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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 12, 2015 16:51:17 GMT -5
I have been running three Crown XLS-1500's on my LCR for the past year. I must say, I fell in love with the almost limitless power available.
My LCR's are all bi-amped using a MiniDSP 10x4 to correct everything. They are VERY efficient and very clean.
In the past, I owned some Adcom 555's, 565's as well as some B&K Reference amplifiers. I really liked the MOSFET sound and I was really surprised that I like the Crown XLS's so much.
I wanted to try a "cleaner" amp on my 1khz+ horns. I thought about finding an old 3 channel Adcom, but the XPA-3 is about the same as a used Adcom.
Today, I ended up ordering two XPA-3's. I almost ordered three XPA-2's, but they were a bit more than I wanted to spend for an upgrade at this time.
Once they arrive, I will try the two against my three Crowns. I am also thinking about trying the three Crowns bridged to the three 12" woofers and one of the XPA-3's on the horns.
I see a lot of you guys using some older equipment. Can anyone compare the sound of an XPA-3 to an old Adcom or B&K?
Has anyone actually "upgraded" from Crown XLS's to the XPA's?
I'd love to end up with (6) XPA-1L's. Three running A/B on the 12's and three running class A on the horns. However, that is out of the question for now. But, maybe within my 30 day period!
I wanted to get some dialog going about this to see what others had experienced.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 12, 2015 17:43:25 GMT -5
Has anyone actually "upgraded" from Crown XLS's to the XPA's I upgraded from a Crown 1000 (bridged 1100 watts) to an XPA-100 (400 watts) for my DIY sub woofer. Not a lot of difference for movies, a little cleaner with the same amount of punch, slam, impact. But for music a noticeable improvement, so much cleaner and clearer, not at all subtle. Up until them I was considering a change in the driver to achieve some more "musicality" but the amp swap negated that requirement. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 12, 2015 17:58:28 GMT -5
I love those Crowns. I was in a few rock bands over the years and they are great amps to run a PA. Big power!
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 12, 2015 22:10:41 GMT -5
I love those Crowns. I was in a few rock bands over the years and they are great amps to run a PA. Big power! There are a LOT of DIY audiophiles that swear by the XLS amps. I have to say, they totally impressed me. For 15 years, I worked at a company called Sound Advice in FL. They were kind of like Magnolia on the west coast until Tweeter bought them (Sound Advice) out. My last couple of years there, I was the home audio merchandising manger (buyer). Our main "high-end" lines were B&W, Krell, Martin Logan, etc. I went to CES and heard some of the best systems money can buy. We often set up $100k+ systems. The point is that I have a pretty good ear and have a LOT of amps to compare them to. In the end, for less than $500 each, the XLS-1500 blew me away. I had it running a pair of Klipsch reference speakers off a Yamaha receiver in my theater. I saw no reason to spend any more money. Even after greatly upgrading everything else in my system, I just purchased more Crown XLS amps. Buying these two XPA-3's is basically an experiment. If they sound a good amount better to me, I may look into some other Emotiva amp combinations. The only things I dislike about the amps is that they have no remote turn on and a bit of hiss on my VERY efficient (111db 1w/1m) horn drivers. |
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 12, 2015 22:17:22 GMT -5
Has anyone actually "upgraded" from Crown XLS's to the XPA's I upgraded from a Crown 1000 (bridged 1100 watts) to an XPA-100 (400 watts) for my DIY sub woofer. Not a lot of difference for movies, a little cleaner with the same amount of punch, slam, impact. But for music a noticeable improvement, so much cleaner and clearer, not at all subtle. Up until them I was considering a change in the driver to achieve some more "musicality" but the amp swap negated that requirement. Cheers Gary Gary, Thank you for the input. From what I understand, the XLS-1000 does not have the same sonic characteristics of the other amps in the series. That said, I'm still hoping to have a similar "upgrade" in sound quality that you have experienced. I'm also hoping that my vinyl will get a bit of more warmth from true A/B amps. Thanks again. |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 12, 2015 22:44:09 GMT -5
