Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 6, 2015 9:39:02 GMT -5
Well, wow! It does sound better when my F208 is set to Large. The only problem is that it cried uncle to the mighty XPR-2 yet once again.  Can't watch movies with ridiculous bass like Edge of Tomorrow with the Fronts set to Large for fear of bottoming out plus my C208 only goes down to 50 Hz. I can't believe I'm listening to Ariana Gramde's One Last Time but the bass line is incredible.  hehe. In the Dirac preset you can change the crossover to whatever you like after you run Dirac. It makes no difference whatsoever what the sizes or crossovers are set to when you run Dirac. They are only factored in after the fact and they can be changed without having to run Dirac again. Thanks Geebo. The thing that bothers me is that the sound changes as in bass output when I change the crossover from 50 hz to 60 hz etc. and even more when it's set to none. Shouldn't it sound exactly the same provided I keep my crossovers at low enough frequencies? For example the kick drum is much more robust when mains are set to large vs crossover at 50 hz (my setting to protect the F208 from the XPR-2 ripping it to coke cans). |
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Post by geebo on Mar 6, 2015 10:02:20 GMT -5
In the Dirac preset you can change the crossover to whatever you like after you run Dirac. It makes no difference whatsoever what the sizes or crossovers are set to when you run Dirac. They are only factored in after the fact and they can be changed without having to run Dirac again. Thanks Geebo. The thing that bothers me is that the sound changes as in bass output when I change the crossover from 50 hz to 60 hz etc. and even more when it's set to none. Shouldn't it sound exactly the same provided I keep my crossovers at low enough frequencies? For example the kick drum is much more robust when mains are set to large vs crossover at 50 hz (my setting to protect the F208 from the XPR-2 ripping it to coke cans). When I change the crossover I notice a change in the quality of the bass but not the quantity. When you set to Large are you also using Enhanced Bass? And do you have an SPL you can check levels with? You can always go into the Dirac preset and change the Sub level to taste. |
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Post by pmd918 on Mar 6, 2015 11:00:05 GMT -5
bootman and socketman - I agree with both of you. I think the issue is with expectations. I like socketman's car analogy. Certainly it is worthwhile to make a suggestion to a developer/manufacturer for improvements on their product. The difference here in this forum is that it seems that people actually expect their suggestions to be accepted and implemented. And people appear to get upset when their suggestions are not accepted. And there is certainly some question as to whether this feature is just missing or the functionality is broken. I'm sure there are arguments to be made for both sides, but they are very different issues. Broken is a problem, missing feature is not. In the end, it is great that we have this forum to voice our opinions, and even better that Emotiva takes the time to acknowledge and in most cases accept our criticism.
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Post by ansat on Mar 6, 2015 11:24:36 GMT -5
In the Dirac preset you can change the crossover to whatever you like after you run Dirac. It makes no difference whatsoever what the sizes or crossovers are set to when you run Dirac. They are only factored in after the fact and they can be changed without having to run Dirac again. Thanks Geebo. The thing that bothers me is that the sound changes as in bass output when I change the crossover from 50 hz to 60 hz etc. and even more when it's set to none. Shouldn't it sound exactly the same provided I keep my crossovers at low enough frequencies? For example the kick drum is much more robust when mains are set to large vs crossover at 50 hz (my setting to protect the F208 from the XPR-2 ripping it to coke cans). this sounds like a time alignment issue at the cross over between the sub and the mains. Do you have a variable phase on your sub? Tony |
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tubby
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Post by tubby on Mar 6, 2015 12:25:01 GMT -5
bootman and socketman - I agree with both of you. I think the issue is with expectations. I like socketman's car analogy. Certainly it is worthwhile to make a suggestion to a developer/manufacturer for improvements on their product. The difference here in this forum is that it seems that people actually expect their suggestions to be accepted and implemented. And people appear to get upset when their suggestions are not accepted. And there is certainly some question as to whether this feature is just missing or the functionality is broken. I'm sure there are arguments to be made for both sides, but they are very different issues. Broken is a problem, missing feature is not. In the end, it is great that we have this forum to voice our opinions, and even better that Emotiva takes the time to acknowledge and in most cases accept our criticism. Well said. It think as well part of the frustration is when a suggestion is not accepted, it is not always clear whether or not the powers that be have fully understood the suggestion and the benefits of it. An example is the response from Keith in this thread referring to special multi subwoofer arrays and the XMC not being designed for that. When we are asking for improvement to the current 2 channel subwoofer out configuration. So people keep pressing for more clarity and other get tired of reading the same thing over and over and everyone gets annoyed. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 6, 2015 12:41:33 GMT -5
