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Post by pedrocols on Apr 14, 2015 10:22:10 GMT -5
"I wish you live closer so you can have a listen and make you also a believer" Hi,
This isn't about being a "believer" as you put it. I appreciate the differences between tube and solid state amplification. Certain tube amplifiers do generate a sound that is warm and pleasing. I was literally just asking the A/B question because I wanted to know how the comparison was done, plain and simple. Also, I take it from going back to the first post, It was an Emo. amp. that was replaced with the tube monoblocks.
I understand your point and I agree. However,A/B comparison (like any other audio subject)is subjective. Just be mindful that I am talking about strictly 2 channel listening at moderate listening level and not ear spliting spl or movies. It is just a matter of preference. Maybe you try them I you won't like them and maybe you try them and ditch your SS amps. |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 14, 2015 11:10:45 GMT -5
Hi,
This isn't about being a "believer" as you put it. I appreciate the differences between tube and solid state amplification. Certain tube amplifiers do generate a sound that is warm and pleasing. I was literally just asking the A/B question because I wanted to know how the comparison was done, plain and simple. Also, I take it from going back to the first post, It was an Emo. amp. that was replaced with the tube monoblocks.
"I understand your point and I agree. However,A/B comparison (like any other audio subject)is subjective." Well of course.....even though A/B switching is one of the best ways to rapidly compare sonic differences, the results are always subjective. When I got started many years ago with all this stuff, it was two channel, (although we just called it stereo) because there really wasn't anything else. Although there were some, even back in the sixties, who employed a center channel to "steer" the imaging. (Pretty slick for those days) And I had nothing but tubes. I used a single chassis Stromberg Carlson with a rather hefty power supply, and a Fischer Stereo preamp on a separate chassis. I did it all, swapped out tubes etc. I got into solid state amps. in the 1970's and simply preferred the sound over the tubes, plain and simple, personal preference. Then, in 2001 got into one system in my main room for BOTH music and movies. I went to great length to insure that leap would be with music always being the priority. In doing so, the movies that followed up actually could not sound better. A very careful selection of the Preamp processor was the key to this with high quality DAC employed. The last thing I did (which is why I'm here) was upgrading that processor to the Emotiva XMC-1. The amp. from 2001 remains in the system. This is Bob Carvers Sunfire Signature. This amp. (when you can find one) still goes for thousands even being a decade old or more. Of course, Carver is making it big these days with his tube amps. See the attachment. The front channels of this amp. allow you to select either voltage or current source connections. The current source connection is a voltage source, "modified" to yield a current source impedance of one ohm. This corresponds rather closely to the output impedance of a tube amplifier and is the dominant factor in the "soundstage delivery" that is sought after by most tube enthusiasts.
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 14, 2015 11:31:41 GMT -5
Bob Carver is well known for being able to make his amps sound any way you like...
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 14, 2015 12:00:29 GMT -5
Bob Carver is well known for being able to make his amps sound any way you like... .........and came close to partnering with Emotiva. (only a year or two ago) Fell apart and I do not know the story behind that. |
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Post by restless on Apr 14, 2015 12:05:09 GMT -5
The store (Natural Sound - Natick, MA) I purchased the MAG 1.7 from was pushing a tube amplifier by Rogers (http://rogershighfidelity.com/) out of Warick NY. After listening to the two stereo amps, they are very tempting, however, around $6K.
This sounds like a mono option for far less.
This is the sound of money leaving my pocket... whooosssshhhhh.....
I am in the Uxbridge, MA area, and he is close to me as well. Dang it.... but what will I do with all those XPA-1 mono's???
John
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Post by bub on Apr 14, 2015 12:16:36 GMT -5
Hey 405x5 i never said any of this was scientific So im not sure why this has gotten contentious .. As the thread title says. TubesRUs . Haha. No problem. I'm normally the difficult one. . So I kinda understand. I started this thread to get some support. To meet people who have tubes I'm new to tubes. Not audio. Just tubes.
And I was hoping to meet and learn from the many on this Forum with much more intelligence then myself.
Having said that , I've gone through less interrogation 30 years back when I had 14 bank robberies against me. I laughed then. . And I'm laughing now. No offense.
No A/B switch. I got up and changed speaker and RCA's. Old school. I was just giving my impression. To me it was easy to differentiate between the two. One was a straight line between speakers. The other had greater depth and width. ..Among other differences. If you have listened to tubes and didn't hear any difference why would it bother you that I did ?
I was using a Sherbourn PA-7 as an amp. When the time came to make a change ( I couldn't get my Nakimichi PA-7 to sound right either .. Originally owner but in storage for 20 years ) I made a decision to make a decision. I'v seen the error of my ways. So I try not to be rash or impulsive. Haha. Hasn't served me well.
So I did my due diligence .. And made a decision to get my feet wet with tubes. IIRC all I did was recommend to anyone who wanted to know more that they should give them a listen. I will do that again. You might say nope. Not for me. Cool with me. I'm not trying to convince you of anything. Was just stating what I hear.
