In need of Dirac measurement screenshots (analysis complete)

[Jim]

Tony - I appreciate your hard work.

I'm sorry that your results are being received in the manner that they are.

Every problem has a solution... I appreciate you sharing what you've learned.

[rocky500]

Jan 21, 2015 18:47:38 GMT -5 ansat said:

On a side note: I am curious hear the new experiences using my math cal file. If you do not want to post them publically, feel free to send me a PM. If you don't want to discuss it through the forums, PM me and I will provide my personal email.

Thanks,
Tony

Have you taken into account where your Mic seems different than the others?
As what Roger got seems to indicate that problem area you mentioned earlier with your mic in the 300 to 800Hz.

[Axis]

Anybody here design and manufacture AV Preamp/Processor's or Surround Sound Room Correction systems ?

[socketman]

Jan 21, 2015 19:17:23 GMT -5 Axis said:

Anybody here design and manufacture AV Preamp/Processor's or Surround Sound Room Correction systems ?

No but I stayed at the holiday inn last nite. Seriously, men fly airplanes and have never built one ,whats your point.

[tunatamer]

Some feedback:

To My system, in MY room, with MY setup, and My old ears, Tony's file made a world of difference for me.

Dirac is back on as the preset and I'm looking forward to putting the XMC through it's paces..Again.

Thank You Sir!

Your work is much appreciated.
And I agree with Bootman you should get a free upgrade!

[KeithL]

I'm NOT going to get into an argument here, but I do feel obligated to inject a few facts into the discussion at this point (rather than presumptions or assumptions)....

First, ALL of our microphones are tested multiple times before being shipped, and those tests include verifying that the microphone performs within a rather narrow frequency response window. Since microphones aren't especially delicate, and we ship ours pretty well packed, it's actually quite unlikely that more than one or two people have recieved microphones that are "out of calibration" - if even that many.

Second, just to put things in perspective, the vast majority of our customers who have used Dirac are very happy with the results. Most people DON'T find that, after running Dirac, their system sounds shrill or overly sharp, or thin and lifeless; most people like the results just fine and find it a huge improvement. And, while it is true that quite a few folks were expecting to hear more bass after they ran Dirac, a lot of them were simply expecting the same overhyped bass thay they're used to hearing at movie theaters and friend's houses... and actually liked the way Dirac made their system sound once they took the time to get used to it. Others simply LIKE to boost the bass a bit, which is why we included level trims. We don't want to tell you how you should listen to music, but the default Target Curve for Dirac Live is designed to be "perceptually flat" (to sound flat). If that's your issue, then the Full version of Dirac Live, with the adjustable Target Curves, should take care of all your objections.

So, other than that, why are some of you so unhappy with the results? Well, we think it's really unlikely that you got a bad microphone. And, clearly, Dirac does indeed work quite well for most people and in most rooms. Therefore, it seems most likely to us that it's one of two things:

1) You really don't like what flat sounds like. Don't get mad; you aren't obligated to like what flat sounds like. If everybody liked exactly the same thing, then everybody would buy exactly the same equipment, and set it exactly the same way. You don't all do that, right?

2) Maybe you have a situation where Dirac Live really isn't able to do a good job. Maybe you have unusual speakers, or an unusual room, or perfectly normal speakers and a normal room, but yur speakers are in weird placed IN the room. Dirac Live is almost certainly the single most effective room correction solution currently available (and absolutely one of the top few), but it isn't perfect, and it can't do miracles. If your sub, or your listening seat, is smack dab in the middle of a room mode, or a notch where your two subs cancel out, then even Dirac Live may not be able to fix it. Likewise, if your room is super-reflective or really dead, then no room correction system can make it magically sound NOT that way. (If that's the case, you can adjust the room electronically for flattest "power response" or flattest "short term frequency response" - but you can't get both right at once using electronics. To fix either of those situations, you may need some room treatments.... sorry.) Of course, you should try a few different runs with slightly different measurement positions before you resort to any more extreme measures.

And the "room thing" brings me back to microphones and calibration curves. All microphones, even expensive ones, have a frequency response that is rather different on-axis than at various angles off-axis. The calibration curve is used to correct the frequency response of the microphone AT A SPECIFIC MEASUREMENT ANGLE. If you take two accurately calibrated microphones, use them as the manufacturer recommends (on axis or at 90 degrees off-axis), and use the calibration curves they give you, you should get consistent results. Of course, in order to achieve this, you MUST TAKE THE MEASUREMENTS IN AN ANECHOIC CHAMBER. That's the only way you can ensure that you're only measuring sound that reaches the microphone from the correct direction (the direction for which the calibration curve was written). In any other more normal type of room, you're going to be measuring a combination of direct incident sound coming from the "calibrated direction" mixed with reflected sound coming from all sorts of other directions (and your microphone isn't calibrated for those directions). This is why, using the exact same measurement method, different - and equally accurate - microphones can produce different results. Of course, many software programs use various strategies to attempt to "avoid" allowing the room acoustics to "interfere" with their measurements, but doing that doesn't accurately reflect what you hear either. In short, even if you purchase the full version of Dirac Live so you can use different microphones, don't assume that you will get exactly the same results with different microphones, or that your results with a given microphone will agree with the results of OTHER programs with that microphone..

