KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 27, 2015 12:00:18 GMT -5
Heck; I can "upgrade" my 2012 Nissan Versa to a new Rolls Royce... I'll just keep the keychain and "upgrade" all the other parts  Obsolete? Are 2014 automobiles obsolete? Surely my 1997 Jeep Wrangler must be obsolete. But then, it can get me to work when someone in a 2015 couldn't get out of their driveway. So my 17 year old vehicle can still do things new models cannot. But then my Jeep does't have power windows or locks so it must be obsolete. I bought it that way so it must have been obsolete from the beginning. But why couldn't that 2015 model get out of the driveway when we had the ice storm? Oh, maybe it's because it has no four wheel drive! Therefore, the 2015 without that feature must be obsolete. Or maybe they were designed to do different things.... Sorry, that is just unacceptable. Why can't we have a vehicle that does EVERYTHING? And is modular so it never, ever becomes obsolete. Oh, and price it under $500, too. |
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KeithL
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Post by KeithL on Feb 27, 2015 12:24:07 GMT -5
The problem there is that "in Internet years" 10-15 years is a very long time. Mono was the current format for darn near 100 years; stereo was the latest for a long time; surround sound made a go of it once before, and failed (remember SQ4 and CD4?); and now Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio have only lasted a few years as the latest and greatest. Now we have Atmos; in six months we're going to have DTS-X; do you really think we won't have Atmos 2 in a year, and DTS-XYZ the year after that, and then Atmos 3? None of us can even imagine what the "latest and greatest" format is going to be in ten years.... but I'll bet that it will require at least as much processing power as ten, or maybe 100, of the most powerful processors available today... that's just the way it is. It will be interesting to see when the current roller coaster stops.... after all, people do seem perfectly happy to buy a new $500 cell phone every few years to get the latest new feature, or that new 30 mega-pixel camera, or whatever. The reality is that, for many people, the "home theater wheel" stopped spinning at 5.1 channels (only about a quarter of "serious home theater owners" have gone from 5.1 to 7.2). There have also been formats like PLIIz that provided height channels, which were not widely adopted. There are also a LOT of Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio discs out there, which deliver 7.1 channels of very good quality uncompressed audio, in fact "as good as matters" to a lot of people, (and very few Atmos discs so far). Personally, I'm pretty sure that every Dolby disc will be "Atmos Enabled" by next year, (and every DTS disc will be "DTS-X-ified"). I'm equally sure that they will still sound very good in Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio, and that most listeners will be playing them that way... and at least half of them will probably still be doing it in 5.1 channels. (Bear in mind that, with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 channel speaker setup, without height speakers, Atmos will give you the same playback "experience" as True HD.) Some realism perhaps. I think its unrealistic to expect a company to engineer infinite unknown future upgrades into a product. Known upgrades are a different prospect, 4K, HDMI 2.0 and HDCP 2.2 were known to be coming at the time of the design sign off. Hence the upgrades for them as promised. Furthermore, I see the XMC-1 as a 2 dimensional processor and as such I wouldn't expect it to be upgradable to 3 dimensional sound. Plus of course the Atmos, Auro, DTS UHD etc standards were hardly known at the time of its engineering sign off. Most are not even know right now. Bit hard to engineer upgrades into a product when you don't even know what you are engineering it for. Personally that's why I will be sticking to the UMC-1, UMC-200 etc range and avoiding forking out $thousands every 2 to 3 years. Been there, done that, for the last 15 years, not falling into that trap again. For $200 to $300 per year I can live with the frequent upgrades, staying current generation and not falling behind due to excessive investment that has to be written off. Cheers Gary I never said infinite. Just the 10-15 years that was advertised...perhaps you didn't see the impressive video. And its easy to make comments when you have no eggs in the basket but if the shoe was on the other foot and you just had the XMC-1 shipped over international waters 2 months ago...would you feel the same way? Also, I believe Dolby Atmos was announced before the release of the XMC-1 and they were fully aware of the requirements when they shot that upgradability video. And if I recall the comparisons to $20k pre pros were originally made with the XMC-1 (compare to processors 10X it's cost). I could have just bought the Marantz 7702 with Atmos but I trusted Emotiva and Big Dan and went ahead with the XMC-1 order. The sound quality of two channel as well as 7.1 as I have said repeatedly, it's fantastic so I'm not disappointed in any shape or form on the performance of the current product. To just maintain some levity here, I won't be jumping off a building because of this, just said it was annoying. And if you still don't understand, please go back and watch the video. From the 2:50min mark on please...it's an investment..I'm one of those guy Big Dan is referring. Here is the link m.youtube.com/watch?v=pNeKmHKJdl8 |
