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Post by pedrocols on Apr 18, 2015 11:37:05 GMT -5
"Think of a tube amplifier like sunglasses.... there are crappy sunglasses which make things look funny, and there are good sunglasses that can make walking around in the sun much nicer than it was without them, and make things a lot clearer and easier to see. The fact that ALL sunglasses alter what you're seeing, and therefore aren't accurate, doesn't mean that they don't sometimes improve your viewing experience. It doesn't even mean that you shouldn't wear them in the house if you like the way your living room looks better with them on. (But you would be misleading yourself if you were to imagine that sunglasses were more accurate than clear glass; in fact, you really can't judge which sunglasses are better until you accept the fact that you're buying them because they alter things in a way that you find pleasant. You can't do a very good job of picking out which color of sunglasses you prefer if you keep insisting that they aren't colored.) In the case of things like "warmth" and "dimensionality", what's happening is simply that the tube amp is adding changes to the sound that sound nice. In some cases, even though the amp is not being accurate to the signal you feed into it, it may even actually produce a result that is more accurate to the original experience. For example, modern close-miked multi-track recordings are somewhat "dry" in terms of harmonic overtones; by altering the signal and adding some second harmonic distortion, a tube amp may end up being closer to what you would have heard if you were actually at the concert than what is on the recording. Likewise, if the actual recording was lacking in "depth" or "dimensionality", the phase shift that most tube amps cause may actually "create" a convincing enough illusion of dimensionality to compensate for that lack. (Just like many modern TVs can produce a convincing and pleasing illusion of "3D" from a 2D source - even though we all know they're faking it, they do an excellent job, and the result looks good.)" I love this answer from Keith and the "sunglass analogy."
And, I agree it's not Tubes VS. Solid State, it's which sound do your ears prefer; the one where the signal is MORE altered from the original (tubes) or more ACCURATE (solid state) and yet less pleasing to SOME ears.
It's interesting that engineers such as Bob Carver have solid state amplifiers that have a modified voltage source to obtain, at least some of the audible characteristics of that "tube sound". I suppose it would be quite the paradox if the tubes could be advanced enough to amplify as accurately as their solid state counterpart. Then, no need at all for them?
This is exactly why I am glad I hear with my ears and not with a oscilloscope....We could both wear the same exact sunglasses with the same lightning and still see things differently... |
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Post by pedrocols on Apr 18, 2015 12:01:17 GMT -5
"Think of a tube amplifier like sunglasses.... there are crappy sunglasses which make things look funny, and there are good sunglasses that can make walking around in the sun much nicer than it was without them, and make things a lot clearer and easier to see. The fact that ALL sunglasses alter what you're seeing, and therefore aren't accurate, doesn't mean that they don't sometimes improve your viewing experience. It doesn't even mean that you shouldn't wear them in the house if you like the way your living room looks better with them on. (But you would be misleading yourself if you were to imagine that sunglasses were more accurate than clear glass; in fact, you really can't judge which sunglasses are better until you accept the fact that you're buying them because they alter things in a way that you find pleasant. You can't do a very good job of picking out which color of sunglasses you prefer if you keep insisting that they aren't colored.) In the case of things like "warmth" and "dimensionality", what's happening is simply that the tube amp is adding changes to the sound that sound nice. In some cases, even though the amp is not being accurate to the signal you feed into it, it may even actually produce a result that is more accurate to the original experience. For example, modern close-miked multi-track recordings are somewhat "dry" in terms of harmonic overtones; by altering the signal and adding some second harmonic distortion, a tube amp may end up being closer to what you would have heard if you were actually at the concert than what is on the recording. Likewise, if the actual recording was lacking in "depth" or "dimensionality", the phase shift that most tube amps cause may actually "create" a convincing enough illusion of dimensionality to compensate for that lack. (Just like many modern TVs can produce a convincing and pleasing illusion of "3D" from a 2D source - even though we all know they're faking it, they do an excellent job, and the result looks good.)" I love this answer from Keith and the "sunglass analogy."
And, I agree it's not Tubes VS. Solid State, it's which sound do your ears prefer; the one where the signal is MORE altered from the original (tubes) or more ACCURATE (solid state) and yet less pleasing to SOME ears.
It's interesting that engineers such as Bob Carver have solid state amplifiers that have a modified voltage source to obtain, at least some of the audible characteristics of that "tube sound". I suppose it would be quite the paradox if the tubes could be advanced enough to amplify as accurately as their solid state counterpart. Then, no need at all for them?
