DC-1 vs XSP-1 as preamp driving XPA-1L's

[stlaudiofan1]

Feb 11, 2015 12:02:35 GMT -5 jumper said:

Thanks Soundmaster - you make a very good point. I think my dilemma is even greater because the DC-1 has one of the better pre-amp sections compared to other DAC's out there that have one. That means the improvement might be less noticeable vs. adding the XSP-1 to those other DAC's. So pretty much concurring with what you just said. Looks like I'll just need to bite the bullet and try the XSP-1 to find out for myself. I really am eyeing a couple subwoofers to help even out the bass in my room (its an awkward shape), this could give more value to keeping the XSP-1 given its bass management. If and when I pull the trigger I'll be sure to report back. I'd still love to hear if anybody has more opinions on the DC-1's preamp vs. the XSP-1 in terms of SQ. Thanks to everybody who's shared their input so far.

If you like the DC-1 and you think you are staying digital, then I would save the cash.  As for my personal experience, I prefer a seperate preamp.  I listen vinyl, so the analog input is important to me.  The XSP-1 has a great phono stage, should you want to go that route.  

I also personally don't want my preamp tied to the DAC, because DAC technology and music format changes more frequently.  For instance, if you wanted to try DSD, what would you do?  You would have to look for a new DAC with that capability, limited by one with an equally good preamp section.  Things seem to be settling down a bit now, though.  I had to live through 88/24, 96/24, 176/24 and 192/24 and DSD.  All of those formats, as they came to fruition, caused me grief through my music server/DAC adventure that I ultimately abandoned.  I'm sure I'm a bit tainted as a result.

That is just me though, I'm sure you will be very happy whichever way you go.

[jumper]

Thanks stlaudiofan1, very good points. From a technical standpoint I feel that the DC-1 on it's own should do the job correctly - but I'm afraid I can't leave well enough alone though - the XSP-1 will haunt my dreams if I don't eventually try it lol... but really, it will bug me so I think I'm going to bite the bullet. I'll keep researching and torturing myself through the weekend and most likely pull the trigger next week (although I could still be convinced otherwise). I know I like the XSP-1 trim features, I've always tweaked bass and treble controls on past gear I've owned. And I suspect I will add a pair of subwoofers to go 2.2 just for more even bass response if nothing else (I have an awkwardly shaped listening room) so the XSP-1 bass management could come in handy. My source still remains my purpose built PC, no plans for vinyl or any other analog sources yet (but you never know). And like you mentioned with the XSP-1, I could swap out DAC's in the future without losing my preamp. I'll post back my progress on this in case any others are curious about the XSP-1 vs DC-1 in various preamp configurations.

[novisnick]

Feb 12, 2015 14:05:54 GMT -5 jumper said:

Thanks stlaudiofan1, very good points. From a technical standpoint I feel that the DC-1 on it's own should do the job correctly - but I'm afraid I can't leave well enough alone though - the XSP-1 will haunt my dreams if I don't eventually try it lol... but really, it will bug me so I think I'm going to bite the bullet. I'll keep researching and torturing myself through the weekend and most likely pull the trigger next week (although I could still be convinced otherwise). I know I like the XSP-1 trim features, I've always tweaked bass and treble controls on past gear I've owned. And I suspect I will add a pair of subwoofers to go 2.2 just for more even bass response if nothing else (I have an awkwardly shaped listening room) so the XSP-1 bass management could come in handy. My source still remains my purpose built PC, no plans for vinyl or any other analog sources yet (but you never know). And like you mentioned with the XSP-1, I could swap out DAC's in the future without losing my preamp. I'll post back my progress on this in case any others are curious about the XSP-1 vs DC-1 in various preamp configurations.

OH! just Order the Dang XSP-1 gen 2 already!!!!!       ,,,,he,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,, 

[jumper]

Feb 12, 2015 14:21:08 GMT -5 novisnick said:

OH! just Order the Dang XSP-1 gen 2 already!!!!!       ,,,,he,,,,,,he,,,,,he,,,,,, 

I know right?