this sounds like a time alignment issue at the cross over between the sub and the mains. Do you have a variable phase on your sub? Tony Yes, I have variable phase 0 to 180 degrees. Also, it looks like there is an "Adjustable digital delay on main speaker line-level outputs to time-align the speakers and subs". Adjusting these are tough because there is so much trial and error without any measuring equipment. What would you suggest? I plan on getting another SVS SB13-(but this time it's called ultra) soon. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 12:45:36 GMT -5
Thank you.  The Forums are part of our "social media world" - which encourages people to feel more connected. In this case, you get to make suggestions, and we get to see what you want and why. (It's kind of the opposite of Henry Ford's supposed quote that "You can get the Model A in any color you like - as long as you like black".) However, it's still up to US to decide which features we choose to implement, based on things like what you request, and what it would cost us to do, and whether WE think that feature would be a good idea, and how we believe our customers feel about it. And you always need to bear in mind that the Forums are only a small, and sometimes somewhat isolated, part of "the whole real world". (If twenty people on the forum really want some feature, we'll probably consider it; but don't be surprised if we decide not to incorporate it because we feel that most of the other thousands of potential customers for that product aren't interested enough in it to pay the extra $10 we'd have to charge for the product to include it, or that they wouldn't be happy with the two months it would delay release of the product. In fact, don't be surprised - or insulted - if we just happen to not agree with you... it happens sometimes.) We're all FRIENDS here. If you were to visit my house, and comment that you didn't like the color I'd chosen for my living room, I'd certainly listen to you; and I might decide to take your advice, or I might not; and I might decide to explain to you why I'd chosen the color I did, or I might not; and you might then go back to your homes and have lively discussions about whether you agreed with my choice, or you might not. However, I wouldn't expect you to get mad if I chose to NOT follow your advice, and I wouldn't expect you to keep complaining about it and coming up with ever newer and better arguments about why I should paint my living room your favorite color once I'd made my choice clear. I would also hope that you would understand that my failing to repaint my living room wouldn't mean that I hadn't listened to you, or that I didn't value your advice. (And I certainly wouldn't want my friends complaining that my other friends are "dummies" or "have no taste" because they don't happen to agree about the best color.) bootman and socketman - I agree with both of you. I think the issue is with expectations. I like socketman's car analogy. Certainly it is worthwhile to make a suggestion to a developer/manufacturer for improvements on their product. The difference here in this forum is that it seems that people actually expect their suggestions to be accepted and implemented. And people appear to get upset when their suggestions are not accepted. And there is certainly some question as to whether this feature is just missing or the functionality is broken. I'm sure there are arguments to be made for both sides, but they are very different issues. Broken is a problem, missing feature is not. In the end, it is great that we have this forum to voice our opinions, and even better that Emotiva takes the time to acknowledge and in most cases accept our criticism. Well said. It think as well part of the frustration is when a suggestion is not accepted, it is not always clear whether or not the powers that be have fully understood the suggestion and the benefits of it. An example is the response from Keith in this thread referring to special multi subwoofer arrays and the XMC not being designed for that. When we are asking for improvement to the current 2 channel subwoofer out configuration. So people keep pressing for more clarity and other get tired of reading the same thing over and over and everyone gets annoyed. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Mar 6, 2015 12:56:58 GMT -5
Ok so to put my petty question to rest here is a quote from the OP on the first post on this thread. So as far as Emotiva is concerned, this is how dual subs with Dirac EQ should be used? Run them off one sub out and use a y splitter? (and for optimal results a third party device) If that is how it is written, so let it be done. (hey it's the season to break out my bluray copy of the Ten Commandments. ) |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 12:59:34 GMT -5
Nope.... I understand that one perfectly.... but there are also people asking why we can't do that same sort of thing for four subs. The short answer there (to the question about two subs) is that Dirac and the XMC-1 handle two subs the way we and Dirac think they should be handled; and the way we're doing it now works quite well for most people. The changes you're asking for are NOT trivial from a programming perspective, and our engineering department has decided that the benefits do not outweigh the costs of implementing them. In addition to that, while some people appreciate having more things they can adjust to get precisely the results they're trying to achieve, other people always seem to find the extra adjustments confusing and annoying, which means we have to spend more support time explaining them to people. You have to remember that everybody has different priorities and, sadly, we can't always make everyone totally happy. There are lots of different ways of managing subs, and lots of things that can be adjusted when you do so; we picked what we believe is the best combination for the XMC-1. (And, of course, even if your suggestions don't find their way into the XMC-1, they may end up being implemented the next time around  ) . bootman and socketman - I agree with both of you. I think the issue is with expectations. I like socketman's car analogy. Certainly it is worthwhile to make a suggestion to a developer/manufacturer for improvements on their product. The difference here in this forum is that it seems that people actually expect their suggestions to be accepted and implemented. And people appear to get upset when their suggestions are not accepted. And there is certainly some question as to whether this feature is just missing or the functionality is broken. I'm sure there are arguments to be made for both sides, but they are very different issues. Broken is a problem, missing feature is not. In the end, it is great that we have this forum to voice our opinions, and even better that Emotiva takes the time to acknowledge and in most cases accept our criticism. Well said. It think as well part of the frustration is when a suggestion is not accepted, it is not always clear whether or not the powers that be have fully understood the suggestion and the benefits of it. An example is the response from Keith in this thread referring to special multi subwoofer arrays and the XMC not being designed for that. When we are asking for improvement to the current 2 channel subwoofer out configuration. So people keep pressing for more clarity and other get tired of reading the same thing over and over and everyone gets annoyed. |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 13:08:40 GMT -5
Errr.... no.  We believe that you should connect them both to the two sub outputs on the XMC-1, and let Dirac create individual Correction Filters for them (which is what it will do). Then, if they're positioned symmetrically, you should configure them as Stereo Subs; if they're not positioned symmetrically, or you have two dissimilar subs, you should configure them as Dual Mono Subs. In most situations, and in most rooms, doing it that way will work very well - and the individually corrected subs will add together perfectly with few negative interactions. (Doing it the other way is something we would only suggest if you're NOT one of the majority of our customers - who are quite happy with the results they get when they do it the way we recommended  ). Ok so to put my petty question to rest here is a quote from the OP on the first post on this thread. So as far as Emotiva is concerned, this is how dual subs with Dirac EQ should be used? Run them off one sub out and use a y splitter? (and for optimal results a third party device) If that is how it is written, so let it be done. (hey it's the season to break out my bluray copy of the Ten Commandments. ) |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Mar 6, 2015 14:25:06 GMT -5
Errr.... no. We believe that you should connect them both to the two sub outputs on the XMC-1, and let Dirac create individual Correction Filters for them (which is what it will do). Then, if they're positioned symmetrically, you should configure them as Stereo Subs; if they're not positioned symmetrically, or you have two dissimilar subs, you should configure them as Dual Mono Subs. In most situations, and in most rooms, doing it that way will work very well - and the individually corrected subs will add together perfectly with few negative interactions. (Doing it the other way is something we would only suggest if you're NOT one of the majority of our customers - who are quite happy with the results they get when they do it the way we recommended ). I'll look at the XMC manual again, but is this recommendation in the manual? It will put a lot of questions to rest. And to make 100% sure, the full version doesn't do this any differently, correct? Thanks Keith. Al |
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Post by Lsc on Mar 6, 2015 14:31:57 GMT -5
Thanks Geebo. The thing that bothers me is that the sound changes as in bass output when I change the crossover from 50 hz to 60 hz etc. and even more when it's set to none. Shouldn't it sound exactly the same provided I keep my crossovers at low enough frequencies? For example the kick drum is much more robust when mains are set to large vs crossover at 50 hz (my setting to protect the F208 from the XPR-2 ripping it to coke cans). When I change the crossover I notice a change in the quality of the bass but not the quantity. When you set to Large are you also using Enhanced Bass? And do you have an SPL you can check levels with? You can always go into the Dirac preset and change the Sub level to taste. It's more quantity than quality for me. The quality is always very good . No, I never use enhanced bass because I need to protect the F208 from the XPR-2. I do have a new Radio Shack digital spl. What am I measuring...test tones at different frequencies? I think it's what Ansat said, probably a phase / delay issue, since my 1 sub is in a corner and my F208s are 4 feet from the back wall, 2 feet from the side walls. This is why I don't understand how you can have independent test tones for the main and the sub - and it doesn't factor in the interaction between them when the mains are set to small. Maybe it does and I'm missing the big picture. The Theta Casanova has these 3 crossovers in the unit, phase perfect, butterworth, linkwitz-riley and you can choose the phase to be inverted for the sub signal. I think there are controls for delays too but i'm not sure. Point is, I wonder what kind of crossover is in the XMC-1 because it's quite good. Everything is pretty darn good from a sound quality standpoint on the XMC-1. |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 14:41:49 GMT -5