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Post by khollister on Feb 27, 2015 12:26:58 GMT -5
Also remember that, at least so far, most of the people with "good 5.1 systems" haven't even moved up to 7.1 yet. <raises hand> I just spent close to $10K on an almost total audio makeover on my HT system (new mains & surrounds, XPA-5, XMC-1, Auralic Aries) and I'm still at 5.1. I have thought about 7.1, but I'm not sure the cost and even more clutter with more speakers (WAF) is worth it in sound. I thought briefly about Atmos, but decided I wasn't all that interested in cutting holes in my ceiling, running more wires and listening to my wife (and myself) complain about how ugly the room looks now with speaker grills in the great room ceiling. If I had a dedicated HT room (with an attic I could get into easier than the cathedral ceiling of my great room), I'd be a lot more likely to be all over it. But the XMC being 7.2 was no real limitation to me. And we are in the house we will likely live the rest of our lives in (I retired 2 years ago). In all honesty, I might be jonesin' for Unison once there are some reviews and discussion out there, and I would love a DSP upgrade so we could run Dirac @ 96k but that's about it barring updates to that actual amplifiers/PS for even better sound. I don't care about new features beyond Dirac evolution (and the announced HDCP/HDMI upgrade for future compatibility). |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 27, 2015 12:33:01 GMT -5
Heck; I can "upgrade" my 2012 Nissan Versa to a new Rolls Royce... I'll just keep the keychain and "upgrade" all the other parts Sorry, that is just unacceptable. Why can't we have a vehicle that does EVERYTHING? And is modular so it never, ever becomes obsolete. Oh, and price it under $500, too. Hmm. You got me thinking. Yeah I know crazy huh? I take an old TJ chassis, put in a "modern" Cummins twin turbo 6 cylinder in it. Dana 53 axles. 37s, and Warrin winch, and LED lights all over. Lots of Emotiva blue. Can't help it, love blue. And to really get everyone mad, yeah all the mod cons. Heck s killer CB too just because. Tranny and more coming up. Best all old AND New! |
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Post by geebo on Feb 27, 2015 12:36:45 GMT -5
Heck; I can "upgrade" my 2012 Nissan Versa to a new Rolls Royce... I'll just keep the keychain and "upgrade" all the other parts Hmm. You got me thinking. Yeah I know crazy huh? I take an old TJ chassis, put in a "modern" Cummins twin turbo 6 cylinder in it. Dana 53 axles. 37s, and Warrin winch, and LED lights all over. Lots of Emotiva blue. Can't help it, love blue. And to really get everyone mad, yeah all the mod cons. Heck s killer CB too just because. Tranny and more coming up. Best all old AND New! But you still won't have power windows unless you can come up with some kind of power zipper. |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 27, 2015 12:38:13 GMT -5
George Optima batteries with the gel cell tech got my back so that is ahem, all zipped up.  |
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Post by vcautokid on Feb 27, 2015 12:41:14 GMT -5
Heck; I can "upgrade" my 2012 Nissan Versa to a new Rolls Royce... I'll just keep the keychain and "upgrade" all the other parts Sorry, that is just unacceptable. Why can't we have a vehicle that does EVERYTHING? And is modular so it never, ever becomes obsolete. Oh, and price it under $500, too. Hey Keith I'll take all the Versa parts. I want to build a fun sand buggy! |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 27, 2015 12:46:22 GMT -5