[flatpicker]

Feb 12, 2015 14:05:54 GMT -5 jumper said:

Thanks stlaudiofan1, very good points. From a technical standpoint I feel that the DC-1 on it's own should do the job correctly - but I'm afraid I can't leave well enough alone though - the XSP-1 will haunt my dreams if I don't eventually try it lol... but really, it will bug me so I think I'm going to bite the bullet. I'll keep researching and torturing myself through the weekend and most likely pull the trigger next week (although I could still be convinced otherwise). I know I like the XSP-1 trim features, I've always tweaked bass and treble controls on past gear I've owned. And I suspect I will add a pair of subwoofers to go 2.2 just for more even bass response if nothing else (I have an awkwardly shaped listening room) so the XSP-1 bass management could come in handy. My source still remains my purpose built PC, no plans for vinyl or any other analog sources yet (but you never know). And like you mentioned with the XSP-1, I could swap out DAC's in the future without losing my preamp. I'll post back my progress on this in case any others are curious about the XSP-1 vs DC-1 in various preamp configurations.

I will say, that when I had an XSP-1 (just sold it to a forum member from the great frozen north), I liked the iMac _ DC-1 _ XSP-1 _ Stealth 6 combo better than  iMac _ DC-1 _ Stealth 6... but was it my imagination?  I dunno, but I sold the XSP-1 to help buy another XMC-1...

[stlaudiofan1]

Feb 12, 2015 15:33:48 GMT -5 flatpicker said:

I will say, that when I had an XSP-1 (just sold it to a forum member from the great frozen north), I liked the iMac _ DC-1 _ XSP-1 _ Stealth 6 combo better than  iMac _ DC-1 _ Stealth 6... but was it my imagination?  I dunno, but I sold the XSP-1 to help buy another XMC-1...

I know, right?  I had the same experience.  I tried a Placette Audio Remote Volume Control once .  It cost me 1K and is essentially only a volume control that consists of many Dale/Vishay resisitors. It is probably the closest thing to a straight wire you can get.  It was completely transparent, but I grew tired of it.  What I found is that, for some reason, a good preamp is additive in some positive way.  Less should be more, but it isn't.

[frisco]

I'm also thinking about using a DC-1 as a pre-amp in my main system (I already have one for my small office system.) And, several questions---

(1) Regarding upgrades to new DAC technology, if you have a purely digital source system, could you use the DC-1s analog in for a new start of the art DAC, or a current DSD or an OPPO etc. Will the analog input be subject to processing by the DC-1?

(2) What do you lose in bass management with the DC-1 compared to a preamp. I know you have to run your mains large and can't adjust their range, but are there other drawbacks, assuming you can adjust the subs crossover?

(3) What is a full range speaker anyway? Do you measure it mostly by the low frequency range of the speaker, or is the term in the eye of the beholder? My phase techs are rated down to 40hz and provide pretty good bass.

[deltadube]

Feb 12, 2015 23:58:21 GMT -5 frisco said:

I'm also thinking about using a DC-1 as a pre-amp in my main system (I already have one for my small office system.) And, several questions---

(1) Regarding upgrades to new DAC technology, if you have a purely digital source system, could you use the DC-1s analog in for a new start of the art DAC, or a current DSD or an OPPO etc. Will the analog input be subject to processing by the DC-1?

(2) What do you lose in bass management with the DC-1 compared to a preamp. I know you have to run your mains large and can't adjust their range, but are there other drawbacks, assuming you can adjust the subs crossover?

(3) What is a full range speaker anyway? Do you measure it mostly by the low frequency range of the speaker, or is the term in the eye of the beholder? My phase techs are rated down to 40hz and provide pretty good bass.

heres a nice full range speaker !!