I'm not sure if the manual covered the recommended settings there in detail - or whether we just left it up to you. Dirac Live Full DOES handle the subs the same way as Dirac Live LE - with one subtle distinction... In both versions, each sub is measured separately, and each has a separate Correction Filter calculated for it - based on those measurements and the Target Curve. However, in the LE version, the speaker groups are locked - so both Correction Filters will be calculated using the default Target Curve. (Remember that, even with the same Target Curve, since the measurements for each will be different, the Correction Filters will also be different.) In the Full version, you can change whether both subs are in the same group or not; if they're in one group you'll be able to create a custom Target Curve for that group; if you assign them to be in separate groups, you will be able to create a separate new Target Curve for each (and the Target Curves can be different). Errr.... no. We believe that you should connect them both to the two sub outputs on the XMC-1, and let Dirac create individual Correction Filters for them (which is what it will do). Then, if they're positioned symmetrically, you should configure them as Stereo Subs; if they're not positioned symmetrically, or you have two dissimilar subs, you should configure them as Dual Mono Subs. In most situations, and in most rooms, doing it that way will work very well - and the individually corrected subs will add together perfectly with few negative interactions. (Doing it the other way is something we would only suggest if you're NOT one of the majority of our customers - who are quite happy with the results they get when they do it the way we recommended ). I'll look at the XMC manual again, but is this recommendation in the manual? It will put a lot of questions to rest. And to make 100% sure, the full version doesn't do this any differently, correct? Thanks Keith. Al |
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Post by KeithL on Mar 6, 2015 14:53:35 GMT -5
The way you adjust two speakers to be in phase at a particular frequency is to play a test tone at that frequency through both and adjust things so you get the maximum sound level from that test tone. Note: 1) This won't necessarily make anything flat; but "in phase" will always occur at the point where you get the maximum output. Once you set that, then use the sub level and crossover adjustments to get a flat response from both. 2) Phase is related to the delay between each speaker and the listening position, so you are adjusting them to be in phase relative to one specific listening position. 3) Many speakers (virtually all) have phase shifts that vary with frequency; if you're setting a sub to be in phase with a main, then you want to do so at the frequency where they cross over to ensure a smooth transition (and no cancellation notch). 4) If you have two different types of subs, they may each experience different shifts in phase at various frequencies, in which case you may not be able to have them be in phase with each other at all frequencies. In that case, I would personally adjust them to be in phase at the approximate center of their frequency range, but there are also good arguments for adjusting them to be in phase with your main speakers and each other at the crossover point. (You should experiment, since which gives the flattest overall response is going to depend on too many things to figure it out reliably any other way.) this sounds like a time alignment issue at the cross over between the sub and the mains. Do you have a variable phase on your sub? Tony Yes, I have variable phase 0 to 180 degrees. Also, it looks like there is an "Adjustable digital delay on main speaker line-level outputs to time-align the speakers and subs". Adjusting these are tough because there is so much trial and error without any measuring equipment. What would you suggest? I plan on getting another SVS SB13-(but this time it's called ultra) soon. |
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Post by geebo on Mar 6, 2015 14:56:42 GMT -5
When I change the crossover I notice a change in the quality of the bass but not the quantity. When you set to Large are you also using Enhanced Bass? And do you have an SPL you can check levels with? You can always go into the Dirac preset and change the Sub level to taste. It's more quantity than quality for me. The quality is always very good . No, I never use enhanced bass because I need to protect the F208 from the XPR-2. I do have a new Radio Shack digital spl. What am I measuring...test tones at different frequencies? I think it's what Ansat said, probably a phase / delay issue, since my 1 sub is in a corner and my F208s are 4 feet from the back wall, 2 feet from the side walls. This is why I don't understand how you can have independent test tones for the main and the sub - and it doesn't factor in the interaction between them when the mains are set to small. Maybe it does and I'm missing the big picture. The Theta Casanova has these 3 crossovers in the unit, phase perfect, butterworth, linkwitz-riley and you can choose the phase to be inverted for the sub signal. I think there are controls for delays too but i'm not sure. Point is, I wonder what kind of crossover is in the XMC-1 because it's quite good. Everything is pretty darn good from a sound quality standpoint on the XMC-1. You can go into the Dirac preset and find Levels (Setup > Speakers > Dirac > Levels). When you go into levels a tone will play in whichever speaker you select. Select each one in turn checking the output level of each. Adjust them to all be the same using the up/down controls on the remote. Feel free to tweak any of them if you desire such as the subwoofer level. |
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bootman
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Post by bootman on Mar 6, 2015 16:26:09 GMT -5
