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Post by novisnick on Oct 4, 2014 21:03:00 GMT -5
Minus the silver trim and it's perfect!!! :-) Whoops  Ahhhhhh, More Betta! |
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Post by rob80b on Oct 4, 2014 22:40:14 GMT -5
Unfortunately with the way the internet is inundated with misinformation and misguided rumors all future XSP-1 Gen II owners will be calling tech support wondering how to access the display for the crossover.  |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 4, 2014 23:15:41 GMT -5
Unfortunately with the way the internet is inundated with misinformation and misguided rumors all future XSP-1 Gen II owners will be calling tech support wondering how to access the display for the crossover. WHAT? Ive already sent an E-Mail to Lonnie asking that exact question!! What's going on? I saw it on the Internet,,,, it must be true! i want some answers buddy!!!,,,,,,,, ,,,,,........he,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,,,  |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2014 20:30:35 GMT -5
Rob, if you get time could you do an experiment with the XSP-1, and a test tone CD? An experiment could be done using the 8:30 position that you already have the XSP-1 set to. Sweeping down through the test tones to see which frequency it is that drops out could be revealing. This might be a valid way to see how far off the XO dial is.
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2014 1:18:11 GMT -5
Sorry, guys, but the markings ARE "for reference only" - which means that you can use them to remember where you set the knob, but the specific dots do NOT correspond to any specific frequencies. Also, if you want to calibrate the actual settings of your preamp crossover, then I STRONGLY suggest that you actually measure the signal frequency response AT THE ELECTRICAL OUTPUTS. Using something like REW to measure the in-room response of your whole system is an excellent way to calibrate THE WHOLE SYSTEM, but you will NOT get an accurate picture of what the electrical filter in the preamp is actually doing by itself by measuring the entire system. This is because the variations in the frequency response of speakers and rooms are so extreme that they often completely obscure the electrical response of the source signal itself. For example, if your room and speakers together have a 12 dB peak at 50 Hz, and you set a high-pass crossover filter at 80 Hz, your in-room frequency response will be UP at 50 Hz instead of down - as you would expect - because the peak in your speakers and room has more effect on the overall frequency response of the entire system than the crossover filter at that particular frequency. I am very interested to hear what you come up with. I really like my XSP-1 gen 2 EXCEPT for the bizarrely placed crossover controls in the back of the unit. Adjusting them requires a visit to the chiropractor! Maybe it is not possible from an engineering standpoint, but I wish Emotiva would have incorporated a simple digital setting as opposed to the headlamp-small mirror-tiny screwdriver adjustment feature. Should be but not necessarily so, the controls go from 50 to 250 Hz, so a 200 Hz window, depending if they are linear or non-linear, 12:00 o’clock would be an additional 100Hz so 150HZ, so yes 8:30 should be around 80Hz.  But from my findings, my XSP-1 Gen II may be closer to what was used on the USP-1 which was 11 o’clock for 80Hz, and therefore making the markings almost frivolous. : ) |
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Post by sahmen on Oct 6, 2014 5:37:50 GMT -5
Sorry, guys, but the markings ARE "for reference only" - which means that you can use them to remember where you set the knob, but the specific dots do NOT correspond to any specific frequencies. Wow! That sounds somewhat confusing, but interesting... Does that also mean that the numbers of 50hz and 250hz that actually appear on the knobs in order to specify the range ofavailable crossover frequencies do not correspond to any actual frequencies? |
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 9:44:28 GMT -5
Sorry, guys, but the markings ARE "for reference only" - which means that you can use them to remember where you set the knob, but the specific dots do NOT correspond to any specific frequencies. Also, if you want to calibrate the actual settings of your preamp crossover, then I STRONGLY suggest that you actually measure the signal frequency response AT THE ELECTRICAL OUTPUTS. Using something like REW to measure the in-room response of your whole system is an excellent way to calibrate THE WHOLE SYSTEM, but you will NOT get an accurate picture of what the electrical filter in the preamp is actually doing by itself by measuring the entire system. This is because the variations in the frequency response of speakers and rooms are so extreme that they often completely obscure the electrical response