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Post by jcam2881 on Jan 14, 2015 20:21:05 GMT -5
The loudest live concert I have heard personally was ACDC on the Back in Black tour in 1981, outdoors in Sydney. They were measured at 130 dB by the acoustic engineer, who if I remember rightly was about 30 metres from the stage. On the way home in the car a couple of hours later I couldn't hear the passengers talking due to the temporary deafness. Before that Deep Purple at a 1972 concert in the Rainbow Theatre in London made almost 120 dB, a Guinness Book record at the time. I recall that Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love was breathtakingly loud at their Sydney concert also in 1972 and outdoors. I was off side to the stage with the other roadies and even then it was make your eyes water loud. I still recall that acoustic engineer saying to me something like "that's 30 db above the level for permanent deafness" as he straightened up his over ear hearing protection, he had ear plugs in as well. Cheers Gary Seriously jealous... Sounds like a lot of fun! At 35 my experiences in both those cities were sort of boring work related w a little bit of wine and champagne drunkeness at some night clubs. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 14, 2015 20:33:54 GMT -5
The loudest live concert I have heard personally was ACDC on the Back in Black tour in 1981, outdoors in Sydney. They were measured at 130 dB by the acoustic engineer, who if I remember rightly was about 30 metres from the stage. On the way home in the car a couple of hours later I couldn't hear the passengers talking due to the temporary deafness. Before that Deep Purple at a 1972 concert in the Rainbow Theatre in London made almost 120 dB, a Guinness Book record at the time. I recall that Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love was breathtakingly loud at their Sydney concert also in 1972 and outdoors. I was off side to the stage with the other roadies and even then it was make your eyes water loud. I still recall that acoustic engineer saying to me something like "that's 30 db above the level for permanent deafness" as he straightened up his over ear hearing protection, he had ear plugs in as well. Seriously jealous... Sounds like a lot of fun! At 35 my experiences in both those cities were sort of boring work related w a little bit of wine and champagne drunkeness at some night clubs. I actually have very little recollection of the Led Zeppelin concert in Sydney. A mate of mine at the time was a roady for the whole tour and I hitched a ride into the showground in the back of the sound truck with all the gear. We set up early in the morning and I didn't eat or drink anything until the sound and light guys turned up with a wooden crate full of bottles of Jim Beam. Needless to say by the time Zep started to play I was not in very good condition. It's all a bit vague and misty, a truly dumb move because I didn't get another chance to see them live. I have never made that mistake again, once in a lifetime chances should not be underestimated. Cheers Gary |
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 15, 2015 23:22:49 GMT -5
Well, I received the amps and just had to start playing around. I only connected one XPA-3, to my high frequency drivers. I left the mids/lows on the Crowns. Two quick notes...
The input levels are pretty "hot." It only needs 1.1v for full output. The XMC-1 provides up to 11v from the balanced outputs. The background hiss I thought the XPA-3 would get rid of has actually gotten quite worse. I will need to do some homework on lowering the output of my MiniDSP and/or padding it down in line with the XPA-1.
The XPA-3 is out of phase with my Crown amps. I had to invert the phase of my highs (running off the XPA-3) to match up with the mids/lows (running off my Crowns). I guess I'll spend some time this weekend figuring out which one is actually "right."
At first listen, it sounds different. That is all I can say. Before I figured out the phase thing, I definitely didn't like them, as there was a big hole at the crossover frequency.
I'm not sure I will be able to mix the amps, because I think there is still a slight phase shift between the two amps. I may be able to partially correct it with the MiniDSP delay and/or crossover type settings. I usually use the 24db per octave Butterworth, but the Linkwitz Riley may have sounded better.
I'll get the other XPA connected over the weekend and see how things come together.
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Post by bolle on Jan 16, 2015 2:51:57 GMT -5
Interesting that you hear that phase shift too. I also had to remeasure when I switched from my 7-350 to the new digital amps I am currently using because the crossover between subs and speakers was messed up.
I am looking forward to the rest of your report! :-)
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 19, 2015 13:38:47 GMT -5
Well, I spent most of the weekend "playing" with my system.