I upgraded from a Crown 1000 (bridged 1100 watts) to an XPA-100 (400 watts) for my DIY sub woofer. Not a lot of difference for movies, a little cleaner with the same amount of punch, slam, impact. But for music a noticeable improvement, so much cleaner and clearer, not at all subtle. Up until them I was considering a change in the driver to achieve some more "musicality" but the amp swap negated that requirement. Gary, Thank you for the input. From what I understand, the XLS-1000 does not have the same sonic characteristics of the other amps in the series. That said, I'm still hoping to have a similar "upgrade" in sound quality that you have experienced. I'm also hoping that my vinyl will get a bit of more warmth from true A/B amps. Thanks again. Due to past experience in live sound I have a friendly local source of pro amps and I tried almost the entire XLS range when I was looking for a new sub woofer amp last year. I gave the 1000, 1500 and 2000 a run for a few days each, I didn't try the 2500, I figured it was a bit of an overkill for my set up. I didn't really notice any difference between them, bridged or unbridged, they all had plenty of grunt and hardly raised a sweat. Even unbridged (350 watts) the 1000 had plenty of power for my uses. The 1500 actually had a very noisy fan, maybe just a one off as it was a demo unit. Cheers Gary |
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Post by Porscheguy on Jan 13, 2015 6:09:12 GMT -5
I was in Fenway Park (Boston Red Sox) some years ago and happen to be able to see their PA power which was a rack full of Crown amps the size of a refrigerator. Pretty impressive.. At least 20,000 watts
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Post by bolle on Jan 13, 2015 7:07:44 GMT -5
I actually think XLS -> XPA-3 is more of a downgrade than an upgrade - but that is just my personal opinion.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 13, 2015 10:52:25 GMT -5
Just my personal impressions: I've heard the XLS and compared them to an XPA-5. The Crown has its own sound signature which mainly revolves around an interesting treble sound. Driving speakers that are somewhat demanding the crown basically lacks in low end reproduction (tried on my axiom m80 V2).
The treble sound makes everything sound very clean which on entry level to moderate sound systems actually sounds really nice. It allows the sound to feel like it's coming from a very black background. But after listening on more resolving setups, it becomes obvious that the black background is simply obscuring some subtle details. So the blackness is an illusion of ommission. However it is a nice illusion.
Compared to an XPA-5, the XPA-5 sounds slightly duller and that's because of the crown's treble reproduction. But in the end, the XPA-5 is the better amp - especially when driven by a decent pre-amp. In the end the deal breaker for me, is that even though the Crown had a very nice sound - almost tube like (but not quite), it didn't have that natural tone and basically felt just a wee bit artificial compared to the XPA-5.
Now depending on the resolving capabilities (or sound signature) of the speakers, it is possible to prefer the crown.
For instance we tried it on a set of def tech sm55 which were pretty nice, and I found myself really liking the crown's reproduction vs an XPA-2. Though I also really liked the XPA-2. The deftechs are also much easier to drive than the Axioms (which are 4 ohm nominal) so that probably helped the crowns.
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 13, 2015 11:55:39 GMT -5
I actually think XLS -> XPA-3 is more of a downgrade than an upgrade - but that is just my personal opinion. I am VERY afraid this may be the case. However, I felt I needed to hear it for myself. When "digital" amplifiers were first being released, Infinity had a series of car amps which (sonicly) sounded very harsh on mids and highs vs the big MOSFET's of the day, possibly 1990. I know digital amplification has come a long way since then, but I wanted to hear the difference for myself. If it wasn't for the background hiss and the lack of remote turn on, I may not have wanted to test the XPA's. |
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Post by danny01 on Jan 13, 2015 12:42:26 GMT -5
garbulky What do you mean by demanding? Do you mean low impedance? Impedance swings? My speakers are 4 ohm minimal and 4 ohm nominal, but I wouldn't say they are a demanding load. The Crowns will drive lower impedance speakers to high power levels than an XPA-2 or UPA-2. I wouldn't use an Emotiva amp to drive 2 ohm nominal loads, especially subs. But I wouldn't hesistate using a Crown XLS When driving low impedances, Class D is your friend. I bought my Crown XLS2000 used from boom, so it might very well be the one you heard. Sent from my HTC6500LVW using proboards
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 13, 2015 13:05:44 GMT -5
I should add that my approach to my home theater is most likely very different from anyone else's. Everybody has a certain "sound" they are looking for. Like the perfect car, the "perfect" sound is very subjective. Not only is there Ford vs. Chevy, there is also Ferrari, Bentley, Land Rover, Jeep (my favorite) and countless others. What makes it "perfect" is very specific to the person.