What a turn of events today was. Certainly a roller coaster ride I went from being happy to see the firmware upgrade and other things coming in March as well as the HDMI 2.0 coming soon. I was expecting next to hear about a plan to add Atmos to the XMC-1 by perhaps separating the balanced and unbalanced outputs to give us 14.4 channels but instead got news about the XMR-1 with all the stuff I was hoping and expecting Emotiva to add on the XMC-1...,Dirac Unison, Atmos, DTS-x, etc. This plan while exciting for some who can afford and have been waiting for news of the XMR-1 ($3k-5k depending), it seems to imply the XMC-1 will not get Atmos and will not get Dirac Unison and possibly be obsolete well short of the advertised product life. If so, the history of the mid-priced pre pro continues with promise of upgrades that never materialize. I can't say I'm thrilled to see such a bleak future of a prepro I just bought 2 months ago. I may be jumping the gun but I haven't heard anything to contradict my points. It still doesn't change the sound quality of the XMC-1 which is great but the soldier looks to be ready to blow his trumpet at the funeral. Very annoying to say the least.... adjective 1. no longer produced or used; out of date. I always giggle when people jump to the "something new is coming out, my current unit is now obsolete" mindset. I assume you do not buy a new model of car every year. Do you buy a new mobile device every year? Your home... certainly it was not started and completed today and cannot possibly contain all the latest in green construction methods and high energy efficient appliances. All these things in your life you view as obsolete. If not, then the XMC certainly is not obsolete. Will the XMC-1 ever have more than a 7.2 setup? Probably not. Does that make the XMC obsolete? I can't think of why it would I believe it is and will continue to be a top-tier 7.2 processor for many, many years. It will be able to accept many of the new technologies for years to come. Will it have all the latest features, no. There is a difference between being able to accept and play the latest audio codec and being able to transform from a 7.2 channel processor to a 11.2 or whatever Atmos setup you want. If you bought a 7.2 processor expecting it to have the ability to transform into a box that holds every single new technology that comes out, even if that means 64 channels with 3 dedicated video outputs, I fear for your constant disappointment with every technology purchase you make. Sorry for your confusion that the XMC won't be the last processor you will have to buy, but it's one fine machine if you are looking for a 7.2 processor under $10K. I believe I said become obsolete well short of its advertised product life. Is a car's expected product life 1 year? Are you serious? Did I just jump to conclusion that the XMC-1's product life was expected to be 10-15 years and pull that out of my *bleep* or was that the propaganda provided by the president of Emotiva. Will I ever implement Atmos in my house? Who knows? What's the #1 reason why pre/pros' resale values suck compared to amplifier or speakers? They become obsolete. Is the XMC-1 obsolete now because the XMR-1 was announced? Nope, it has nothing to do with XMR-1. Does the XMC-1 sound any worse? Of course not. My system probably sounds better than 95% of the systems out there and I didn't forget that its mostly due to Emotiva. Did I expect Emotiva to implement Atmos to the XMC-1? Yes, I most certainly did. Did I expect the XMC-1 be the last pre/pro I buy? I did for the next 15 years until my boys graduate college (If I'm still alive). Do I want my money back? I do not - my whole point was related to the going concern of my investment. I'm not making any attacks but simply stating my point based on given statements by Emotiva. What are my chances of getting Atmos now? Well it was slim if the XMC-1 would have had an upgrade path to Atmos but now it's slimmer. My speakers aren't cheap (for me) and we know what the cost of another XPR-5 is so it would be probably another $5k min. to get 4 ceiling speakers and the XPR-5. I do appreciate the honest responses by Big Dan and Keith - it's really refreshing and if the Atmos implementation on the XMC-1 would have been half-baked, it would not be worth the development and me as a consumer the cost of upgrade. I was hoping it would have been some slick cost effective solution but if not, it is what it is. |
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Post by SticknStones on Feb 27, 2015 12:59:29 GMT -5
I think LSC heard you all loud and clear on the Obsolete discussion and I do agree with you all. I kind of scratch my head sometimes when they keep adding more speakers to the channel configuration. I am 5.2 and that is all I need. I sometimes equate this to those folks that keep going to have plastic surgery and are never satisfied and such. I also listen to music way more than movies so there is that side too! Most of the time I just think these vendors like Dolby keep trying to make their product relevant and a way to drive new revenue into their platforms as they have shareholders to answer to. Happy with 5.2 in my house and love the xmc.  |
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Lsc
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Post by Lsc on Feb 27, 2015 13:02:04 GMT -5