I do not know what do you mean by "More alter from the original" because there are a looooooooot of excellent ORIGINAL recordings from musician that were ORIGINALLY recorded while played through, yeah you guessed it, a TUBE AMP, so how is that altered from the original. It would not be ALTERED if I play the recording with a SS amp? If you ask me I think that would be very inaccurate. |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 18, 2015 12:52:30 GMT -5
"I do not know what do you mean by "More alter from the original" because there are a looooooooot of excellent ORIGINAL recordings from musician that were ORIGINALLY recorded while played through, yeah you guessed it, a TUBE AMP, so how is that altered from the original. It would not be ALTERED if I play the recording with a SS amp? If you ask me I think that would be very inaccurate."
Sorry I cut the first paragraph of Keith's post that I referred to regarding this. Read this again and then see if it makes sense to you.
"When you're talking about power amps (and excluding the very few output-transformerless tube amps out there) tube power amps are NOT accurate. With a good solid state amp, what comes out is generally pretty close to what went in - only larger (the proverbial "straight wire with gain"). If you measure a tube amp, you will find that what comes out is usually not really very close to what went in. The specs will tell you how much of that is because of what distortion harmonics, and other types of distortion, and how much is due to phase shift, and how much is due to noise... but there's no question that the tube amp is changing the sound of what you feed into it." -Keith
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Post by bub on Apr 18, 2015 13:01:26 GMT -5
Somehow this thread has gone off tracks. All I said was I was happy with my amps and how they sound. But. Hey. Who cares
I will make another observation. Keith has been quoted numerous times. Guess I'm reading a different post. He very specifically says that there are times a tube amp will replicate the original experience BETTER because of differences in recording equipment . Is any thing perfect in audio ? I like what I hear. Any arguments ( Contentiousness ) about the quality of reproduction with a tube amp is null and void in my mind . I like what I hear.
That's why we all have different gear.
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Post by novisnick on Apr 18, 2015 13:05:53 GMT -5
Somehow this thread has gone off tracks. All I said was I was happy with my amps and how they sound. But. Hey. Who cares I will make another observation. Keith has been quoted numerous times. Guess I'm reading a different post. He very specifically says that there are times a tube amp will replicate the original experience BETTER because of differences in recording equipment . Is any thing perfect in audio ? I like what I hear. Any arguments ( Contentiousness ) about the quality of reproduction with a tube amp is null and void in my mind . I like what I hear. That's why we all have different gear. I like what you hear as well!!!  |
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 18, 2015 13:22:10 GMT -5
"Somehow this thread has gone off tracks. All I said was I was happy with my amps and how they sound."
You said a lot more than that and of course, in a place like this it will invariably lead to a "spirited" conversation....this is what you said in the beginning:
"I just installed a pair of Bob Latino M-125 Mono's. My listening time has gone up appreciably . . This is my first attempt with tubes and I couldn't be happier. It's hard to describe without making it sound embellished . Soundstage is beyond the speakers. Imaging is stable. Add in 3d and I've become a believer. I had my ear two inches from my woofer and had to concentrate to pick up the very slightest hint of anything. It was so slight I still don't know ( or care ) if it was hiss or hum .
SS is good. Very good. And has its place. Tubes are unbelievable .
I hope Emotiva is listening. I waited a year and finally pulled the trigger after last podcast. I was pushing 850 Emo watts into 4ohm speakers at 60 on my pre. Now im very happy at 28. All other components , cables , placement are the same.
There's a whole nother demographic out there looking for that something that is missing with SS ..
I know Emotiva made their bones with SS. Might be time to expand your borders.
In the meanwhile I'll just sit here and listen while they break in. "
One thing is for sure.......you are indeed happy with the change enjoy!