of the source signal itself. For example, if your room and speakers together have a 12 dB peak at 50 Hz, and you set a high-pass crossover filter at 80 Hz, your in-room frequency response will be UP at 50 Hz instead of down - as you would expect - because the peak in your speakers and room has more effect on the overall frequency response of the entire system than the crossover filter at that particular frequency. Thanks Keith From my earlier post emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/677712/thread it’s obvious that the 8:30 setting does not appear to be at 80Hz with regards to the amount energy obtained when looking at the individual read outs from the sub and the mains, but as I mentioned their combined output does achieve, at least visually and from listening a flat response across the frequency spectrum at 80Hz. When adjusting the crossovers to obtain more volume at 80Hz when taking individual readings with the sub and the mains the end results where totally unsatisfactory, producing too much mid bass bloat and the midrange and up as well as lower as the lower bass became recessed. But working with the 8:30 settings with my equipment, in my room, may have been a happy coincidence as the results have been very rewarding but only after also determining the proper placement, phase and polarity of the sub required to reduce peaks (doubling) and valleys (cancellations) in the room and then also between the sub and mains. Of course one should not even attempt at adding the sub until the mains have been properly positioned to obtain the best frequency response, imaging and continuity in one’s room with regards to the “stereo” sound reproduction. Adding a sub is like redesigning your speakers, if they are a two-way, into a three-way, it takes time, patience and a lot of work to achieve the best “compromise” and it will always be a compromise. |
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 10:04:47 GMT -5
Sorry, guys, but the markings ARE "for reference only" - which means that you can use them to remember where you set the knob, but the specific dots do NOT correspond to any specific frequencies. Wow! That sounds somewhat confusing, but interesting... Does that also mean that the numbers of 50hz and 250hz that actually appear on the knobs in order to specify the range ofavailable crossover frequencies do not correspond to any actual frequencies? Now that is a good question. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2014 11:41:59 GMT -5
No; the numbers at the ends of the range should be correct, but the dots in-between are simply so you can remember where the knob is set. Wow! That sounds somewhat confusing, but interesting... Does that also mean that the numbers of 50hz and 250hz that actually appear on the knobs in order to specify the range ofavailable crossover frequencies do not correspond to any actual frequencies? Now that is a good question. |
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edrummereasye
Sensei
"This aggression will not stand, man!"
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Post by edrummereasye on Oct 6, 2014 11:42:49 GMT -5
Wow! That sounds somewhat confusing, but interesting... Does that also mean that the numbers of 50hz and 250hz that actually appear on the knobs in order to specify the range ofavailable crossover frequencies do not correspond to any actual frequencies? Now that is a good question. I believe that the 1st gen XSP works like the USP-1 (and I have both), in that 80 Hz is around 11 o'clock on the dials. Not sure if anyone ever confirmed that with REW (I'm sure someone did, but don't know if they posted about it here). I have to think that the XSP-1 Gen2 is set up the same way. Now I'm not sure which I want more...an upgrade to the Gen2, or one of those Velodynes...  |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Oct 6, 2014 11:57:27 GMT -5
To reiterate - and to stress what I'm saying in light of that other thread - trying to "measure" what an electronic control like a crossover is doing by measuring the output of the speakers in a room is a BAD IDEA.  To put it bluntly, those readings will probably change significantly depending on where you put the microphone - so how do you know/decide which set of readings to use? These differences can be so extreme that they completely obscure what a crossover or other filter is doing. If you want to accurately measure what an electronic control or circuit is doing, you MUST send test signals through it, and then directly measure the output ELECTRICALLY, using either an oscilloscope or a digital voltmeter (or even an older analog meter like a VTVM) that provides accurate reading over the entire audio range - or, at the very least, over the range you're measuring. ( UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY SAY OTHERWISE, MOST METERS ARE ONLY ACCURATE OVER THE "POWER FREQUENCIES" - FROM ABOUT 30 Hz TO ABOUT 200 Hz OR SO.)