The problem there is that "in Internet years" 10-15 years is a very long time. Mono was the current format for darn near 100 years; stereo was the latest for a long time; surround sound made a go of it once before, and failed (remember SQ4 and CD4?); and now Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio have only lasted a few years as the latest and greatest. Now we have Atmos; in six months we're going to have DTS-X; do you really think we won't have Atmos 2 in a year, and DTS-XYZ the year after that, and then Atmos 3? None of us can even imagine what the "latest and greatest" format is going to be in ten years.... but I'll bet that it will require at least as much processing power as ten, or maybe 100, of the most powerful processors available today... that's just the way it is. It will be interesting to see when the current roller coaster stops.... after all, people do seem perfectly happy to buy a new $500 cell phone every few years to get the latest new feature, or that new 30 mega-pixel camera, or whatever. The reality is that, for many people, the "home theater wheel" stopped spinning at 5.1 channels (only about a quarter of "serious home theater owners" have gone from 5.1 to 7.2). There have also been formats like PLIIz that provided height channels, which were not widely adopted. There are also a LOT of Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio discs out there, which deliver 7.1 channels of very good quality uncompressed audio, in fact "as good as matters" to a lot of people, (and very few Atmos discs so far). Personally, I'm pretty sure that every Dolby disc will be "Atmos Enabled" by next year, (and every DTS disc will be "DTS-X-ified"). I'm equally sure that they will still sound very good in Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio, and that most listeners will be playing them that way... and at least half of them will probably still be doing it in 5.1 channels. (Bear in mind that, with a standard 5.1 or 7.1 channel speaker setup, without height speakers, Atmos will give you the same playback "experience" as True HD.) Keith, I think you should start doing the videos. How is your camera face? Again, I really appreciate your refreshing honesty. Thank you! Like I said before, this isn't the end of the world - as others are trying to turn my post into. Agreed on the formats and the new generation seems less interested in quality audio so who knows what the market will be...if no one buys any of this stuff, it's not going anywhere. I do know that the Dolby Atmos "Xtreme" theater by my house is phenominal and waaaay more immersive that my system at home and my goal was to get somewhat closer to this so my son doesn't say, "Sorry Dad, but the theater sounds way better"...ouch! It's all good, I'm one vacation (sorry wifey) away from getting the XMR-1 when it comes out. And 1 & 1/2 more vacations to support it properly with Revel M105/M106 and XPR-5. |
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jlamo
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Post by jlamo on Feb 27, 2015 13:08:37 GMT -5
I suppose that the xmc1 is an upgradeable 7.2 pre/pro. What does the claim mean to be "upgradeable ". Should this mean that the xmc1 should be able to upgrade to a device that is more than 7.2 channels? Or does it mean that it can upgrade to the next dsp format requiring up to 7.2 channels ? Or the next "better a/v connections or better video capabilities. If it was to be upgradeable to meet the needs of the user to be able to have more than 7.2 channels than why the need for a xmr model? Certainly it's fair to expect the xmc1 is "upgradeable" only to the extent to the 7.2 channels offered now. But I also would expect it to be upgradeable to the newest and best connections that may replace the hdmi or optical that is now the standard . As TV s change and bd players or pc and there connections evolve in the next 10 years than we will see what emotiva meant by "upgradeable" . I'll guess that it will meet the needs of most people .
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Post by khollister on Feb 27, 2015 13:11:14 GMT -5
Keep in mind that buying the XMC and later getting an XMR with the 25% discount is only about $800 more than buying the XMR as your first Emo prepro. And you can certainly unload an XMC for $800.
Frankly, even if I hadn't just bought the XMC (and given my decision to pass on Atmos/DTS:X/Aura for the foreseeable future), it is not clear that I would have continued to use the pre-outs from my Denon 4311 and waited for the XMR arrival. There is a very good chance the XMC would be all the 7.2 preamp I need/want. Meanwhile I have a year or so of great sound before the XMR shows up I suspect, and if it turns out that Unison is an OMG technology or the XMC has some incredible DAC, then I buy the XMR at a discount, sell the XMC cheap (and quick) and I'm no worse off money-wise than if I had waited.