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TubesRUs
Apr 18, 2015 13:26:53 GMT -5
via mobile
bub likes this
Post by villock on Apr 18, 2015 13:26:53 GMT -5
"Somehow this thread has gone off tracks. All I said was I was happy with my amps and how they sound." You said a lot more than that and of course, in a place like this it will invariably lead to a "spirited" conversation....this is what you said in the beginning: "I just installed a pair of Bob Latino M-125 Mono's. My listening time has gone up appreciably . . This is my first attempt with tubes and I couldn't be happier. It's hard to describe without making it sound embellished . Soundstage is beyond the speakers. Imaging is stable. Add in 3d and I've become a believer. I had my ear two inches from my woofer and had to concentrate to pick up the very slightest hint of anything. It was so slight I still don't know ( or care ) if it was hiss or hum . SS is good. Very good. And has its place. Tubes are unbelievable . I hope Emotiva is listening. I waited a year and finally pulled the trigger after last podcast. I was pushing 850 Emo watts into 4ohm speakers at 60 on my pre. Now im very happy at 28. All other components , cables , placement are the same. There's a whole nother demographic out there looking for that something that is missing with SS .. I know Emotiva made their bones with SS. Might be time to expand your borders. In the meanwhile I'll just sit here and listen while they break in. " One thing is for sure.......you are indeed happy with the change enjoy! I see absolutely nothing wrong with his post |
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TubesRUs
Apr 18, 2015 13:49:38 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by bub on Apr 18, 2015 13:49:38 GMT -5
When have I ever said tube amps don't alter the sound ? I repeat. I like what I hear. ( granted a synopsis ) I think you would argue with yourself in a closet. But hey. As long as you are enjoying yourself
I know I know you said you were having a good time. Just something else for you to argue about. Haha.
I'm going out for a ran. Have at it.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 20, 2015 14:16:52 GMT -5
Another perspective on the exact same idea: all amps distort the sound in different ways. The question is which distortions make more of a difference to your ears. Neither amps are accurate when you really get down to it. But the ear maybe more sensitive to a different type of distortion present in solid state. For instance would a painting with a large black line splashed right down the center of it be more accurate vs a slight bit more contrast added to all the paint present overall. If you measured the two the large black line in the center may be presenting less of a distortion than increasing the contrast on ALL the paint. This contrast just so happens to make the colors appear to pop more in a pleasing way. But...more importantly which one are you really going to buy...the painting with a black line smack in the middle or a slightly increased contrast on the painting. Also.... a second point. We acknowledge tubes (and solid state) both have distortion. However we appear to be pointing solely towards the distortion in tubes as being the reason for it sounding better. Is that REALLY the case or just partly the case? Could tubes do certain things better than solid state in a more accurate manner that also contributes? How do we know it's ONLY the distortion causing a more preferred sound? What about tube amps from carver that present incredibly low distortion figures for tubes? Akin to the level of some solid state amps even. What makes them sound so pleasing? Wouldn't you expect them to sound even worse since they now have much lower distortion figures than other tube amps?  |
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TubesRUs
Apr 20, 2015 14:29:31 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrocols on Apr 20, 2015 14:29:31 GMT -5
So who is next in line for another theory (aka explanation or perspective) on why some people preferred tube amps over solid state....
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TubesRUs
Apr 20, 2015 14:32:59 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrocols on Apr 20, 2015 14:32:59 GMT -5
If you want to cut to the chase and save yourself a few hundres of words just ask me why I do like tubes amp better plain and simple.
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Post by garbulky on Apr 20, 2015 14:42:47 GMT -5
No need pedrocols, as you can see I have solved this debate completely. |
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TubesRUs
Apr 20, 2015 14:50:21 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by pedrocols on Apr 20, 2015 14:50:21 GMT -5
Thank you we need more members like you!
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Post by 405x5 on Apr 20, 2015 14:58:30 GMT -5
Wait a minute! I've got the solution!
A solid state amp. on one channel and a tube amp. on the other, creating a neutralizing effect.
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Post by audiobill on Apr 20, 2015 16:43:48 GMT -5
I've said it before, but I've heard many people switch from ss to tubes and won't consider reverting, but except for 405 haven't encountered the other case.
All us poor deluded fools!
I think it was the advent, klh and ar speaker inefficiency that created the lust for Phase Linear, Crown and even Dynaco 400/416 amps, not some perceived deficiencies in vacuum tube audio. And the most elite manfacturers out there, with long and respected histories, specialize in tube components.
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Post by ncred02 on Apr 20, 2015 18:25:59 GMT -5
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Post by audiobill on Apr 20, 2015 19:36:50 GMT -5
Maybe not your best first tube amp, these are very hot, very expensive and very low power.
Probably will sound sweet, but only with super efficient speakers.
Maybe a class ab push pull a better first foray.
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Post by ncred02 on Apr 20, 2015 19:42:08 GMT -5
That's what I needed to know. I did get him down a fair amount. With what you said I don't think my speakers will pair well
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Post by audiobill on Apr 20, 2015 19:47:58 GMT -5
The SET design is somewhat specialized, and the 300b is a very unique tube.
If you choose to go this way, spend some time studying and auditioning.
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Post by ncred02 on Apr 20, 2015 20:13:51 GMT -5
Thanks Bill
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