So far, I'm not that impressed with the XPA-3's. I don't feel they are much of an upgrade from the Crown XLS-1500's. I was expecting a much warmer sound.
I did a lot of two channel listening with the digital out of my Oppo-103D direct to my MiniDSP running 24/96 to the two XPA's. It took a while, but I finally got the levels balanced between the lows and highs. When I finally felt it was as good as it was going to get, I switched to multi-channel listening.
For some reason, there seems to be a phase shift on the center channel's high frequency output. I don't notice it on the other amplifier, powering the center low frequencies.
I have still not been able to actually measure the absolute phase of each amplifier channel, so I can't verify the technical reason for what I am hearing.
In general, on very familiar concert Blu-ray's playing DTS Master Audio, the center is lacking. Kind of "falling back" from the L&R instead of coming forward. If I invert the phase on the center channel horns, it seems better, but still not "right." Until I find the solution, the Crown amps sound far better in multi-channel.
One other small issue is the actual height of the XPA-3's. They are a bit taller than 4-RU. I was able to mount the two in the bottom of my rack, but nothing could be mounted in the space directly above them. They are about 3/16" too tall.
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 19, 2015 14:32:37 GMT -5
I am not familiar with Crown amps. Basically because they were trashed in audiophile circles.
Trey
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Post by pedrocols on Jan 19, 2015 14:39:57 GMT -5
I am not familiar with Crown amps. Basically because they were trashed in audiophile circles. Trey So are Emotiva amps. |
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 19, 2015 23:29:11 GMT -5
Yeah, it was Jackfish who turned me on the Emotiva on the Stereophile website.
Trey
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Post by bolle on Jan 20, 2015 0:27:23 GMT -5
I am not familiar with Crown amps. Basically because they were trashed in audiophile circles. Trey Link? Seems like you know different audiophile circles than me. The XLS have quite a good Reputation regarding SQ for home Cinema and Studio work / Monitoring. |
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 20, 2015 10:57:51 GMT -5
Link? Dude, I don't have a link. I just recall Crown being dismissed as crappy sounding pro gear, no specific models, just what I recall. I doubt I am the only person who has heard this. I heard that Emotiva was low priced junk too, but my ears told me different! But ask or search around, you will find that Crown is trashed in some circles.
Now this is not me trashing gear I never heard, just explaining why I never heard them. I am not trying to harsh your buzz, if you love Crown gear, super!
Trey
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 20, 2015 11:01:20 GMT -5
I got your link right here, and a quote. "Of course, nothing's perfect. Crown's Achilles heel has always been the sound. The old amps sounded mercilessly bright and glassy—not exactly an audiophile's dream." From www.stereophile.com/content/crown-macro-reference-power-amplifier-lewis-lipnickIf you are interested in verifying my report, which sounds like a boring task to me, you could follow up and do the google and see what I mean. I found that one in the first page of the first search. Happy hunting, if that is what you want to do! Trey |
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 20, 2015 15:34:32 GMT -5
Personally, I really like the Crown XLS amplifiers. Once again, sound "quality" is VERY personal. I'm not trying to argue my position, but there are a few facts to point out. The article in the link is 20+ years old and refers to an extinct Crown model. The XLS amps, especially the 1500, 200 and 2500, are a completely different breed. Not that I need an article to support what I have heard with my own ears, but here is a fairly good one... forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/crown-amplifiers-vs-other-amps-in-the-audiophile-world.84943/If you search for XLS series amps, articles like the one above are fairly common, especially when home theater is involved. Here is a thread I referenced quite a bit before purchasing my first XLS... www.hometheaterequipment.com/mono-stereo-amps-59/crown-audio-xls-drivecore-series-amplifier-official-thread-1319/I only post these links to show others who may be considering a "pro" amp, that I am not the only yo-yo who thinks they sound good. I also wanted to "refresh" the references from other sources. I have both sets of amps in my listening room. My ears tell me a lot more than an article can. Trey, I'm NOT discounting your link, or other opinions you have found online. I'm sure to their ears, with