Now if you haven't bought anything and are holding a 40% card, then things get a little more complicated. Although XMC-40% + XMR-25% = XMR or pretty close to it. Plus the resale of the XMC
I think it all comes down to 11.2 - If you want to Atmos, wait. If not, don't wait. Even taking the promised upgradeability/modularity at face value, I never really expected the XMC would get to 11.2. I made my purchase decision after I realized speakers in the ceiling wasn't happening. Otherwise I would already have a Marantz 7702 or be waiting on the 8802's to hit.
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Post by Gary Cook on Feb 27, 2015 13:27:51 GMT -5
The reality is that, for many people, the "home theater wheel" stopped spinning at 5.1 channels (only about a quarter of "serious home theater owners" have gone from 5.1 to 7.2). That's me, right there with the 75%, totally happy with a great sounding 5.1 system. As for Atmos, well there's not a lot of activity in the movie theatres in Australia. There was a big splash of publicity about Atmos in 2 theatres in Melbourne a year ago, but that's it. Not a lot since, no publicity, no raving reviews, quite a lot of the "didn't notice much difference" comments. This made me curious, if it's something I truly have to have at home then surely it would be an absolute must have for commercial movie theatres. Doesn't seem so, after a quick chat to an old movie sound guy friend of mine who now works for Village Roadshow (the big guys in movie theatres downunder with over 500 screens). The commercial reality, Atmos is expensive to implement and hasn't resulted in higher ticket prices or more people through the door. Plus there is considerable doubt about the competition, Auro and DTS UHD in particular. So they are holding out to see which way the movie studios move and how the various options can be made to work in the same theatre. Sounds kinda like the HT market actually. Cheers Gary |
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Post by monkumonku on Feb 27, 2015 13:31:52 GMT -5
ob·so·leteadjective 1. no longer produced or used; out of date. I always giggle when people jump to the "something new is coming out, my current unit is now obsolete" mindset. I assume you do not buy a new model of car every year. Do you buy a new mobile device every year? Your home... certainly it was not started and completed today and cannot possibly contain all the latest in green construction methods and high energy efficient appliances. All these things in your life you view as obsolete. If not, then the XMC certainly is not obsolete. Will the XMC-1 ever have more than a 7.2 setup? Probably not. Does that make the XMC obsolete? I can't think of why it would I believe it is and will continue to be a top-tier 7.2 processor for many, many years. It will be able to accept many of the new technologies for years to come. Will it have all the latest features, no. There is a difference between being able to accept and play the latest audio codec and being able to transform from a 7.2 channel processor to a 11.2 or whatever Atmos setup you want. If you bought a 7.2 processor expecting it to have the ability to transform into a box that holds every single new technology that comes out, even if that means 64 channels with 3 dedicated video outputs, I fear for your constant disappointment with every technology purchase you make. Sorry for your confusion that the XMC won't be the last processor you will have to buy, but it's one fine machine if you are looking for a 7.2 processor under $10K. I believe I said become obsolete well short of its advertised product life. Is a car's expected product life 1 year? Are you serious? Did I just jump to conclusion that the XMC-1's product life was expected to be 10-15 years and pull that out of my *bleep* or was that the propaganda provided by the president of Emotiva. Will I ever implement Atmos in my house? Who knows? What's the #1 reason why pre/pros' resale values suck compared to amplifier or speakers? They become obsolete. Is the XMC-1 obsolete now because the XMR-1 was announced? Nope, it has nothing to do with XMR-1. Does the XMC-1 sound any worse? Of course not. My system probably sounds better than 95% of the systems out there and I didn't forget that its mostly due to Emotiva. Did I expect Emotiva to implement Atmos to the XMC-1? Yes, I most certainly did. Did I expect the XMC-1 be the last pre/pro I buy? I did for the next 15 years until my boys graduate college (If I'm still alive). Do I want my money back? I do not - my whole point was related to the going concern of my investment. I'm not making any attacks but simply stating my point based on given statements by Emotiva. What are my chances of getting Atmos now? Well it was slim if the XMC-1 would have had an upgrade path to Atmos but now it's slimmer. My speakers aren't cheap (for me) and we know what the cost of another