[garbulky]

Feb 12, 2015 23:58:21 GMT -5 frisco said:

I'm also thinking about using a DC-1 as a pre-amp in my main system (I already have one for my small office system.) And, several questions---

(1) Regarding upgrades to new DAC technology, if you have a purely digital source system, could you use the DC-1s analog in for a new start of the art DAC, or a current DSD or an OPPO etc. Will the analog input be subject to processing by the DC-1?

(2) What do you lose in bass management with the DC-1 compared to a preamp. I know you have to run your mains large and can't adjust their range, but are there other drawbacks, assuming you can adjust the subs crossover?

(3) What is a full range speaker anyway? Do you measure it mostly by the low frequency range of the speaker, or is the term in the eye of the beholder? My phase techs are rated down to 40hz and provide pretty good bass.

1 The DC-1 has a separate analog input. It is all in the analog realm and the DC-1's volume control is an analog resistor ladder on a chip design. So no digital processing. You can actually hear a relay clicking when you press the analog button as it switches to it.

It is an active pre-amp. So whatever DAC you put in there will be affected in one way or the other by the circuitry in the DC-1. Just as it would in any other active pre-amp.

2. Compared to an XSP-1. The XSP-1 has dedicated stereo subwoofer dual outputs. It also has a crossover management so you can send only the low frequencies to the subwoofer. This way integration can be slightly more precise - or atl east that's the idea. Then only the mid and high frequencies go to your speakers - theoretically lessening the load that your speaker needs to drive.

With the DC-1 there's none of that. You send a full range signal to the subwoofer and use the crossover and gain knobs on your subwoofer to dial it in to where your speakers roll off naturally. Quite a few people do it this way with sucess.

3. Full range usually means that a subwoofer isn't needed. What "needed" means varies depending on who you ask! But basically the speaker can play low with authority.
Now there are a lot of speakers that are rated for 30 to 50 hz. But when you get below 50 hz, if a speaker can actually do it vs doing it properly is a whole different ball game.

[stlaudiofan1]

Additionally, if you have a subwoofer that accepts high level input from a speaker wire, you can connect an EXTRA set of speaker wires to this subwoofer input. I have done that in the past with great success. I was reluctant to do this, because I thought it would have adverse effects, but a very renowned audio engineer suggested this. He said it requires such a small amount of current, that the amplifier would not even see it or degrade the sound in any way. He also mentioned that there are folks that prefer this method of connection. The one caveat to this is that the subwoofer needs to have its own adjustable crossover and volume level, because it is getting the full signal. My subwoofer lets me adjust the max output level and volume. I knew my Magnepans bottom end was 40hz, so I set the max output on the subwoofer to 40hz. Things got really "weird" on me when the speakers and subwoofer were covering the same frequencies. I was running this way and noticed absolutely no degradation to my main speakers, however, you must be able to connect 2 speakers wires to each amplifier channel.

Also, most subwoofers that have this high level speaker wire connection have a speaker wire "output". So, you can run the speaker wire to this input and then speaker wires from the output to you speakers. It is in essence picking up the signal and passing the signal through to your speakers. I did notice a slight degradation in sound when I tried this method.

[bub]

Im going to take a shot at #2...Im using a DAC as pre-amp in one system. I go from source to sub ( svs sb-13 ) set high and low filters etc then back out to amp to power floorstanders..the DSP in the sub does all the work. I have 2 of my subs like this..
In a secondary bedroom rig I do the same with a different sub with only one filter and bookshelves..Into sub from source and back out to amp to power speakers.

In my main HT I use the xsp-1 to two subs and speakers..But I still set slope and gain ( room comp ) on sub..

They all to my ears sound excellent.