the Crown amps tested, they preferred the other "audiophile" amplifiers. I may have disliked those amps, in those setups, myself. I am only after what sounds good to me, in my current setup. I purchased my first XLS-1500 as an inexpensive power upgrade for a Yamaha RX-V1065 receiver. It was powering a set of Klipsch RF-62's. I needed something with RCA inputs, a good amount of power and a reasonable price. I did a bit of research on various sites/forums to see what others were using. In the past few years, there are a LOT of home theater guys switching to "pro" amplifiers. In the end, I was shocked at how good the Crown sounded. That is why I purchased three more. I had these exact same speakers on an Adcom GFA-555 a few years ago. The XLS-1500 had the Klipsch's sounding as good as I can remember, maybe better. This is using the same demo tracks, in the same room. I can't say this enough, this is only MY opinion, nothing else. Over the years, I have had the privilege of hearing some of the finest audio equipment in the world. I have spent time with people like Gayle Martin Sanders and Dan D'Agostino. I have heard both of their personal systems, in their homes. We were the largest Krell and Martin Logan dealers in the world, B&W too! I remember the sound of the ML Statements on four Krell FPB-600's in one of our showrooms. It was a sound like no other. I've been to CES and heard all the crazy gazillion dollar setups. I consider the CES systems a "stacked" deck and don't consider myself an expert on the way they sounded. Hearing a system for 15 minutes, while certainly better than reading about it, does not give you the chance to really get to know the sound. I have a certain set of tracks I use when I demo gear. I know the details of each one. To me that is the only way to have a fair comparison. This does NOT mean that my ears are any better than anyone else's. It simply means that I have a lot of experience hearing different types of gear and recognizing what I like, or dislike, about it. If money was no object, I would not be using Crown XLS (or Emotiva) amplifiers. I would also have two separate systems (2ch and theater), in two separate rooms. However, money IS an object. I am lucky enough to have a pretty good basement to build my system in, but it all must be in the same room. I started this thread to see what others have personally experienced in similar scenarios. I appreciate all the experiences that were shared. I was kinda hoping that there would be another amplifier line suggested by someone with first hand experience. As it stands, I have spent many hours listening to the two XPA-3's compared to the three XLS-1500's. In two channel, I'm pretty sure I have dialed in the XPA's as much as possible. At normal listening levels, they sound "different" than the Crowns, not really better or worse. At higher volumes, the Crowns have a bit more "attack" in the mid-bass and sound a bit more "effortless" in the delivery. In the defense of the Emotivas, using a 24/96 .flac, or from vinyl, the staging is a bit more "placed" on the XPA's. Using tracks I know very well, I can "see" the instruments a bit clearer when I am in the sweet spot and really concentrating. However, we are talking about a scenario that represents less than 1% of my actual listening. I haven't thrown in the towel yet. I really want to like the Emotiva amps. They look really good in my rack! I have a lot of time invested as well. If I decide to return them, it is going to cost me at least $100 in shipping and a few hours to put everything back. I'm still having the "phase" issue on my center channel. If that can't get fixed, the XPA's are going back. I may try swapping the two XPA's to see if the issue moves to the center LF driver. If it does, Emotiva has a QC issue and one XPA will go back for replacement before I make my final decision. |
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Post by drtrey3 on Jan 20, 2015 16:28:53 GMT -5
I hope that Crown is voicing their amps better as I have nothing against them or anyone. 8)
And in fact I did hear a Crown amp way back in the day, think 1975-1978. One was used at my High School for plays and such. I was not versed in good sound at that time, but I do recall a strident quality to the treble. May have been setup, may have been the amp.
I have no beef with Crown, as I said, I have not heard one in years. But I have not been interested because of the internet buzz. It sounds like the internet buzz has changed. Isn't that wonderful! Having said all that, it is weird to be called out for verification for stuff you read on the internet.
Not that you did that ekg.
Trey
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2015 0:56:15 GMT -5
"........The 1500 actually had a very noisy fan, maybe just a one off as it was a demo unit."
