmc-1 is for your buttkickers.
/b
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