I'm not sure if the manual covered the recommended settings there in detail - or whether we just left it up to you. Dirac Live Full DOES handle the subs the same way as Dirac Live LE - with one subtle distinction... In both versions, each sub is measured separately, and each has a separate Correction Filter calculated for it - based on those measurements and the Target Curve. However, in the LE version, the speaker groups are locked - so both Correction Filters will be calculated using the default Target Curve. (Remember that, even with the same Target Curve, since the measurements for each will be different, the Correction Filters will also be different.) In the Full version, you can change whether both subs are in the same group or not; if they're in one group you'll be able to create a custom Target Curve for that group; if you assign them to be in separate groups, you will be able to create a separate new Target Curve for each (and the Target Curves can be different). Excellent information here. thank you again. |
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Post by socketman on Mar 6, 2015 17:31:54 GMT -5
Nope.... I understand that one perfectly.... but there are also people asking why we can't do that same sort of thing for four subs. The short answer there (to the question about two subs) is that Dirac and the XMC-1 handle two subs the way we and Dirac think they should be handled; and the way we're doing it now works quite well for most people. The changes you're asking for are NOT trivial from a programming perspective, and our engineering department has decided that the benefits do not outweigh the costs of implementing them. In addition to that, while some people appreciate having more things they can adjust to get precisely the results they're trying to achieve, other people always seem to find the extra adjustments confusing and annoying, which means we have to spend more support time explaining them to people. You have to remember that everybody has different priorities and, sadly, we can't always make everyone totally happy. There are lots of different ways of managing subs, and lots of things that can be adjusted when you do so; we picked what we believe is the best combination for the XMC-1. (And, of course, even if your suggestions don't find their way into the XMC-1, they may end up being implemented the next time around ) . Well said. It think as well part of the frustration is when a suggestion is not accepted, it is not always clear whether or not the powers that be have fully understood the suggestion and the benefits of it. An example is the response from Keith in this thread referring to special multi subwoofer arrays and the XMC not being designed for that. When we are asking for improvement to the current 2 channel subwoofer out configuration. So people keep pressing for more clarity and other get tired of reading the same thing over and over and everyone gets annoyed. Keith What about having a poll for implementation of different features and see who does and does not want said feature then do a Paid Firmware upgrade scenario. For the record I am not against what is being asked for in this thread. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 6, 2015 21:22:49 GMT -5
Keith What about having a poll for implementation of different features and see who does and does not want said feature then do a Paid Firmware upgrade scenario. For the record I am not against what is being asked for in this thread. Are you on the Emotiva payroll?  . But seriously what you are asking is what business software clients do. They ask for certain features and pay for it but things are more custom in this world vs. a consumer good. I like the free firmware upgrade and continued support, but that's just me . I liked Keith's response as well. They get our feedback which may or may not be helpful...and produce products for the good of the many vs. the good of the few. Makes perfect sense. The firmware update will be nice...the little pause/unpause blips are getting a little bit annoying. |
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Post by socketman on Mar 6, 2015 21:30:20 GMT -5
Keith What about having a poll for implementation of different features and see who does and does not want said feature then do a Paid Firmware upgrade scenario. For the record I am not against what is being asked for in this thread. Are you on the Emotiva payroll? . But seriously what you are asking is what business software clients do. They ask for certain features and pay for it but things are more custom in this world vs. a consumer good. I like the free firmware upgrade and continued support, but that's just me . I liked Keith's response as well. They get our feedback which may or may not be helpful...and produce products for the good of the many vs. the good of the few. Makes perfect sense. The firmware update will be nice...the little pause/unpause blips are getting a little bit annoying. Sometimes things just pop into my head and I run with it. What I got from Keith's comments were that to do what is asked for in this thread would require a lot of coding which equal time which equals money. Since this in my mind is an extra , like adding options at the car dealer I thought maybe a little cash would grease the wheels. I suspect the market for this upgrade is limited and the only way is to get a minidsp. |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Mar 6, 2015 22:54:42 GMT -5
Sometimes things just pop into my head and I run with it. What I got from Keith's comments were that to do what is asked for in this thread would require a lot of coding which equal time which equals money. Since this in my mind is an extra , like adding options at the car dealer I thought maybe a little cash would grease the wheels. I suspect the market for this upgrade is limited and the only way is to get a minidsp. I agree with you that it's limited. I'd suspect that most people don't have 3 or more subs and I've yet to see a pre pro that has more than 2 subwoofer outputs. The support for multiple subs can be a viable add-on since it's not something everyone wants or needs. Unfortunately, like you said minidsp handles this pretty well for very little cost. |
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