Cheers
Gary
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I've been using 3 XLS1500's to power a 4 ohm speaker system for over 2 years now. I have never heard even once the fans come on on these amps. What's also wild is that I do what is ordinarily a "no no" and that is run all 3 amps from the same outlet. Actually, all 3 are plugged into a APC H15 power conditioner (I know, another "no no" lol). But in watching the clip indicator lights on the APC, never once has running all 3 amps clipped it. Shows the amazing power efficiency of Class D amps
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 22, 2015 17:22:10 GMT -5
I've been using 3 XLS1500's to power a 4 ohm speaker system for over 2 years now. I have never heard even once the fans come on on these amps. What's also wild is that I do what is ordinarily a "no no" and that is run all 3 amps from the same outlet. Actually, all 3 are plugged into a APC H15 power conditioner (I know, another "no no" lol). But in watching the clip indicator lights on the APC, never once has running all 3 amps clipped it. Shows the amazing power efficiency of Class D amps The fans don't run? Or they do run but you can't hear them? I was using the 1500 as a sub woofer amp, 17" driver that's nominally 4 ohms but dips to around 2 ohms. About 4 minutes into Pacific Rim, after some action there's a quiet interval and...... the fan kicks in ......... BRRRRRR
Cheers Gary |
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 23, 2015 14:03:14 GMT -5
I have never heard the fans in any of my XLS amps. My 1500's are each powering a 4-ohm 12" and a 8-ohm compression driver. They are VERY efficient, so the XLS's are not getting close to "full" output. My 2500 is bridged, powering a 4-ohm Dayton Ultimax 18". At fairly high listening levels, it will light the red LED's on bass peaks. I listen to music and movies pretty load, so I'm sure it has been pushed pretty hard at times. I have never heard the fan on it either. Keep in mind, it could easily be masked by the system volume if/when it gets loud. I'm sure the fans get used more in true "pro" situations where they are sustaining their full power for longer period of time. However, the new Behringer iNuke NU4-6000 sounds like a jet plane even at idle. I was hoping it would power my rears, not unless I change the fans. I did change the fan on my Behringer Europower 304. It is much quieter now. Here is a photo showing the latest stage in my quest for sound.  |
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Post by jmontoya21 on Mar 23, 2015 1:33:33 GMT -5
Thank you for starting this thread and sharing your findings on this test your doing. I took interest in the Crown XLS line after seeing Andrew Robinson reviews on line, so much that I spent all my spare moments I had this weekend searching for reviews and first hand accounts on these amps. for the looks of it they look like the real deal, I now must try these on my Tekton Lore's and your thread confirms this. please don't get discouraged from updating for findings. although since your signature hasn't changed,it looks like the Crown amps are staying? Here is a photo showing the latest stage in my quest for sound. [/quote] |
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Post by danny01 on Mar 23, 2015 2:42:26 GMT -5
I have an XLS2000 driving my subs. For the first time today I tried the Crown to drive the mains. It was surprising how good the Crown sounds. I am actually thinking about getting an XLS1500 to replace the UPA-2. Some audiophiles crap on the Crowns for being a "pro" amp that's all brawn and no finesse. Others(including those owning speakers in the 5 figure range) swear by them.
The only thing that bugs me is the lack of a 12v trigger.
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Post by vcautokid on Mar 23, 2015 5:06:40 GMT -5
I guess I could never get why anyone would listen at 130dB. The damage to your ears certainly isn't worth it. That is only 10dB shy of a Boeing 747 taking off with 4 Pratt and Whitney Turbofans at full song. Maybe I am not getting something here.
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Post by pedrocols on Mar 23, 2015 8:24:44 GMT -5
I guess I could never get why anyone would listen at 130dB. The damage to your ears certainly isn't worth it. That is only 10dB shy of a Boeing 747 taking off with 4 Pratt and Whitney Turbofans at full song. Maybe I am not getting something here. Maybe for the same reason people think mega watt amps are better than amps with fewer power. Most people need only a few watts for normal listening but they insist on getting amps with tons of watts. Go figure... |
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