It makes perfect sense to use those controls to ADJUST your entire system, and readings of the speaker output are certainly useful if that's what you're trying to adjust, but trying to "reverse engineer" what the filter itself is doing from the readings from your speakers and room is not likely to produce accurate or useful results. It's just not a good idea; sorry. 
Sorry, guys, but the markings ARE "for reference only" - which means that you can use them to remember where you set the knob, but the specific dots do NOT correspond to any specific frequencies. Also, if you want to calibrate the actual settings of your preamp crossover, then I STRONGLY suggest that you actually measure the signal frequency response AT THE ELECTRICAL OUTPUTS. Using something like REW to measure the in-room response of your whole system is an excellent way to calibrate THE WHOLE SYSTEM, but you will NOT get an accurate picture of what the electrical filter in the preamp is actually doing by itself by measuring the entire system. This is because the variations in the frequency response of speakers and rooms are so extreme that they often completely obscure the electrical response of the source signal itself. For example, if your room and speakers together have a 12 dB peak at 50 Hz, and you set a high-pass crossover filter at 80 Hz, your in-room frequency response will be UP at 50 Hz instead of down - as you would expect - because the peak in your speakers and room has more effect on the overall frequency response of the entire system than the crossover filter at that particular frequency. Thanks Keith From my earlier post emotivalounge.proboards.com/post/677712/thread it’s obvious that the 8:30 setting does not appear to be at 80Hz with regards to the amount energy obtained when looking at the individual read outs from the sub and the mains, but as I mentioned their combined output does achieve, at least visually and from listening a flat response across the frequency spectrum at 80Hz. When adjusting the crossovers to obtain more volume at 80Hz when taking individual readings with the sub and the mains the end results where totally unsatisfactory, producing too much mid bass bloat and the midrange and up as well as lower as the lower bass became recessed. But working with the 8:30 settings with my equipment, in my room, may have been a happy coincidence as the results have been very rewarding but only after also determining the proper placement, phase and polarity of the sub required to reduce peaks (doubling) and valleys (cancellations) in the room and then also between the sub and mains. Of course one should not even attempt at adding the sub until the mains have been properly positioned to obtain the best frequency response, imaging and continuity in one’s room with regards to the “stereo” sound reproduction. Adding a sub is like redesigning your speakers, if they are a two-way, into a three-way, it takes time, patience and a lot of work to achieve the best “compromise” and it will always be a compromise. |
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 17:14:35 GMT -5
To reiterate - and to stress what I'm saying in light of that other thread - trying to "measure" what an electronic control like a crossover is doing by measuring the output of the speakers in a room is a BAD IDEA. To put it bluntly, those readings will probably change significantly depending on where you put the microphone - so how do you know/decide which set of readings to use? These differences can be so extreme that they completely obscure what a crossover or other filter is doing. If you want to accurately measure what an electronic control or circuit is doing, you MUST send test signals through it, and then directly measure the output ELECTRICALLY, using either an oscilloscope or a digital voltmeter (or even an older analog meter like a VTVM) that provides accurate reading over the entire audio range - or, at the very least, over the range you're measuring. ( UNLESS THEY SPECIFICALLY SAY OTHERWISE, MOST METERS ARE ONLY ACCURATE OVER THE "POWER FREQUENCIES" - FROM ABOUT 30 Hz TO ABOUT 200 Hz OR SO.)
It makes perfect sense to use those controls to ADJUST your entire system, and readings of the speaker output are certainly useful if that's what you're trying to adjust, but trying to "reverse engineer" what the filter itself is doing from the readings from your speakers and room is not likely to produce accurate or useful results. It's just not a good idea; sorry.