[KeithL]

That engineer was quite correct about the small amount of current being drawn by the speaker-level input of the sub being insignificant. However, he failed to mention a few other important aspects of the situation. The purpose of a crossover is to send the appropriate frequencies to each speaker - the main range of frequencies to the main speakers, EXCEPT for the very low bass, and ONLY the very low bass to the sub. This prevents the amplifier that powers your main speaker from wasting power amplifying frequencies the speakers can't play anyway, which uses up amplifier power and dynamic range, and also prevents the speakers from trying to reproduce frequencies outside their operating range. When you ask a woofer to produce bass at frequencies lower than those it handles well, you end up forcing the cone to move around a lot, which in turn increases the distortion at other frequencies you can hear. That power is still raising the temperature of the woofer voice coil and making the woofer "wave around" even though no sound is coming out. (By adding a sub that can make those low notes, you AREN'T keeping your main speakers from working like crazy to still TRY and reproduce them as well; that's what the crossover does.) This is especially the case with bass reflex speakers, which are often poorly controlled, and so "flop around" pretty badly, once you get below the range of frequencies they are designed to handle. Adding a crossover on the main speakers should increase dynamic range, increase the level at which they can play cleanly, and reduce the "wear and tear" on both your main speakers and the amplifier that powers them. (Depending on your particular speakers and amp this may or may not be a significant consideration. In the particular case of using Airmotivs with a DC-1, while using an actual crossover will increase the maximum level you'll be able to play them cleanly at, the other factors I mentioned are not especially critical - because the Airmotivs "don't much mind" receiving a little bit of bass below their lowest operating frequencies. With Maggies, since they tend to roll off by themselves at lower frequencies, the "cone movement" issue probably doesn't matter either, although wasting amplifier power on frequencies the speaker isn't going to play anyway seems not to be a great idea with speakers as inefficient as Maggies - unless you've got really big amps )  

As you've already noted, not using a crossover will result in a larger overlap in the operating ranges of your sub and main speakers, which can make finding settings and room locations where they work well together somewhat more tricky; however, some people insist that, once you do get that right, you end up with a smoother transition between them. (That will depend on your particular speakers and room.) You've also technically got the issue that you're running the sub off of the speaker output of another amplifier, which isn't going to be as clean as a line-level output; however this tends not to be an issue at the frequencies used by subs (the sub isn't going to play any slight hiss the amp might add anyway).

You also mentioned that some subs have speaker level OUTPUTS as well as inputs. On some of them, these are simply a spare set of binding posts paralleled with the inputs - in which case they are the same as connecting both the sub and your speakers directly to the amplifier. On others, these outputs are passed through a speaker-level passive crossover (more of the type of crossover that's inside your speakers). Unfortunately, this has the potential to introduce all sorts of unpleasantness. The crossover parts they use in a sub may not be very good, in which case they may introduce extra distortion to the signal going to your main speakers (especially at loud listening levels). Even if they used very good parts, the extra parts will reduce the damping factor seen by your main speakers, and so affect how the bass sounds.

(Incidentally, two more things. First, most modern powered subs lack the "speaker level input" option since most are designed to be connected to the LFE output of a pre/pro. Second, if you DO use the speaker level inputs on a sub, and you AREN'T using the speaker level outputs, or it doesn't have any, you can connect those using even quite thin speaker wire. Since there's virtually no current being passed through the connection, even 18 gauge wire would be just fine. However, if you do have speaker levels outputs on the sub as well, and plan to use them too, then you need to use normal thickness speaker wire for both connections.)
 

Feb 13, 2015 8:10:29 GMT -5 stlaudiofan1 said:

Additionally, if you have a subwoofer that accepts high level input from a speaker wire, you can connect an EXTRA set of speaker wires to this subwoofer input. I have done that in the past with great success. I was reluctant to do this, because I thought it would have adverse effects, but a very renowned audio engineer suggested this. He said it requires such a small amount of current, that the amplifier would not even see it or degrade the sound in any way. He also mentioned that there are folks that prefer this method of connection. The one caveat to this is that the subwoofer needs to have its own adjustable crossover and volume level, because it is getting the full signal. My subwoofer lets me adjust the max output level and volume. I knew my Magnepans bottom end was 40hz, so I set the max output on the subwoofer to 40hz. Things got really "weird" on me when the speakers and subwoofer were covering the same frequencies. I was running this way and noticed absolutely no degradation to my main speakers, however, you must be able to connect 2 speakers wires to each amplifier channel.