XPR-5 is so it would be probably another $5k min. to get 4 ceiling speakers and the XPR-5. I do appreciate the honest responses by Big Dan and Keith - it's really refreshing and if the Atmos implementation on the XMC-1 would have been half-baked, it would not be worth the development and me as a consumer the cost of upgrade. I was hoping it would have been some slick cost effective solution but if not, it is what it is. To me, being "obsolete" means to be rendered unusable for the purposes intended. Products cannot possibly foresee every new technology or use that will happen in the future and whether or not they can be adapted to incorporate such technology depends on the design of the product as well as the cost versus benefit of implementing that technology. I feel the question is, is what the XMC-1 lacks so compelling as to make it unfit as a currently offered product in the market? That this lack is so severe that it puts it at a serious disadvantage compared to its competition? It remains to be seen if Atmos is going to be widely adopted enough to be utilized by a significant enough percentage of the users of home theater equipment. Meanwhile who knows what other competing technology is waiting in the wings that will render Atmos "obsolete?" No such thing as bullet proof technology. |
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Post by snafujg on Feb 27, 2015 13:40:51 GMT -5
Reading the last couple of pages of this thread baffles me. We support and cheer and praise Emotiva for all things XMC-1, especially the upgradability. Then we get additional news on the XMR-1 and what is perceived as a limitation of upgrading the XMC-1, which a member decides to point out, and he is blasted for it? For simply asking that Emotiva honor their upgradability claim beyond what they originally said would be on the XMC-1? (HDMI 2.0, Full Dirac, REW, those are not upgrades, they were part of the product all along. Just not delivered with the initial batch)
For all of you that are taking issue with LSC's statements, ask yourself if you'd have the same reaction if Emotiva announced today that the RMC-1 was not going to happen and that the XMC-1 is all the further they were going? Because for some us, the XMC-1 is all the further we can go into our pockets to pay for a processor.
All we're asking is for Emotiva to hold true to there statements this processor will be relevant for 10+ years and don't let it go the route of the Theta Casanova that had the same promises that were broken.
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Post by mr on Feb 27, 2015 13:42:02 GMT -5
The XMC-1 does everything that most people actually need... and it does it very VERY well. Also remember that, at least so far, most of the people with "good 5.1 systems" haven't even moved up to 7.1 yet. 5.1 is likely the end of the road for me. Mrs MR would not like what I would have to do to the LR for 7.1., let alone configuring for ATMOS. It has to end somewhere. I am happy with the XMC-1. It is by far the best I have ever owned going back to 1971. |
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 27, 2015 13:45:21 GMT -5
I'm one of the 75% with a 5.1 system and am perfectly happy. Heck, most people that I work with don't have a surround sound system of any sort! They may have a soundbar because the internal speakers on their flatscreen just doesn't cut it. Or maybe a HTIB system.
Most non-audio/videophiles don't even know the names of the various surround formats. They have heard of "surround sound", but that's about it. And they don't care.
I can see the XMC-1 lasting me many years. It's not obsolete for me.
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cawgijoe
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Post by cawgijoe on Feb 27, 2015 13:49:18 GMT -5
As to upgradeability, I will most likely replace the HDMI board when available and am looking forward to the latest 3.0 firmware update. Will probably also spring for Direc Full.
Happy as a clam!
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Post by sandiway on Feb 27, 2015 14:08:04 GMT -5
Does anyone have any idea how much the HDMI board will cost? $499?
I guess the price of the XMC-1 with the new HDMI board will stay at $1999 or drop a little bit. So if you can wait, I guess it will pay to wait until the full HDMI 2.0 HDCP 2.2 board is standard.
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klinemj
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Post by klinemj on Feb 27, 2015 14:22:40 GMT -5
I would bet your estimate is high...quite high. But the best way to know is ask Emotiva.
Mark
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Obsolete? Are 2014 automobiles obsolete? Surely my 1997 Jeep Wrangler must be obsolete. But then, it can get me to work when someone in a 2015 couldn't get out of their driveway. So my 17 year old vehicle can still do things new models cannot. 