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 14, 2015 12:16:40 GMT -5
"The store (Natural Sound - Natick, MA) " Natick, MA.....the original home of Allison Acoustics. (perhaps you had herard of them?) That is where this extremely rare pair of IC-20's were built (pictured in my Avatar).
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 14, 2015 12:35:32 GMT -5
Question - this thread has focused on tube versus SS amps, but what about tube preamps? Could one expect the same effect by using a tube preamp with a SS amp? Or does one need to use tubes in both the preamp and amp stage?
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 14, 2015 12:38:30 GMT -5
"im not sure why this has gotten contentious" "Not audio. Just tubes." " I've gone through less interrogation 30 years back when I had 14 bank robberies against me. I laughed then. . And I'm laughing now." contentious....oh no not at all my friend just having a spirited conversation, and enjoying it; aren't you?
How do you have one without the other? ("Not audio. Just tubes." )
Bank robberies? what's up with that?!
I never said it bothered me that differences (I agree) you heard with tubes were significant and obviously, satisfying . I simply asked you how you compared the different amps. I apologize if I somehow unwittingly put you on the defensive. Thanks for the answers/impressions on your transition to tube amplification. If you have a chance, go back a few posts and read about the Sunfire I'm using. You may (or not) find it interesting.
PS.....I would still like to hear that Jesse James story!
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TubesRUs
Apr 14, 2015 12:50:29 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrocols on Apr 14, 2015 12:50:29 GMT -5
Question - this thread has focused on tube versus SS amps, but what about tube preamps? Could one expect the same effect by using a tube preamp with a SS amp? Or does one need to use tubes in both the preamp and amp stage? Disagree about SS versus Tubes...I have tried all combinations and currently I use a passive preamp. Tube preamp and solid state was also sweet. |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 14, 2015 13:00:46 GMT -5
Question - this thread has focused on tube versus SS amps, but what about tube preamps? Could one expect the same effect by using a tube preamp with a SS amp? Or does one need to use tubes in both the preamp and amp stage? That sound that is most pleasing to fans of the "the tube" is coming primarily from the output stage of tube amplification. Of course, you can mix an SS preamp but most serious tube buffs prefer to go with tube pre amplification as well.
One thing I also experimented with myself was a CD player with a Tube digital analog converter. I took it out (California Audio Labs) on consignment for a full 24 hrs. It retailed for around 1500.00 and could not tell an iota of difference between that and a 200 Magnavox player connected to the same preamp on another output.
A few months after that, I was in Sears shopping and ventured into the electronics department. There I found one of the cheapo cd players on display with the very same (though unlabeled) remote that was supplied with the California Audio Labs player.
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Post by monkumonku on Apr 14, 2015 13:06:54 GMT -5
Question - this thread has focused on tube versus SS amps, but what about tube preamps? Could one expect the same effect by using a tube preamp with a SS amp? Or does one need to use tubes in both the preamp and amp stage? That sound that is most pleasing to fans of the "the tube" is coming primarily from the output stage of tube amplification. Of course, you can mix an SS preamp but most serious tube buffs prefer to go with tube pre amplification as well.
One thing I also experimented with myself was a CD player with a Tube digital analog converter. I took it out (California Audio Labs) on consignment for a full 24 hrs. It retailed for around 1500.00 and could not tell an iota of difference between that and a 200 Magnavox player connected to the same preamp on another output.
A few months after that, I was in Sears shopping and ventured into the electronics department. There I found one of the cheapo cd players on display with the very same (though unlabeled) remote that was supplied with the California Audio Labs player.
My only experience with tubes has been tube buffers. I've had ones from Yaquin and Grant Fidelity and I really didn't hear any difference using them in the chain versus being all solid state. I've heard the effect with a buffer is very subtle - even Grant Fidelity tells you so - but in this case it was so subtle I really don't think I could reliably differentiate between having a buffer in the chain versus not having one if I didn't know which was playing. I guess a tube amp and/or preamp would make more difference but their cost exceeds my curiosity. |
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Post by jmasterj on Apr 14, 2015 14:33:12 GMT -5
Question - this thread has focused on tube versus SS amps, but what about tube preamps? Could one expect the same effect by using a tube preamp with a SS amp? Or does one need to use tubes in both the preamp and amp stage?
I have the Yaqin MC-30L which has a tube preamp and tube power output. It has the most tube like sound of my three systems. The BADA-222 which is a Hybrid tube integrated, tube preamp mated to a solid state power section. It comes in second as far as sounding tube like. Then the Xiang Sheng 728A tube preamp with the XPA-100's is the combo that I think sounds the least tube like. So to answer your question you don't need tubes in both the preamp stage and power stage to hear the results.