Not only did I spend quite a few years in the high-end audio world, I also spent time DJ'ing, mixing live sound and in recording studios. I love the dynamics of a LOT of power and speakers that can utilize it. Most studios and live events use horns. I find I like the sound of horns, because they sound like the studio/event. On the retail side, we had a few showrooms using B&W 801N's on Krell FPB-600's. I remember them needing dedicated electrical circuits on each of them. Basically, the 801's had unlimited power available to them. (side note: the name Krell is from Star Trek with a meaning of "unlimited power") The sound was awesome, but still limited. I used to regularly blow tweeters on the 801's during my personal listening sessions.
In most "pro" systems, you will not find passive crossovers and mid-bass is usually handled by surprisingly large drivers. For me, all these things all part of the "perfect" sound. When a snare drum is hit, I want my eyes to blink, just like it would live. That just can't be done using a few 6"-8" drivers on a couple hundred watts of power. No matter how good a sub is, it can't supply the mid-bass attack I'm looking for.
My LCR's are based loosely on the Econowave design many DIY audiophiles have been working with. My choice of drivers took a while to settle on. I really wanted to use JBL's, but they seem to need a bit more room to be appreciated. The Radian 475PB's on the QSC horns are one of the most musical combo's I have heard that still have the dynamics of live sound. I did deaden the horns with about 5 pounds of lead shot on each one, eliminating any ringing from the horn body itself. After playing with a few different passive crossover designs, I tried the XLS built in crossovers, a "modded" Behringer 2496 electronic and settled on the MiniDSP 10x4. This setup gives me full 24/96 resolution, on really good DAC's, for two channel and 24/48 for theater use. It also allowed me to really dial in the sub-woofer, so that it completely disappears in music listening.
I also have a decent vinyl collection and setup. I hope to have one system for everything and it is pretty close now. We will see if the XPA-3's help or hurt my big picture plan. I'm really looking forward to trying the three 1500's bridged on the 12's and the XPA-3 on the horns. I may just need to get a small tube amp for my old Klipsch speakers as a dedicated analog system.
Now that I have bored everyone with the details of my build, I'll just wait for the XPA's to arrive.
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Post by garbulky on Jan 13, 2015 13:26:01 GMT -5
garbulky What do you mean by demanding? Do you mean low impedance? Impedance swings? My speakers are 4 ohm minimal and 4 ohm nominal, but I wouldn't say they are a demanding load. The Crowns will drive lower impedance speakers to high power levels than an XPA-2 or UPA-2. I wouldn't use an Emotiva amp to drive 2 ohm nominal loads, especially subs. But I wouldn't hesistate using a Crown XLS When driving low impedances, Class D is your friend. I bought my Crown XLS2000 used from boom, so it might very well be the one you heard. Sent from my HTC6500LVW using proboards Ummm well...it's hard to say what about it is demanding. But if I had to guess it would be a combination of impedance swings and having to drive a large number of drivers. My speakers have a total of twelve drivers a pair which may have something to do with it. With it the crown had trouble on the bass pushing through a strained sounding reproduction of the mids and treble. The emotiva amps on the other hand had no issues but overall sounded slightly less lively (due to the crown's treble signature).  |
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Post by eurorom on Jan 13, 2015 14:39:38 GMT -5
Just my personal impressions: I've heard the XLS and compared them to an XPA-5. The Crown has its own sound signature which mainly revolves around an interesting treble sound. Driving speakers that are somewhat demanding the crown basically lacks in low end reproduction (tried on my axiom m80 V2). The treble sound makes everything sound very clean which on entry level to moderate sound systems actually sounds really nice. It allows the sound to feel like it's coming from a very black background. But after listening on more resolving setups, it becomes obvious that the black background is simply obscuring some subtle details. So the blackness is an illusion of ommission. However it is a nice illusion. Compared to an XPA-5, the XPA-5 sounds slightly duller and that's because of the crown's treble reproduction. But in the end, the XPA-5 is the better amp - especially when driven by a decent pre-amp. In the end the deal breaker for me, is that even though the Crown had a very nice sound - almost tube like (but not quite), it didn't have that natural tone and basically