Also, most subwoofers that have this high level speaker wire connection have a speaker wire "output". So, you can run the speaker wire to this input and then speaker wires from the output to you speakers. It is in essence picking up the signal and passing the signal through to your speakers. I did notice a slight degradation in sound when I tried this method.

[stlaudiofan1]

Hello Keith.  I currently have the XSP-1 G2 using base management and I'm biamping the Maggie's with 4 XPA-1Ls.  I agree that that having the XSP-1 doing the base management is by far ideal.  In another post I stated that I noticed running the XSP-1 using base management yielded best results for me, even though the XSP-1 doesn't run in full differential mode with it engaged.  Presumably relieving the amps of the extra work yields far better benefits than full differential mode.  What I was trying to say that using a sub is still possible without a preamp with base management, but there is a lot considerations and it the sub has to have the right features.  I had a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum at the time.  It had an extra set of variable preamp out RCAs, but when I tried connecting those to the sub while the integrated amp was driving the Magnepans, I kept blowing tubes.  The above method  was the only way I could integrate a sub onto the mix.

[KeithL]

Wow... I wonder if you had some sort of ground problem (maybe the sub had a floating ground and was trying to ground itself back through the amp). There really isn't any way you should be able to blow tubes by connecting a line-level output to a line level input.

Feb 13, 2015 12:54:38 GMT -5 stlaudiofan1 said:

Hello Keith.  I currently have the XSP-1 G2 using base management and I'm biamping the Maggie's with 4 XPA-1Ls.  I agree that that having the XSP-1 doing the base management is by far ideal.  In another post I stated that I noticed running the XSP-1 using base management yielded best results for me, even though the XSP-1 doesn't run in full differential mode with it engaged.  Presumably relieving the amps of the extra work yields far better benefits than full differential mode.  What I was trying to say that using a sub is still possible without a preamp with base management, but there is a lot considerations and it the sub has to have the right features.  I had a Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum at the time.  It had an extra set of variable preamp out RCAs, but when I tried connecting those to the sub while the integrated amp was driving the Magnepans, I kept blowing tubes.  The above method  was the only way I could integrate a sub onto the mix.

[stlaudiofan1]

Feb 13, 2015 14:55:57 GMT -5 KeithL said:

Wow... I wonder if you had some sort of ground problem (maybe the sub had a floating ground and was trying to ground itself back through the amp). There really isn't any way you should be able to blow tubes by connecting a line-level output to a line level input.

Feb 13, 2015 12:54:38 GMT -5 stlaudiofan1 said:

It was really strange.  I blew 3 KT90 tubes.  I went to the above mentioned method and it worked.  Then, the KT120 tubes came out and the Rogue could handle the extra current demand, so I ordered a set.  So I thought maybe I could try the variable output again.  The KT120s didn't blow, but with the sub connected, the volume dropped about 10-15 db.  It was very bizarre and unexpected.  Anyway, I'm lovin' life now, with the Emotiva gear.  I have to say the biggest surprise to me regarding the XSP-1 g2 preamp is the phono stage.  I expected everything else to be nothing less than exceptional, but I'm really surprised with the remarkable quality of the phono stage.

[jumper]

Just a heads up, I went ahead and ordered the XSP-1 today. Got a tracking number this afternoon but not sure if UPS was able to make the pickup due to weather in TN. Regardless, thought I would track my progress in this thread in case anybody cares to follow along. Once the XSP-1 is in I plan to compare the following:

Essence STX SPDIF out to DC-1 (coax), then to the XPA-1L's (xlr)
Essence STX SPDIF out to DC-1 (coax), to XSP-1 (xlr), then to the XPA-1L's (xlr)
Essence STX analog out to XSP-1 (rca), then to the XPA-1L's (xlr)

Should be interesting. I was somewhat tempted to try the XMC-1 as my DAC/preamp but the system in question will only ever be 2 channel (or 2.1 / 2.2) and the XMC-1 seems a bit feature laden for what I'm doing. I like the fact that the DAC is not in the preamp with the XSP-1, allowing me to try other flavors like the Oppo 105, Schiit Yggdrasil, or what have you. Or who knows, configuration #1 above may win out in the long run in which case I would get my money back from the XSP-1... My goal is to compile the best sounding components (that I can afford) to compliment my Philharmonic 3's in my particular listening room with my preferred style of music.