Our little microphone is actually the result of careful design; and it avoids many of the design flaws in some others that are far more expensive. Our calibration curve has been confirmed by Dirac in their labs, and their software makes use of both the direct measured response, and of the room reflections, in order to calculate the filters it designs for your room and system. That's how Dirac Live is able to correct for your room in terms of things like impulse response - rather than simply doing a really nice automatic EQ. (Incidentally, our microphone is actually more accurate than many other measurement microphones when used as intended... but expecting two differrent calibrated microphones to produce the same results, or expecting the same microphone to produce the same results when used with different programs that perform their measurements in different ways, is simply unrealistic.)

Believe me; if Dirac actually didn't work, I'd be right there with you trying to get it fixed just as soon as possible... but, in fact, it does work rather well the vast majority of the time. (And, if you are one of the few for which it isn't working, I'll just beg your indulgence to keep that fact in perspective...)

Jan 21, 2015 17:13:10 GMT -5 klinemj said:

Jan 21, 2015 13:06:38 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Really, guys.
...
The Full version of Dirac will be available shortly, and then you'll be able to use a different microphone if you like, and create your own Target Curves....
By all means, if you LIKE the results you get with REW better than the ones you get with Dirac, then use REW...  we don't mind a bit...

HOWEVER, complaints about how "the measurements must be wrong because I just know my speaker couldn't measure like that" and "we shouldn't believe measurements like that" are just plain tedious.

Sorry Keith, but I have to say "really Keith"...I think you are missing the point that Tony has been looking into, what his data says, and what many XMC users have been saying about how Dirac sounds. First, what I have been reading from many is that once they have run Dirac and use it, the highs sound too loud and the lows sound to quiet. Nobody "Photoshopped" that...it is what they have reported hearing. Please don't belittle those who have reported this problem...they are not just looking at graphs.

Second, what Tony's data is showing is that if he uses the Emo Mic with the Emo-provided calibration curve built into Dirac, it measures low at the upper end and high at the lower end relative to using another mic he's got a calibration curve for. If he changes the Emo mic's calibration curve, he can match the results of his calibrated mic.

Let's just put 2+2 together here...Emo mic measures off vs. known calibrated individual other mic in the same way that would suggest that if Diract took data from the Emo mic and built filters off the data, Dirac would over-boost the upper end and cut back the low end too much. Hmmm...this seems to agree with the most common complaint of people who are saying they have not liked the sound post Dirac. Could there possibly be a relationship here? We have a saying in engineering: "GIGO"..."Garbage in, Garbage out". Simply put...feed a computer program bad data and the output will be bad. It is looking like something like that is affecting DIRAC...based on the full data I am seeing.

So...please stop being so defensive of Emotiva in this situation. I am one who has been tempted by the XMC-1 but am really waiting for an even higher end version (an RMC-1) and whether I get impatient and pull the trigger on an XMC-1 or wait for an "RMC-1"...I really want DIRAC working. And, it doesn't look like it is yet.

Simple as that...no attack on you, no attack on Emotiva...just concerned current and future customers.

Mark

[rocky500]

My Emo mic (no cal) and calibrated umik with 90 degree cal (purple).

The Emo mic looks very good (before using any Cal file). I did make make my own Cal file (to match my Umik) the other night and reran Dirac.
Had a mate around and he much preferred my music with Dirac on. I trust his ears and opinion more than mine from his past experience.
Im my case I think the Emo cal did not go far enough in the higher registers.
Really looking forward to the upgrade! The XMC-1 is a great product even without Dirac to me.

[cawgijoe]

:(Can we please stop the rudeness and play nice?

This is not an easy thread to read, especially the last few pages.

[tunatamer]

Keith, I have to say the response in the above post does not address what many of us, as your customers, are experiencing.

The statement that "Second, just to put things in perspective, the vast majority of our customers who have used Dirac are very happy with the results. Most people DON'T find that, after running Dirac, their system sounds shrill or overly sharp, or thin and lifeless" does not correlate to what I have experienced and from the comments that some other customers have expressed.

I do not have an odd room or weird speaker placement or esoteric speakers.

As you have mentioned multiple times in your posts, it's how it SOUNDS that matters. I agree.

So, if it sounds like the south end of a cow walking north smells, I chose to turn it off.

When offered an alternative by one of our forum members that brings back life to what I hear, I consider it a path to get my XMC sounding good with Dirac.
Sounds great flat too but as we do, I'm always searching for the best. And an answer to what we're experiencing.

[Axis]

Jan 21, 2015 19:19:43 GMT -5 socketman said:

Jan 21, 2015 19:17:23 GMT -5 Axis said:

Anybody here design and manufacture AV Preamp/Processor's or Surround Sound Room Correction systems ?