felt just a wee bit artificial compared to the XPA-5. Now depending on the resolving capabilities (or sound signature) of the speakers, it is possible to prefer the crown. For instance we tried it on a set of def tech sm55 which were pretty nice, and I found myself really liking the crown's reproduction vs an XPA-2. Though I also really liked the XPA-2. The deftechs are also much easier to drive than the Axioms (which are 4 ohm nominal) so that probably helped the crowns. I like you have been using some JBL 4430 Studio Monitors on my Music system and have been using Carver amplifiers for the horns and ADCOM 555 for the bottoms, I like to play my system at live levels and I have found that JBL is the only speaker that do not compress they just keep on going! In my home theater I have Niles Stagefront all around and I found them to be the best speakers for my movie needs! I will keep and eye on your experiences and thoughts of the Emo Amplifiers! Oh! and Crown XLS I heard so many good things on these amplifiers that I am tempted to try them on my old JBL's! |
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 13, 2015 14:59:36 GMT -5
I should add that my approach to my home theater is most likely very different from anyone else's. Everybody has a certain "sound" they are looking for. Like the perfect car, the "perfect" sound is very subjective. Not only is there Ford vs. Chevy, there is also Ferrari, Bentley, Land Rover, Jeep (my favorite) and countless others. What makes it "perfect" is very specific to the person. Not only did I spend quite a few years in the high-end audio world, I also spent time DJ'ing, mixing live sound and in recording studios. I love the dynamics of a LOT of power and speakers that can utilize it. Most studios and live events use horns. I find I like the sound of horns, because they sound like the studio/event. On the retail side, we had a few showrooms using B&W 801N's on Krell FPB-600's. I remember them needing dedicated electrical circuits on each of them. Basically, the 801's had unlimited power available to them. (side note: the name Krell is from Star Trek with a meaning of "unlimited power") The sound was awesome, but still limited. I used to regularly blow tweeters on the 801's during my personal listening sessions. In most "pro" systems, you will not find passive crossovers and mid-bass is usually handled by surprisingly large drivers. For me, all these things all part of the "perfect" sound. When a snare drum is hit, I want my eyes to blink, just like it would live. That just can't be done using a few 6"-8" drivers on a couple hundred watts of power. No matter how good a sub is, it can't supply the mid-bass attack I'm looking for. My LCR's are based loosely on the Econowave design many DIY audiophiles have been working with. My choice of drivers took a while to settle on. I really wanted to use JBL's, but they seem to need a bit more room to be appreciated. The Radian 475PB's on the QSC horns are one of the most musical combo's I have heard that still have the dynamics of live sound. I did deaden the horns with about 5 pounds of lead shot on each one, eliminating any ringing from the horn body itself. After playing with a few different passive crossover designs, I tried the XLS built in crossovers, a "modded" Behringer 2496 electronic and settled on the MiniDSP 10x4. This setup gives me full 24/96 resolution, on really good DAC's, for two channel and 24/48 for theater use. It also allowed me to really dial in the sub-woofer, so that it completely disappears in music listening. I also have a decent vinyl collection and setup. I hope to have one system for everything and it is pretty close now. We will see if the XPA-3's help or hurt my big picture plan. I'm really looking forward to trying the three 1500's bridged on the 12's and the XPA-3 on the horns. I may just need to get a small tube amp for my old Klipsch speakers as a dedicated analog system. Now that I have bored everyone with the details of my build, I'll just wait for the XPA's to arrive. If you had this content in the opening post I would have suggested that you stick with the Crowns. If you want pro sound then you should use pro amplifiers. A hifi amp no matter how good it is will not produce that live performance heavily amplified sound, it's just not their design parameter. If you want to try something different in the pro sound area I suggest giving a Marshall EL34 100/100 a try for the high frequency drivers, they give that valve, tubey live sound that's unmistakable. It's absolutely memory jogger, but not to everyones taste. Cheers Gary |
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Post by eurorom on Jan 13, 2015 15:19:11 GMT -5
I have not found regardless of price a system that could play at reference levels for sub stain times without damaging the mids or destroying tweeters!