[garbulky]

Feb 17, 2015 18:26:15 GMT -5 jumper said:

Just a heads up, I went ahead and ordered the XSP-1 today. Got a tracking number this afternoon but not sure if UPS was able to make the pickup due to weather in TN. Regardless, thought I would track my progress in this thread in case anybody cares to follow along. Once the XSP-1 is in I plan to compare the following:

Essence STX SPDIF out to DC-1 (coax), then to the XPA-1L's (xlr)
Essence STX SPDIF out to DC-1 (coax), to XSP-1 (xlr), then to the XPA-1L's (xlr)
Essence STX analog out to XSP-1 (rca), then to the XPA-1L's (xlr)

Should be interesting. I was somewhat tempted to try the XMC-1 as my DAC/preamp but the system in question will only ever be 2 channel (or 2.1 / 2.2) and the XMC-1 seems a bit feature laden for what I'm doing. I like the fact that the DAC is not in the preamp with the XSP-1, allowing me to try other flavors like the Oppo 105, Schiit Yggdrasil, or what have you. Or who knows, configuration #1 above may win out in the long run in which case I would get my money back from the XSP-1... My goal is to compile the best sounding components (that I can afford) to compliment my Philharmonic 3's in my particular listening room with my preferred style of music.

Exciting news. I would be interested in this comparison. I always wondered how the xonar would do with a dedicated pre-amp like the XSP-1.

[jumper]

Quick update - the XSP-1 has yet to arrive due to all the bad weather, UPS shows it as 'delayed'. So hopefully it will come in soon and I'll be able to do some listening to get this review/comparison posted.

I have one question though - I had planned to run the DC-1 in fixed output mode into the XSP-1, however I've read a comment somewhere on the boards that the DC-1 sounded best for somebody attenuated -10 db. I would assume that obviously this means they are running the DC-1 in variable ouput mode - which I never thought of doing. What is the consensus on variable vs fixed for the DC-1 --> XSP-1?

[milsap195]

Feb 25, 2015 16:47:20 GMT -5 jumper said:

Quick update - the XSP-1 has yet to arrive due to all the bad weather, UPS shows it as 'delayed'. So hopefully it will come in soon and I'll be able to do some listening to get this review/comparison posted.

I have one question though - I had planned to run the DC-1 in fixed output mode into the XSP-1, however I've read a comment somewhere on the boards that the DC-1 sounded best for somebody attenuated -10 db. I would assume that obviously this means they are running the DC-1 in variable ouput mode - which I never thought of doing. What is the consensus on variable vs fixed for the DC-1 --> XSP-1?

It worked best for me on fixed, when I tried the same set up.

[jumper]

Feb 25, 2015 16:55:56 GMT -5 milsap195 said:

Feb 25, 2015 16:47:20 GMT -5 jumper said:

Quick update - the XSP-1 has yet to arrive due to all the bad weather, UPS shows it as 'delayed'. So hopefully it will come in soon and I'll be able to do some listening to get this review/comparison posted.

I have one question though - I had planned to run the DC-1 in fixed output mode into the XSP-1, however I've read a comment somewhere on the boards that the DC-1 sounded best for somebody attenuated -10 db. I would assume that obviously this means they are running the DC-1 in variable ouput mode - which I never thought of doing. What is the consensus on variable vs fixed for the DC-1 --> XSP-1?

It worked best for me on fixed, when I tried the same set up.

Thanks - what did you think of that combo? Did you compare it to the DC-1 by itself?