Have to agree as it took a fair bit of trial error as to where the dials should be set to achieve a smooth coherent frequency response in the bass region with my speakers and sub. After having tried a number of settings between the 12 o'clock setting and the 50Hz marking I finally did settle at 8:30 on the dial, is it 80hz? I may never know. |
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Post by Boomzilla on Oct 6, 2014 17:31:49 GMT -5
OK - Let me say this clearly: The average user has neither the equipment nor the expertise to electrically measure the roll-off of an unmarked electronic crossover. Measuring the in-room response is (grossly) inaccurate.
Therefore, I would STRONGLY tell the average user to avoid the XSP-1 like the plague if they're expecting to use it for bass management.
Emotiva touts a "feature" that is not readily usable by the average owner. This is fraudulent - period.
Without knowing what frequencies the markings correspond to, the user is left to endlessly diddle with the obscure crossover, hoping for a fortuitous result?
Emotiva owes their customers better. There is no excuse for a "feature" so poorly engineered as to be virtually unusable.
Absolutely no excuse.
Boomzilla
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 18:05:35 GMT -5
OK - Let me say this clearly: The average user has neither the equipment nor the expertise to electrically measure the roll-off of an unmarked electronic crossover. Measuring the in-room response is (grossly) inaccurate. Therefore, I would STRONGLY tell the average user to avoid the XSP-1 like the plague if they're expecting to use it for bass management. Emotiva touts a "feature" that is not readily usable by the average owner. This is fraudulent - period. Without knowing what frequencies the markings correspond to, the user is left to endlessly diddle with the obscure crossover, hoping for a fortuitous result? Emotiva owes their customers better. There is no excuse for a "feature" so poorly engineered as to be virtually unusable. Absolutely no excuse. Boomzilla I was agreeing with Keith on the fact that that without the tools (of which probably 99% of potential users probably do not have) which would be required to take a proper electrical measurement of the crossover we may never know. But I also have to agree that there is "no excuse" as it leaves quite a few in the dark, and if not from some help using Velodyne’s on screen base management to keep me in the ball park with how the sub and mains are reacting together I could be at it forever Bottom line is though.... if they are able to give us a 171 pages of test results emotiva.com/resources/media/XSP-1_Gen2_2013-11-27.pdf , I’m sure someone at Emotiva can do some measurements that would give users a close approximation of the crossover settings. But …..don’t avoid the XSP-1 as it is indeed a very fine preamp, now to go rummage in the basement and pull out my oscilloscopes. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 6, 2014 19:07:46 GMT -5
"Without knowing what frequencies the markings correspond to, the user is left to endlessly diddle with the obscure crossover, hoping for a fortuitous result?"
This is why I contend, that without the right measuring equipment, that running test tones to see what frequencies the markings "do" correspond to could be of benefit. Anyway, it's a zero cost approach.
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 19:43:39 GMT -5
Sorry, guys, but the markings ARE "for reference only" - which means that you can use them to remember where you set the knob, but the specific dots do NOT correspond to any specific frequencies....... ....... This is because the variations in the frequency response of speakers and rooms are so extreme that they often completely obscure the electrical response of the source signal itself. For example, if your room and speakers together have a 12 dB peak at 50 Hz, and you set a high-pass crossover filter at 80 Hz, your in-room frequency response will be UP at 50 Hz instead of down - as you would expect - because the peak in your speakers and room has more effect on the overall frequency response of the entire system than the crossover filter at that particular frequency. To reiterate - and to stress what I'm saying in light of that other thread - trying to "measure" what an electronic control like a crossover is doing by measuring the output of the speakers in a room is a BAD IDEA. To put it bluntly, those readings will probably change significantly depending on where you put the microphone - so how do you know/decide which set of readings to use? These differences can be so extreme that they completely obscure what a crossover or other filter is doing. Actually, giving it a bit more thought and to jump off the band-wagon for pre-calibrated crossover points, to what appears to a be a somewhat contentious issue there is credence as to what Keith was trying to convey and should not be ignored. Just to repeat but in my own words, basically an electrical signal can be repeatable measured “but” even if we knew exactly where the supposed 80Hz position is on the dial, once the electrical signal is finished its job recreating the desired waveform at the speakers the signal then becomes an acoustic one, that is then at the mercy of the properties of ones specific listening room, playing havoc on the original signals frequency response and possible making any predetermined crossover value redundant. This may fly in the face of conventional crossover theory, such as the widely accepted “80Hz” for both the mains and the sub to obtain the smoothest hand off and frequency response......and may be why so many become disenchanted with the end results. Next. |