No but I stayed at the holiday inn last nite. Seriously, men fly airplanes and have never built one ,whats your point.

No point, I am asking if anyone reading this in the Emotiva Lounge designs and manufactures AV Preamp/Processor's or Surround Sound Room Correction systems. Right now I think Keith is closest person involved with bringing this product to market posting in this thread and I believe what he has to say. There seems to be several here that read like they are very sharp with graphs and frequencies. From the very beginning I have had the feeling that Dirac is making the sound flat and like Keith is saying, some don't like flat. I think you guys got a little party going here for the we don't like flat cause.

If there is someone else here that was involved with building this product or one similar please speak up other wise I support Keith's perspective in this matter.

[klinemj]

KeithL - is there a reason you posted my avatar in full size in your post? Can you remove it? It makes it look like you are calling me out for something.

And meanwhile...it's clear you are not listening to anything anyone says. So, I give. I did PM Dan and Lonnie suggesting they have a chat with you.

Thanks, Mark

[yeeeha17]

Someone got to take a class on customer service 101

[rocky500]

Unfortunately there is no classes on customers posting on forums. This place would be so much better.

[foggy1956]

Jan 21, 2015 20:31:22 GMT -5 cawgijoe said:

:(Can we please stop the rudeness and play nice?

This is not an easy thread to read, especially the last few pages.

amen

[rocky500]

I really like KeithL's posts. They are some of the most professional and knowledgeable and easy to follow posts I read on the entire net for me. I love the effort and time he puts in to help and teach us all.
I feel for Emotiva as some of the posts by customers are so full of emotion that they sometimes miss putting their points across and they become like brick walls.

Emotiva seems to me to listen to constructive criticism and problems people have. So if you can please let them know but we are all adults and can have leveled conversations.



For me, I would like to see a donation setup to have Emotiva's own in house Calibrated mic sent out and checked, just in case someone there has dropped it (and not owned up ) and messed up its calibration. I will start with $5 to $10.

[viper6]

Jan 21, 2015 20:39:41 GMT -5 tunatamer said:

The statement that "Second, just to put things in perspective, the vast majority of our customers who have used Dirac are very happy with the results. Most people DON'T find that, after running Dirac, their system sounds shrill or overly sharp, or thin and lifeless" does not correlate to what I have experienced and from the comments that some other customers have expressed.

First, it is not my intent to demean anyone's dissatisfaction with the way Dirac sounds in their system. Whatever the reason, we all have are own taste, and this is all about getting our music (and or movies) closer to the ideal as we each perceive it.

With regard to taste, I have personal experience with individuals who have become SO accustomed to "miss calibration" (in this case it was video) that they actually did NOT like a properly adjusted picture.

While I am by no means saying that this is the case with all (not even most) users who don't like the way Dirac sounds, I would be shocked if this wasn't the case for some.

That being said, in my experience with "things" of this nature, there is usually a rather large, silent, majority that IS satisfied.

I am among them. And my room/speaker arrangement IS strange. All three front speakers are within an inch of the ceiling (sitting in a shelf, angled down, back edge nearly touching), and they were NOT designed for that placement.

I posted here only because the overall tenor of replies seemed (to me at least) to be of the "Dirac sounds bad" variety, conveying the general impression that Dirac doesn't work.  A conclusion that my experience contradicts.

Tony, if you find this post off topic, or too much of a distraction from your intent for this thread, let me know and I will remove it.

[KeithL]

Sorry about the avatar... I have no idea why that happened... all I did was quote you. (fixed)

Jan 21, 2015 21:07:21 GMT -5 klinemj said:

KeithL - is there a reason you posted my avatar in full size in your post? Can you remove it? It makes it look like you are calling me out for something.

And meanwhile...it's clear you are not listening to anything anyone says. So, I give. I did PM Dan and Lonnie suggesting they have a chat with you.

Thanks, Mark

[klinemj]

Thank you.

[Gary Cook]

Typical forum problem, a handful of people don't like something and therefore that means everyone doesn't like it. There are several posts that claim "most people"................. seriously..................in comparison to the number who have bought XMC-1's, a hundred, a thousand, a handful of complaints is not "most", it's a minority, a tiny minority. It seems to me that the vast majority must be very happy, they're at home listening to the music.


Cheers
Gary

[Lsc]

If you have no bass and the highs are overly shrill, perhaps the mic was hidden from direct line of sight from the tweeters. Make sure the mic is high enough during calibration.

I think I'm not use to flat frequency response especially with the highs...it's still a little much. The bass is awesome with respect to how tight and clean it sounds but the output does seem a little reduced...

I need a personal visit from Emotiva...Keith if you are in Chicago, come over! I'll grill some good steak and we can verify Dirac...consider it field work .

I'll try using Ansat's calibration file tonight just for grins, but I gotta tell you I hate doing these measurements. They are a chore...it's like watching paint dry.

if we had more than one Dirac preset, it would be an easy A/B test..bummer.