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 13, 2015 15:32:45 GMT -5
I have not found regardless of price a system that could play at reference levels for sub stain times without damaging the mids or destroying tweeters! It's actually pretty easy to get pro sound at reference levels (plus some) you just need space and a reasonable budget, hifi sound is a different story of course. Cheers Gary |
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Post by garbulky on Jan 13, 2015 16:16:49 GMT -5
I have not found regardless of price a system that could play at reference levels for sub stain times without damaging the mids or destroying tweeters! Hehe there's quite a bit! But like has been mentioned a budget and the area is needed. Also .... usually you are looking for clean output, but not necessarily ultra refinement at low volumes. One of which is JTR speakers with a useable output of oh above 130 db of power. jtrspeakers.com/home-audio/noesis-212ht/A few of these subwoofers will also quickly demolish your house www.powersoundaudio.com/products/xv15seOr two of these bad boys for 13 hz bass (Axiom Ep 800)  Couple them with a XPR-5 or a sherbourn PA 7-350 and you will be doing quite well for reference levels. I know a guy on this forum @n8dogg who may no longer be active who uses pro amps and several diy subs for playing at well over reference volumes. I believe he has something like 40,000 watts of amplification power and a business power line for that purpose! |
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Post by ekgajewski on Jan 14, 2015 14:13:13 GMT -5
Wow, this has really opened up a lot of discussion, I love it.
"Live" sound level is generally considered 115db-120db continuous. If you read about the "loudest" bands/concerts in history, you'll find that only a handful ever made it past 130db on record.
With an efficient speaker (99db 1w/1m), you can reach the 120's with 256 watts of power. Start doing some SPL calculations for multiple speakers and 125db can be sustained and 130db is reachable for dynamics. This IS what I have attained in my theater for most of the frequency range. I am not getting 130db at 16hz, yet!
IF you start with only a "fairly" efficient speaker (90db 1w/1m), you can only comfortably sustain sound pressure in the 116db range with the same power.
Many "audiophile" speakers are rated between 80db and 90db 1w/1m. Obviously, you cant get nearly the pressure of a "live" event with them, unless they handle 1000's of watts.
I am NOT saying that MY way is right and any other is wrong. I fully appreciate (even like) the sound of a B&W's or even Martin Logan's. They just weren't the type of sound I was looking for in THIS room at THIS time. I actually almost went with ML's and will most likely build a two channel system with them at some point.
My XPA-3's will be here tomorrow! I also just received a bunch of more room treatments, so I will have a busy weekend.
Don't worry, I'll listen to the differences using the same room acoustics before I comment. Something tells me one of the XPA-3's will be going back because I'm going to like the sound of the bridged 1500's on my 12's.
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Post by Gary Cook on Jan 14, 2015 19:17:01 GMT -5
The loudest live concert I have heard personally was ACDC on the Back in Black tour in 1981, outdoors in Sydney. They were measured at 130 dB by the acoustic engineer, who if I remember rightly was about 30 metres from the stage. On the way home in the car a couple of hours later I couldn't hear the passengers talking due to the temporary deafness. Before that Deep Purple at a 1972 concert in the Rainbow Theatre in London made almost 120 dB, a Guinness Book record at the time. I recall that Led Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love was breathtakingly loud at their Sydney concert also in 1972 and outdoors. I was off side to the stage with the other roadies and even then it was make your eyes water loud.
I still recall that acoustic engineer saying to me something like "that's 30 db above the level for permanent deafness" as he straightened up his over ear hearing protection, he had ear plugs in as well.
Cheers
Gary
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