Here's something interesting to note. One of our forum members ocezam I think purchased a pair of tube mono blocks, he then purchased a Xiang Sheng 728A tube preamp to go with them. He ended up selling the tube preamp because he said that the tube preamp with the tube mono blocks had too much tube sound. Almost to the point like he was hearing reverb. I believe he's using a XDA-2 for his preamp now with his Carver tube mono blocks. |
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Post by brubacca on Apr 14, 2015 17:20:19 GMT -5
I really enjoy my tube amp. If I thought that I could get away with a tube amp at my TV I would. Unfortunately I think that I'd be replacing output tubes all the time for Mickey Mouse and Teenage mutant Ninja Turtles.
I had tried a Grant Fidelity Tube Buffer and it really did nothing for me.
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Post by jmasterj on Apr 14, 2015 18:28:48 GMT -5
Liking tube sound is just a matter of personal taste, nothing more, nothing less. From my very first stereo I purchased in 1973 all my systems were solid state equipment up to 2002 almost thirty years. Through the years I had occasion to hear tube equipment. Namely McIntosh, but because it was out of my reach financially I never considered tube gear. Then in 2002 I had a home theatre with a Sony ES receiver as the workhorse. I had Polk speakers all around and it just seemed like something was missing from the sound.
Up until this point I had been strictly two channel. Turn table records, cassettes you know. So this was my first multi channel system. I was curious about the multi channel formats SACD, DVD Audio so I brought a lot of CD's in both formats. It was fun, but I missed the sound quality I had with my two channel system. So first I added a Carver TFM-35 to power the main speakers. This did improve the sound but it still wasn't what I was looking for sound wise. At that time Musical Fidelity had a X-10v3 tube buffer so I decided to buy it the day I put it in the system it simply opened up my systems sound. It bloomed and suddenly made since again. I've been tube every since.
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 14, 2015 18:36:32 GMT -5
I find silly when sometimes people wants you to "explain" or "make sense of" when you like some piece of gear over another. I bet if you look at everyone's systems here they are all different. Now try to "explain" or "make sense of" that phenomenon...  |
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Post by jmasterj on Apr 14, 2015 18:58:45 GMT -5
I find silly when sometimes people wants you to "explain" or "make sense of" when you like some piece of gear over another. I bet if you look at everyone's systems here they are all different. Now try to "explain" or "make sense of" that phenomenon... I agree |
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Post by deltadube on Apr 14, 2015 22:14:16 GMT -5
I just installed a pair of Bob Latino M-125 Mono's. My listening time has gone up appreciably . . This is my first attempt with tubes and I couldn't be happier. It's hard to describe without making it sound embellished . Soundstage is beyond the speakers. Imaging is stable. Add in 3d and I've become a believer. I had my ear two inches from my woofer and had to concentrate to pick up the very slightest hint of anything. It was so slight I still don't know ( or care ) if it was hiss or hum . SS is good. Very good. And has its place. Tubes are unbelievable . I hope Emotiva is listening. I waited a year and finally pulled the trigger after last podcast. I was pushing 850 Emo watts into 4ohm speakers at 60 on my pre. Now im very happy at 28. All other components , cables , placement are the same. There's a whole nother demographic out there looking for that something that is missing with SS .. I know Emotiva made their bones with SS. Might be time to expand your borders. In the meanwhile I'll just sit here and listen while they break in. what emotiva amp did you remove for the new tube amps Elliot? how about posting some nice pictures its ezzz too do i can do it i love a good picture lol cheers  |
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Post by bub on Apr 15, 2015 4:24:03 GMT -5
Hi nabob.. I think of my Sherbourn gear as Emotiva. So i apologize if I mislead you . Just made for the custom install audience but to my understanding owned, built and sold under the Jade umbrella of products ( Emotiva , Sherbourn ) until they decided to pull the plug on them. Made for some phenomenal deals on the Forum. I was using the PA-7 350 The specs call for 800 or 850 @4ohm through 3 channels. It's a powerhouse. Kinda like a XPR-7 . Without a doubt not optimum for two channel in the Emotiva family of amps. But more then capable of pushing my little floor standers. I was hoping to use it or them ( I have two ) to power my Apogee Duetta Sig series ( mint and original owner ) when I go ( again ) to get them in NewJersey on the 27th.. I'm not leaving without them.
At least until the promise of high power (300 watts ) mono tubes from Emotiva .. I still hope too. In the interim I went with Bob Latino's m-125 to get my feet wet. And as I've said previously. I'm blown away. Might not be someone else's cup of tea but I didn't buy them for someone else
I'm not here to bash Emotiva or SS at all. I'm firmly entrenched in the Emotiva product line but just like my motoring I like to experience the different application of technology. Between the cars, trucks , bikes , boat ( singular. ) wave runners I have 2 , 4. , 6 , 8 cylinder .. Supercharged, turbocharged and normally aspirated motors I like them all but some more then others and I've found that some excell in areas more then others.
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Post by soundofrockets on Apr 15, 2015 23:33:47 GMT -5
I have been eyeing those very amps. Did bob built them for you as well. Congrats on the purchase.
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