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Post by novisnick on Oct 6, 2014 19:45:39 GMT -5
OK - Let me say this clearly: The average user has neither the equipment nor the expertise to electrically measure the roll-off of an unmarked electronic crossover. Measuring the in-room response is (grossly) inaccurate. Therefore, I would STRONGLY tell the average user to avoid the XSP-1 like the plague if they're expecting to use it for bass management. Emotiva touts a "feature" that is not readily usable by the average owner. This is fraudulent - period. Without knowing what frequencies the markings correspond to, the user is left to endlessly diddle with the obscure crossover, hoping for a fortuitous result? Emotiva owes their customers better. There is no excuse for a "feature" so poorly engineered as to be virtually unusable. Absolutely no excuse. Boomzilla I was agreeing with Keith on the fact that that without the tools (of which probably 99% of potential users probably do not have) which would be required to take a proper electrical measurement of the crossover we may never know. But I also have to agree that there is "no excuse" as it leaves quite a few in the dark, and if not from some help using Velodyne’s on screen base management to keep me in the ball park with how the sub and mains are reacting together I could be at it forever Bottom line is though.... if they are able to give us a 171 pages of test results emotiva.com/resources/media/XSP-1_Gen2_2013-11-27.pdf , I’m sure someone at Emotiva can do some measurements that would give users a close approximation of the crossover settings. But …..don’t avoid the XSP-1 as it is indeed a very fine preamp, now to go rummage in the basement and pull out my oscilloscopes. Hi all, as my handle states, I'm a novice. That said, I m no rocket scientice but marking a spot on the dial for a specific Hz for crossover, ,other then as a reference , would be an inaccurate marking for every room the XSP-1 would ever be placed in. isnt every room response different from another? Isn't the room a very large part of response? when I dial my sub in, aren't I really dialing in the room. Or, is all the information needed for the crossover inherent to the pre amp or music or something I just don't know or understand. Please forgive my lack of knowledge as I'm still learning. any help would be apriciated. Thank you so very much. Yes, I've been frustrated as hell playing with the dials on the BACK of the unit. Yes, I do own some tools to do what y'all say, but Lord help me ,,, I have a lot to learn cause I can't use them with any confidence at all right now. Rambled enough, just trying to catch up and learn a few things. novisnick |
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 20:01:44 GMT -5
Hi all, as my handle states, I'm a novice. That said, I m no rocket scientice but marking a spot on the dial for a specific Hz for crossover, ,other then as a reference , would be an inaccurate marking for every room the XSP-1 would ever be placed in. ......... novisnick Novice no more , you got it. (and there goes my idea for digitally displaying the crossover.)  |
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Post by rob80b on Oct 6, 2014 20:24:49 GMT -5
And giving it even more thought…. considering the XSP-1 is a “stereo preamp”, we should be grateful to have the “variable crossovers” for the sub… and... the mains and… for 2.1 bass management at that!…rather than "one” predetermined by the manufacturer, usually 80Hz.
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Post by monkumonku on Oct 6, 2014 20:30:46 GMT -5
Even if there were markings on the XSP-1 or even if some other analog preamp has markings on the dial (or a digital preamp with a digital display), how do you know the crossover is really what it says it is? Most people don't have the equipment to measure it anyway, right? And as Keith said, the characteristics of the room are going to play havoc with you.
Perhaps the biggest benefit of having clearly marked frequencies at each dot on the dial is the peace of mind you get from having clearly marked frequencies at each dot on the dial. Then you can sleep at night and not feel anxiety caused by uncertainty, because the dial says so.
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